Best drivers for extreme midbass punch? - Page 2 - AVS Forum
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post #31 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 04:05 PM
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power handling/lack of thermal compression is a dimension that should be added to tux's list (it is implicit, but explicit on this point is key).


that is a big part of what separates the $300-400 drivers from the $150-200 drivers.


I'm not sure that anybody needs 8 18lw2400 drivers. 2 should be awesome. 4 is overkill.


'apollo' is an option on the td18h+ that allows greater thermal capability.


and, ds, I wasn't being snarky. we may not have a comprehensive set of graphs that explain the 'sound' of horns. sound intensity plots, for example, may be revealing with respect to horn dynamics. or it may be something else.
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post #32 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 04:06 PM
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I love this thread.


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post #33 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
power handling/lack of thermal compression is a dimension that should be added to tux's list (it is implicit, but explicit on this point is key).


that is a big part of what separates the $300-400 drivers from the $150-200 drivers.


I'm not sure that anybody needs 8 18lw2400 drivers. 2 should be awesome. 4 is overkill.


'apollo' is an option on the td18h+ that allows greater thermal capability.


and, ds, I wasn't being snarky. we may not have a comprehensive set of graphs that explain the 'sound' of horns. sound intensity plots, for example, may be revealing with respect to horn dynamics. or it may be something else.
I don't take your comments in such a manner, you are one of the most helpful people here, I know on here there seems to be a focus on measurements. I agree that there is more information to measure than simple frequency,THD,phase and so on. I recall there was a thread about velocity. It is interesting that when space isn't an issue (in the HF) a horn is often used.
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post #34 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm starting to love this threat too, please continue!

I've done some calculations and having 8 woofers the maximum internal volume of each separated enclosure would be about 185L/ea (6.5ft3), which is more than what I currently have for the two LMS Ultra sealed boxes which are about 175L/ea (6.2).

Before any estimations; maybe just do 4x of 18LW2400 and save some space for a potential couple of additional ultras for a total of 4. If the 18LW2400 drivers delivers on the promise of LTD02 and with quad ultras I will have more than enough. Maybe check out those horn loaded setups for the midbass octaves.

The sub bass of the ultras are perfectly fine now imo, but I keep seeing how people rave that 1 is good, dual are great but quads are epic. Going from 1 to 2 was a big change imo, but also went up in size from 100L (3.5ft3).

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post #35 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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LTD02: Estimating now, and 4 of the 18lw2400 will give stellar performance looking only at the frp. Doesn't even seem like there is a need to look at other drivers, so before I pull the trigger on these: If you were in my shoes and had a flexible budget as there will only be 4 of them, would you still pick them in light of that list of important specs for this application?

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post #36 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 07:03 PM
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it is a problem with a range of solutions and they can all work well.


for the region that you are targeting, roughly 60-150/200hz or so, the 18lw2400 would be a good choice. most of the good driver manufacturers have something comparable, so part of it depends on what you can get for a good price. that is coming at it from a "bottom up" approach. the 18lw2400 is the better performing version of 18sounds 18lw1400 which was there closest 18 to jbl's 2242.


as alpha niner suggests, the other way is to come at it from the "top down" using instead something like the 2226h, two per side, to supplement your mains. that might even be the better approach because it would give great flexibility for selecting the crossover point on the top end. the closest thing in the 18 sounds line up there would probably be the 15LW1401. William cowan** tested it back to back against the 2226h and concluded the 15lw1401 performed a little better. another option is the 15nd930, which is the woofer that was (is?) used in the unity 215 and that speaker has serious midbass. both of the latter drivers run about $300 or so. 2226h pricing too high, unless you can get them semi-wholesale.


any of the 15's could be horn loaded later should you actually need/want another order of magnitude increase in sensitivity.


** his site uses frames, so to link to the page directly go here: http://www.cowanaudio.com/unity.html

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post #37 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 07:10 PM
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btw, I see your problem. your mains are borderline. in exchange for offering greater extension, they are a bit compromised on sensitivity/power handling/max uncompressed spl.


if for some reason you want to keep it 'all jbl', I'm pretty sure that driver was available in a 2x15 cab. I just can't remember the model number off hand. lots of 2225's used too (and 2226's for that matter).

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post #38 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 07:19 PM
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the 4343b appears to cross to its woofer at 300hz. any of the 15's mentioned can do that no problem, so maybe one solution is to grab a pair of 15's and good power, then actively cross them in at 300hz to your mid/top of the 4343b. just thinking out loud...

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post #39 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 07:27 PM
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predessor to the venerable srx, the 4870 had dual 2225's





interestingly, even after all the hype surrounding the new drivers, jbl brought back the srx line (though renamed the stx line :-) which uses the 2226)


http://www.jblpro.com/www/products/p...5#.U_f7dblOW00


sorry for being all over the map. :-)
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post #40 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 08:04 PM
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Good addition to the list LTD. I thought it in my head but didn't type it. Sensitivity alone isn't enough.

