Eminence/Selium Surround build XO help needed - AVS Forum
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Old 08-06-2014, 09:43 AM - Thread Starter
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Eminence/Selium Surround build

Hi!

So I've had some eminence Beta 10's and Selium D220 Ti's for a couple months now with the intention of using them as surrounds. I just moved 3 weeks ago and am just about ready to start on the new theatre so figured I had better get these speakers built. I picked up some Birch and started on the boxes this week. They are all glued together, hopefully this weekend I'll be able to veneer them and router the speaker cutout. I didn’t take to many pictures of the build itself but I have a few pictures I can attach. If the pictures worked, you'll be able to tell my build was very much inspired by Erich's surround kit as well as the JTR slant 8.





Originally I had planned on using a MiniDSP as an active crossover on these. Now I'm realizing the pain it will be to dedicate 4 channels to 2 speakers as well as having to find some sort of amplifier for them. I have read a few builds with this speaker combo and have a schematic for the crossover but I really don’t know how to interpret it. It is a XO designed by Zilch and is the same one used in this build:

Budget Eminence Coaxial surround build!!!

I think I have figured most of it out and have it all in my PE shopping cart. I'm looking for someone's input on whether or not I'm ordering the right stuff and also what I'm missing.

1- Dayton Audio DNR-30 30 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part # 004-30
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...sistor--004-30

1- Dayton Audio DNR-16 16 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
Part # 004-16
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...sistor--004-16

1- Dayton Audio DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-430
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...citor--027-430

1- Dayton Audio DMPC-4.7 4.7uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-422
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...citor--027-422

1- Dayton Audio DMPC-0.47 0.47uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
Part # 027-406
http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...citor--027-406



Right now I have 4 different inductors in my cart. One of each of the required spec but one set are the higher quality perfect lay inductors. Are the higher quality ones worth the extra cost?


1- ERSE 1.5mH 14 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 266-360
http://www.parts-express.com/erse-15...-coil--266-360

1- ERSE 0.60mH 18 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 266-818
http://www.parts-express.com/erse-06...-coil--266-818

1- Jantzen 1.5mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 255-426
http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen...-coil--255-426

1- Jantzen 0.60mH 15 AWG Air Core Inductor Crossover Coil
Part # 255-412
http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen...-coil--255-412

I also plan to pad down the Selenium but I can do that after I have the crossover figured out.

These speakers will be powered with my Denon 4311ci and will be used as the rears with my JTR Triple 12's up front in a 5.2 setup.

I have tried attaching the schematic as well as 2 pictures of my build. I don’t know if they will work or not...
If not, here is the link to the XO schematic.




http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post1903985

Thanks!
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:54 AM
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Nice cabinet looks like your on your way,someone else can chime in about putting
the crossovers together. I got my co's already assembled.
I just did some DIY 8" coaxial/CD's for the Atmos ceiling (voice of God) speakers,
getting ready to install them recessed into the ceiling gavity.
Looks like you're quite the craftsman/carpenter. Good luck.



PeterV
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Old 08-06-2014, 01:38 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the compliments Peter. I think the craftsmanship can be attributed to good tools more than my own skill haha. I use a dado blade on everything I build for those beveled edges. It makes everything so easy to line up and glue together.

8" coax's in the ceiling will make for a pretty serious Atmos system! That will be awesome. Good luck with it!
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:28 PM
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The first crossover you linked to uses 3.5 mH for L2 and the second (ewave standard) uses 1.5 mH. Zilch used the 18 gauge iron-core inductors to maximize the "econo" portion of the design...assuming you are going with the coax http://www.parts-express.com/erse-35...-coil--266-560 The 0.6 mH would be the 20 gauge air-core http://www.parts-express.com/jantzen...-coil--255-040

I doubt you could hear an improvement with the "better" inductors.

Don't forget the adjustable L-pad http://www.parts-express.com/speaker...8-ohm--260-252 (or get one, adjust to taste, measure resistance, and replace with fixed L-pad (2 resistors).

Looks like you are good to go.

Good luck!
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Old 08-07-2014, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for pointing out the differences on L2. I didn’t notice that. I will just be using whatever Zilch used in his design. I've heard good things about it and since I know very little about passive crossovers I don’t want to stray too far from what he did. I'm not sure which of the schematics is the original zilch design so can’t be sure if he used the 1.5mH or the 3.5mH inductor. Do you have a suggestion on which one to use?

What is "LP1" on the HF side of the crossover? I assume LP is low pass but I thought I should ask. And is there anything else I need for it?

