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Old 08-22-2014, 12:48 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
3000 dsp is the optimum power if you have d4's and they're wired for 2 ohm load per channel.
Thats exactly what I am running. Ok, I guess this will go on the backburner until the mic comes in next week and I figure out how to measure. I hate waiting for mail. No movies this weekend I guess

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Old 08-22-2014, 01:09 PM
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Old 08-22-2014, 01:19 PM - Thread Starter
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try playing with the phase / delay
I tried the phase the first night and no audible difference. I will try with my app though until the mic comes in.
Nothing with delay either. What is the theory on setting the delay?

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Old 08-22-2014, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PM-Performance View Post
Thats exactly what I am running. Ok, I guess this will go on the backburner until the mic comes in next week and I figure out how to measure. I hate waiting for mail. No movies this weekend I guess

Do you have an Audyssey mic? It's not as accurate as a UMIK, but it is more than capable of doing what you need to try and resolve these issues instead of waiting for yours to come in the mail.

Check this thread: Measurement Mic Shootout (EMM-6, WM-61A, RS 33-2055, Audyssey)
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:13 PM - Thread Starter
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I do and read that before as a matter of fact but wasn't sure it would work well.

I read for RCA y adapter to 3.5 mm headphone port to run test tones? Where do the road run into the reciever? Any open analog inputs?
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:28 PM
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You're the only other person to describe my same headaches. Bass in music is weak, bass in movies is strong.
My measurements show no crazy dips or spikes. I'll be watching this thread to see how you make out with measurements.

This is with a full vertical marty on an inuke 3000 with the limiter at about 1100 watts. The purple line includes my HSU VTF-15H




I had the same problem when I just had two VTF-15H's and turning them 180 degrees to fire into the walls in their corners seemed to help a lot. People have said it shouldn't make a difference but it did for me. I haven't tried it with the marty yet because it weighs 200 pounds or something, and I don't really want it facing backwards into my room.
I also have built a second martycube since doing that graph which I haven't measured yet.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:55 PM
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"You're the only other person to describe my same headaches. Bass in music is weak, bass in movies is strong."


this is almost certainly a phase/delay problem. if the phase of the sound coming out of the sub is 180 degrees out of phase with the sound coming out of the mains, it will CANCEL and sound weak as heck. the reason that the very low bass is not affected is because very low bass interacts with the room more and is therefore less sensitive to phase.


if using an avr, set the distance/delay on the mains and the sub to be the same. then slowly add delay to the MAINS until it is loudest at the crossover frequency. much easier to do with measurement than by ear though.


the confusion on the amp is the language in the manual and the functionality of the crossovers is not consistent. bi-amp mode mode 1 routes the input to both output channels. TYPICALLY this is done for a sub/mid-top pair. BUT, the crossover settings are completely flexible which means that the signal can be run as a subwoofer output on both channels.
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Old 08-22-2014, 03:56 PM
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Music with my full and minimarty (when I had them) was good and I found music with cube and micro-cube better. Now I know it shouldn't sound better with smaller ported cab but subjectively it just does for me. The bass integrates with my mains better. I tried all different settings with all models. Maybe its just my room... idk.
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:18 PM
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"Music with my full and minimarty (when I had them) was good and I found music with cube and micro-cube better."


at all drive levels...or only at 'war volume'?

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Old 08-22-2014, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"You're the only other person to describe my same headaches. Bass in music is weak, bass in movies is strong."


this is almost certainly a phase/delay problem. if the phase of the sound coming out of the sub is 180 degrees out of phase with the sound coming out of the mains, it will CANCEL and sound weak as heck. the reason that the very low bass is not affected is because very low bass interacts with the room more and is therefore less sensitive to phase.


if using an avr, set the distance/delay on the mains and the sub to be the same. then slowly add delay to the MAINS until it is loudest at the crossover frequency. much easier to do with measurement than by ear though.
That's the most helpful bit of info I've read yet. I'll try to find time to do that next week. So each time I adjust the distance of the mains in the AVR, I should measure with REW, and when the graph maxes at 80hz, I'm done? I assume therefore if I change the distance again I'd see it drop at 80hz?