Midbass is a demanding bandwidth as the room typically robs you in the area, so haven't the power handling to cope with all the demands is top of the list. Thanks LTD.
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post #41 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 03:33 AM
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If it hasn't already been mentioned, the setup/integration and room are key for punch. Playing with different responses and delays/phase on your DSP will yield different results.

Just a FYI, have heard some of the 18 sound drivers including the 15LW2400 in sealed and ported cabs and it did not do a good job, YMMV.
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post #42 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 05:26 AM
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was it setup and integrated properly, as well as free of room problems? boundary cancellations are notorious for punching holes in mid bass response. that said, a single is only ~94db sensitivity through the 100-200hz region so multiples would be required.

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post #43 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
was it setup and integrated properly, as well as free of room problems? boundary cancellations are notorious for punching holes in mid bass response. that said, a single is only ~94db sensitivity through the 100-200hz region so multiples would be required.
It was two drivers stacked near field (about 2 feet I estimate from memory) and the response was measured and tweaked to be smooth while trying various curves. As can be expected a bump in the 100-150Hz region has a different punch to it than a bump around 70Hz.

I found the ported cabinet to have a much "slower" and muddy sound to it compared to the sealed cabinets and is one reason why I think ported is a compromise. Sealed had more "attack" as can be expected but it doesn't come close to a horn, a bit strange considering a sealed cabinet should have the best impulse response.

Also had tested 4 of the 21LW1400 along with the 15s, they weren't good either. I much preferred the 15s over the 21s for punch but of course the 21s got louder and had more low end.
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post #44 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 07:20 AM
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post #45 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 11:08 AM
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I use two jbl 2226h per main in my setup. Adding dual 18 jbl 2242's per left and right front as stereo subs took everything to a whole different level. It also smoothed out the frequency response. I run them from 35-150hz and sum them with my 2226's. I would definitely go the 4 18 route instead of 4 15's. Since I have both I have compared and from 35-200hz the 18's stomp the 15's in midbass. The 2242 is my favorite driver for its intended purpose.
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post #46 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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LTD02: Appreciate all the input and thanks for steering me away from making rash decisions on driver choice. Read through all the material you've pointed to, and William Cowan's investigations into different tapped horns was very interesting. I could see a pipe organ type setup for different octaves, haha.



Still doing a lot of estimations and calculations trying to eliminate some drivers. One particular driver which I'm curious about is the BMS 18N862. It's costly, but so are the JBL drivers.

Just to get a basic general idea; what differentiates [these kinds of] drivers in the $300-500 region to those in the $1k region? As a noob, it's easy to take a heuristic approach and look at price to judge performance, but as is evident from you guys' input it isn't necessarily the case. Is the higher price just a result of the currently high price of neodymium magnets or are there actual performance differences?

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post #47 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 11:56 AM
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I use TD18H's in sealed cabinets for the bottom of my mains. They cover from 60/80hz to 200hz. They have nice punch to them.

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post #48 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 12:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
If it hasn't already been mentioned, the setup/integration and room are key for punch. Playing with different responses and delays/phase on your DSP will yield different results.
The limited experience I've got (with drivers, DSP and audio in general) has lead me to the same conclusion. The findings are that – in the current system – there is a tradeoff between the cleanest and most impactfull lows and the tightest midbass punch. It can be explained physically as you either get pounded in the chest or have the pants flabbing, but not both at the same time.

If I xover the two closed LMS Ultra 5400 in the 60-80 Hz region and optimize for phase at the xover (indirect by time aligning), then the lows are clean, rumbling and absolutely wonderful. However, this tilts the balance of the system towards the lows and the midbass from the 2235h drivers does not seem to have enough energy output relatively to the lows, hence they're not able to penetrate through to give an impactfull punch.

If the xover for the Ultras is set higher, such as between 150-200 Hz, and optimize there, then the midbass impact is quite good, but slower than that of the JBL 2235h alone w/o the subs. It does punch, but it doesn't seem to have the same quick transient punch which is desired. Also, the cleanest lows is gone by the wind, and the pants no longer flap.

The conclusion is that the best way to get both of these desired traits simultaneously is to xover the ultras low to get the clean, rumbling, pants shaking lows, and add more help to the 2235h in order to be able to penetrate through that "layer" or sound-preassure-field of rumbling low end bass. By adding more drivers I can optimize those for the midbass region, while the Ultras are optimized for the lows.

PS: Lots of self-invented words here, as I'm not familiar with the terminology, but I hope the explanation is still clear.