Thanks again. I got some more work done on the boxes last night. They are both glued together now and just need a bit of sanding before the veneer goes on.



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Old 08-07-2014, 12:56 PM
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Subbed! I have been using this design from zilch for several years now and absolutely love them. I have some other stuff in the works too, but this design is a real performer for sure.

(European models do not accept banana plugs.)

 

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Old 08-07-2014, 01:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
Subbed! I have been using this design from zilch for several years now and absolutely love them. I have some other stuff in the works too, but this design is a real performer for sure.

haha thanks beast. I subscribed to your budget eminence build a few months ago and that's what really got me going on this build.
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Old 08-07-2014, 04:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DevonDeyholos View Post
Thanks for pointing out the differences on L2. I didn’t notice that. I will just be using whatever Zilch used in his design. I've heard good things about it and since I know very little about passive crossovers I don’t want to stray too far from what he did. I'm not sure which of the schematics is the original zilch design so can’t be sure if he used the 1.5mH or the 3.5mH inductor. Do you have a suggestion on which one to use?

What is "LP1" on the HF side of the crossover? I assume LP is low pass but I thought I should ask. And is there anything else I need for it?
Pretty sure the 3.5 mH is for the coax build....beast can confirm since he actually built them (or something very close).

LP1 is the adjustable L-pad
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Old 08-07-2014, 04:28 PM - Thread Starter
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It appears you're right. Zilch changed it to 3.5mH but never changed his schematic to reflect it. He had someone else on diyaudio do up that second schematic with the correct inductor value in it.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ml#post1903985

Thanks again! I'm ready to order now.
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Old 08-08-2014, 08:09 AM - Thread Starter
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I had some time last night and was able to get some washers sunk into the boxes for a magnetic grills. I also routered one of the speaker holes but it was getting too late and too noisy to do the other. I sunk the speaker in about 1/4" around the mounting ring but it doesn’t look as flush as I had hoped it would. I didn’t realize that foam surround all the way around the speaker was as tall as it is. The actual speaker basket is pretty flush with the front face of the box but that foam gasket sticks out about 1/2 inch. I would have had to do a double thick baffle to get it completely flush. It will be covered in a grill most of the time anyway so it’s not a big deal but would have been nice to have it all flush. Anyway, here it is!

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Old 08-09-2014, 10:33 AM
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What are you doing for veneer?
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Old 08-11-2014, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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I have some left over paper backed veneer from my subwoofer build that I'll be using. I forget what kind of wood it was though.



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Old 08-12-2014, 11:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I had hoped to be done the veneer by now but the contact cement I tried to use must have gone bad. I started applying it and it gummed up and left clumps all over the box. I need to let it sit for a few days and then sand it off. I'll get some new stuff and hopefully be able to get more done this weekend. Last night I made some magnetic grills and cut the holes for the terminal plates.

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Old 08-12-2014, 08:10 PM
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Time to get new contact when it starts to turn from snot to boogers. Of course you know this now
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Old 08-18-2014, 09:26 AM - Thread Starter
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I had some time over the weekend and got the veneer put on. They need a little sanding and touching up but hopefully I can get the stain on soon. The XO parts should also be here this week so I can start getting those built.





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Old 08-25-2014, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I got the stain done this weekend. This picture was just with the first coat. I did a second and it just darkened it up a bit and evened everything out.



Also I did the crossovers! Right, I hope... This was my first time doing it. I need to get it all hooked up and figure out how much I want to pad down the C/D. Once I have that figured out I'll add the appropriate resistor to the x/o board and be done!

If anyone sees any glaring errors with my crossovers let me know!



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Old 08-29-2014, 08:13 AM - Thread Starter
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I finished my grills last night. I only used magnets on the grill itself, under the veneer I just put some metal washers but it doesn’t have quite the clamping force I had hoped. It would have been better to use magnets under the veneer as well. I think it should still work fine though and to be honest I'm not sure if the grills will even go on the speakers or not. I just wanted the option to have grills or not.

I'm going to spend some time working on them this weekend and will hopefully get the final resistor figured out to pad down the C/D.




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Old 08-29-2014, 11:27 AM - Thread Starter
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I think if I had called this thread "7.4 1099 & marty build!!" I would be getting a lot more thread activity haha. But for those still reading, quick question... It's a little blurry as to how I use the L-pad to measure resistance. This is the L-pad I am going to use.

http://www.parts-express.com/speaker...8-ohm--260-262

Which two connectors should I put my multimeter on to check resistance? I played around with it the other day and seemed to be able to get the resistance to change by turning the dial no matter which connectors I was on. Going from connectors 1, 2 and 3 in my attached picture, which ones are positive and negative? And which two should I use to check the resistance? Thanks for the help!