And how come the weakness isn't reflected in the graphs I've already produced?
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Old 08-22-2014, 04:30 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, I will play either later tonight or tommorow.
Could the xover on the AVR for subs and mains cause any issues also? All speakers xover at 80hz and Subs at 120. Should I lower the sub xover to blend in closer to where the mains will roll off?

Also should I just set the distance in the Inuke to 0 and work on distance only in the AVR settings where I can control both on the same screen? And then just phase if needed, gains and EQ in the Inuke?

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Old 08-22-2014, 04:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"Music with my full and minimarty (when I had them) was good and I found music with cube and micro-cube better."


at all drive levels...or only at 'war volume'?
At all levels. Remember that most of the music in my listening is 40-90hz bass. Martycube is better then larger subs in 50-80hz range. Minimarty and full only really pull ahead in sub 30hz range where not much music content is.
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Old 08-22-2014, 06:39 PM
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That's the most helpful bit of info I've read yet. I'll try to find time to do that next week. So each time I adjust the distance of the mains in the AVR, I should measure with REW, and when the graph maxes at 80hz, I'm done? I assume therefore if I change the distance again I'd see it drop at 80hz?

And how come the weakness isn't reflected in the graphs I've already produced?
It appears you only have your sub graphs posted, so the the subs are fine on their own. But when combined with the mains, the frequencies cancel out and the graph wouldn't look like that on a full range sweep.
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Old 08-22-2014, 06:45 PM - Thread Starter
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I gotta play more tommorow, but I got my audessy mic working, just no test tones coming from the laptop to the stereo.

I hooked from the mic out on the laptop to two diff sets of RCA inputs on my avr and still only feeds from the laptop speakers.

Mine if the rew steps mention on setting throug analog from what I saw. Just hdmi which I don't have.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:31 PM
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"At all levels. Remember that most of the music in my listening is 40-90hz bass."


i understand. i was just curious if you could actually pick out the difference at all listening levels. that almost makes me wonder if it is something else that changed in the comparo, such as a minor difference in placement or something.


"Martycube is better then larger subs in 50-80hz range."


maybe it is an impedance shift, that changes where the sub pulls power in the frequency response, and in turn what that implies for current-based distortions/stored energy etc. hhmm..

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Old 08-22-2014, 07:39 PM
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Quote:
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It appears you only have your sub graphs posted, so the the subs are fine on their own. But when combined with the mains, the frequencies cancel out and the graph wouldn't look like that on a full range sweep.
I'll try a full range sweep next time. But shouldn't that part of the graph (what I posted) be unaffected by the addition of the mains because of the 80hz crossover? Except for some changes perhaps right around the cross?
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:41 PM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"At all levels. Remember that most of the music in my listening is 40-90hz bass."


i understand. i was just curious if you could actually pick out the difference at all listening levels. that almost makes me wonder if it is something else that changed in the comparo, such as a minor difference in placement or something.


"Martycube is better then larger subs in 50-80hz range."


maybe it is an impedance shift, that changes where the sub pulls power in the frequency response, and in turn what that implies for current-based distortions/stored energy etc. hhmm..
I don't know . It might be just in my room. Bass just seems smoother and more dynamic . Not huge difference , maybe 10-15% better.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:46 PM
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I'll try a full range sweep next time. But shouldn't that part of the graph (what I posted) be unaffected by the addition of the mains because of the 80hz crossover? Except for some changes perhaps right around the cross?
the subs and speakers still play above and below the crossover somewhat. But a full range sweep will show if there's a big null somewhere because of phase issues.
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:47 PM
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Alright thanks
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:49 PM
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"Could the xover on the AVR for subs and mains cause any issues also? All speakers xover at 80hz and Subs at 120. Should I lower the sub xover to blend in closer to where the mains will roll off?"


if the avr is performing the crossover duty for the sub, any additional low pass crossover that you add to the mix can spell disaster for phase/integration. if the avr is performing crossover duty, turn the low pass off on the inuke.

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Old 08-22-2014, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
"Could the xover on the AVR for subs and mains cause any issues also? All speakers xover at 80hz and Subs at 120. Should I lower the sub xover to blend in closer to where the mains will roll off?"


if the avr is performing the crossover duty for the sub, any additional low pass crossover that you add to the mix can spell disaster for phase/integration. if the avr is performing crossover duty, turn the low pass off on the inuke.
Should the avr or inuke handle lpf ? Is there any difference ?
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Old 08-22-2014, 07:53 PM
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avr should. otherwise you get a double lpf and phase issues. you can't get rid of the lpf on the avr, but you can on the inuke.
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Old 08-22-2014, 08:08 PM
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"Should the avr or inuke handle lpf ? Is there any difference ?"


great question. might want to add it to the faq.


most avr's place a 4th order lowpass (24db/oct) filter on the sub at the crossover frequency**.


jointly, they place a 2nd order electronic high pass on the mains, which taken together with the (assumed) natural/acoustic 2nd order (12db/oct) rolloff of the mains (which frequently isn't even the case), combines to create a NET 4th order 24db/oct high pass.


since the NET slope of the crossovers between the main and the sub are the same, phase rolls over 360 degrees, but the drivers are in phase at all frequencies.


if someone were to slap an additional 2nd or 4th order electronic low pass in the inuke, then phase would rollover 540-720 degrees, but importantly, it would NO LONGER BE A MATCH AT ALL FREQUENCIES, so some frequencies would be in phase and other would be out of phase with the result being unpredictable cancellations at various points in the frequency response.


best to leave the low pass filter on the inuke OFF and let the AVR handle those duties.


**here, by crossover frequency, it is meant something like 80hz. this is completely separate from the protective high pass filter on the sub which would typically be around 15-20hz or so and that one should be run in the amp/inuke/dsp.

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Old 08-22-2014, 08:16 PM
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My processor allows you to pick 12db or 24db slope for sub. Just stick with 24 ?
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Old 08-22-2014, 11:49 PM
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that would probably be the best starting point. lots of theories on this one too though. there are several reasons why various combinations may work better or worse. thx spec is 4th order low pass at 80hz on the avr for the subs.

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Old 08-23-2014, 07:52 AM - Thread Starter
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OK, Here are some charts I took this morning and played with phase. I dont really understand the phase part, so I will need help on this.

First screen will show the initial settings when I plugged in.Denon set @120 hz and both in 0 phase

Second will be denon set to 80 xover with no other changes

third will be both subs at 180 phase

fourth will be 1 sub at 180 phase.

fifth is a 20-500 hz capture with 1 sub @180 phase to see how the mains interact.
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Old 08-23-2014, 08:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is more work i did.

I found if I do bring them in the room more, I get a smoother graph and more output. I set the phase to 0 on both for this reading too and looking better.

purple is about 3-4 ft from the outsides of my mains. Green was more further out by a few feet getting closer to the corners where the first sets of graphs were taken.
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:09 AM
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PM

You should not shift smoothing between the graphs. Its hard to see what differences originate from different smoothing and from altering settings in the inuke and the AVR.
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Old 08-23-2014, 09:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Sorry, i think I only changed the smooting with the one graph.

here id s graph showing the huge dip i was getting. I was able to eq it out significantly, but still trying to figure out how to get the dip out before it.
Here is a screenshot of the eq so far without me knowing wtf i am doing.
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Old 08-23-2014, 10:18 AM
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20db null in 40 to 60hz. Yeah that would make music suck!
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