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Old 08-29-2014, 11:42 AM
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Haha, I am staying tuned Boxes look fantastic man, but I have no idea on the lpad thing.

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Old 08-30-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Beast. Are you using an Lpad or anything to pad down your selenium?
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Old 08-30-2014, 04:39 PM - Thread Starter
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I got everything hooked up and started attempting to pad down the CD today but am getting some unexpected results... I ran the 10"eminence woofer on its own to see where it was dropping off and where the CD would be kicking in. To my surprise the eminence didn't really drop off significantly until 5k hz. I believe this was supposed to be a 1800hz crossover. So then I ran the selenium and the eminence together with no Lpad or any kind of padding and in this test the CD kicks in at 535hz. Not at all what I expected.


You can see the results in the below graph.
Blue line: Eminence Beta 10CX on its own
Black line: No padding
Red line: 22ohm padding





What is the best way to measure this? Right now I'm just doing it in the middle of the room with the speaker facing directly upwards and the microphone 12" from the center of the speaker. The room is quite big and is open into the rest of the house. It's the closest I can get to anechoic chamber. And its raining today so I don't want to go outside. I was attempting a basic nearfield measurement, I don't know how to shelf my measurements or do much more than just take a measurement.


My initial thoughts are that I must have done something wrong on the crossover or that I'm measuring wrong. Any help would be great!
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Old 08-30-2014, 05:10 PM
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Old 08-31-2014, 12:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
We need more info on how you did those grills.
I guess I should have taken some pictures while gluing the fabric on but there is a picture of the bare grill a bit further up in the thread. It's just 1/8th mdf with some magnets in it. Obviously staples or anything would have gone through so used a hot glue gun to mount the fabric on the frame. Works really well and I think is a lot easier and faster than staples.

some more thoughts on the speakers... I have them set up side by side with some Polk RTI A3 book shelf speakers and they sound awful next to the polks. Just super muddy and overall strange. Listening to coldplay "fix you" there is some drum cymbals in the background which come through clear and detailed on the polks and almost cannot be heard at all with my DIY speakers. I can turn the CD up to get more of that detail back but then they are way way to bright and overpowering the lower frequencies.

Also, when pushed loud the speaker made my Denon 4311 go into protection mode a few times. I hooked my multimeter up to the speakers inputs and its reading 1ohm. Something isn't right on the crossover for sure. I have no idea what though.
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Old 08-31-2014, 07:53 PM
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Post a photo of your crossover. Maybe someone can spot something wired wrong.
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Old 09-02-2014, 08:07 AM - Thread Starter
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These are the two pictures I took if anyone can tell anything from them. I listened to them some more over the weekend and noticed that at lower volumes they sound fine but when I start to push them all the sounds just seem to blend together and it lacks any kind of definition. At the same volumes my Polk bookshelf speakers sound good.


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Old 09-02-2014, 08:23 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is a quick wiring diagram I made. One thing I just thought of... Notice how my capacitors are wired. They are soldered in (I think parallel) but the wire also goes straight through so some of the current can bypass the capacitor. Should there be a break in the actual wire so that all the current is forced to go through the capacitor?



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Old 09-02-2014, 08:29 AM
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Definitely not right, the way it's wired now it's as if the capacitors aren't there at all.
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Old 09-02-2014, 08:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post
Definitely not right, the way it's wired now it's as if the capacitors aren't there at all.
It makes sense why it doesn’t sound right then haha. Is the LF side wired right? And on the HF side if I just snip out the section of wire that is bridging between the capacitors it should all be good right?

Like this?

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Old 09-02-2014, 02:03 PM
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Hard to see but it almost looks like you did the same thing to the big iron core inductor, hooked it up in 2 places but left the wire shorting it out. Sorry on my phone today, heading out the door earlier and now on a lunch break. But yeah you've been pretty much running no crossover at all lol. Hopefully someone with some more time will chime in to help figure it out.
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Old 09-02-2014, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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You're 100% right. It is all making sense now. You can see from my REW screenshot that the woofer was going up to almost 5khz before dropping off and I think this is supposed to be a 1800hz cross. I was so confused. Edited my picture agian. these 3 wires need to be snipped, I believe.
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