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I use two jbl 2226h per main in my setup. Adding dual 18 jbl 2242's per left and right front as stereo subs took everything to a whole different level. It also smoothed out the frequency response. I run them from 35-150hz and sum them with my 2226's. I would definitely go the 4 18 route instead of 4 15's. Since I have both I have compared and from 35-200hz the 18's stomp the 15's in midbass. The 2242 is my favorite driver for its intended purpose.
Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit more about the configuration and volume of your enclosures? Have you tried other 18's for the same purpose? It's not that I'm not willing to spend $ on the JBLs, but they do cost a lot of money.

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post #49 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
The limited experience I've got (with drivers, DSP and audio in general) has lead me to the same conclusion. The findings are that – in the current system – there is a tradeoff between the cleanest and most impactfull lows and the tightest midbass punch. It can be explained physically as you either get pounded in the chest or have the pants flabbing, but not both at the same time.

If I xover the two closed LMS Ultra 5400 in the 60-80 Hz region and optimize for phase at the xover (indirect by time aligning), then the lows are clean, rumbling and absolutely wonderful. However, this tilts the balance of the system towards the lows and the midbass from the 2235h drivers does not seem to have enough energy output relatively to the lows, hence they're not able to penetrate through to give an impactfull punch.

If the xover for the Ultras is set higher, such as between 150-200 Hz, and optimize there, then the midbass impact is quite good, but slower than that of the JBL 2235h alone w/o the subs. It does punch, but it doesn't seem to have the same quick transient punch which is desired. Also, the cleanest lows is gone by the wind, and the pants no longer flap.

The conclusion is that the best way to get both of these desired traits simultaneously is to xover the ultras low to get the clean, rumbling, pants shaking lows, and add more help to the 2235h in order to be able to penetrate through that "layer" or sound-preassure-field of rumbling low end bass. By adding more drivers I can optimize those for the midbass region, while the Ultras are optimized for the lows.

PS: Lots of self-invented words here, as I'm not familiar with the terminology, but I hope the explanation is still clear.



Thank you. Could you tell us a little bit more about the configuration and volume of your enclosures? Have you tried other 18's for the same purpose? It's not that I'm not willing to spend $ on the JBLs, but they do cost a lot of money.
I agree with your assessment mostly. The best approach is a 2 way bass approach provided its setup correctly. A response will always have some sort of flavor at the expense of something else, a common one is when one wants a warmer more melodic sound but it comes at the expense of HF, while a clearer or crisper sound won't be as warm/soft. While a system may be capable of either one needs to pick one or the other or save them as presets to switch between them. I particularly agree that a high xmax driver like the LMS when used in conjunction with a driver like the 2235 leads to compromised punch and is precisely why I am a fan of the 2 way approach where each system can be used in the range where it provides the best subjective result. To me pro style drivers are best used above 30-40Hz while the high xmax drivers are suited to the range below. In my experience when a system has a higher cut off around 40-60Hz then it tends to be more punchy than a system with extended bandwidth down low, in a 2 way approach you may even want to keep the low bass system off for music for maximum punch.
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post #50 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 12:45 PM
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My current configuration is basically a 4 way. Each of my fronts contain 2 jbl 2226h's that cross over at 400hz to a jbl 2485j on a 223fc tractrix horn that is crossed at the high end to a seos 12 at 3500hz. The jbl 2242's are ran as stereo subs and play summed with the 2226's from 35-150hz. I have had the 2242's for awhile. I was originally going to use them in a 3 way, but they fall off fast after 300hz.I have a pair of peavey fh1 bins I was going to use but scratched that idea. I then moved my dual 15 bins back in and loaded them with 2226h's. The 2226hs have good punch but they lack the brute force of the 2242. Also I had to eq them to get a nice response due to my room. Moving the 2242's in smoothed out the response without any eq and also took the punch to a new level. I listen to mostly rock and have noticed most of the punch is from 80-150hz. That is why I chose to run the 2242's up until 150hz. As far as trying other 18's I have owned most of jbl's line, a few eminence, and 1 b&c. The 2242 is my favorite for its purpose. It is not meant to be a low frequency subwoofer and from 35-300hz it has very few equals. Also it is a very clean sounding driver,but there is no way I would buy them new. I have not found a driver I would pay 1000 for. Find some on the used market. On a few of mine I bought the baskets and had them reconed by my local authorized jbl recone center. The recone is 240 and drivers needing reconed usually sell for around $70.
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post #51 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 04:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
(1) I agree with your assessment mostly. The best approach is a 2 way bass approach provided its setup correctly. A response will always have some sort of flavor at the expense of something else, a common one is when one wants a warmer more melodic sound but it comes at the expense of HF, while a clearer or crisper sound won't be as warm/soft.

While a system may be capable of either one needs to pick one or the other or save them as presets to switch between them. I particularly agree that a high xmax driver like the LMS when used in conjunction with a driver like the 2235 leads to compromised punch and is precisely why I am a fan of the 2 way approach where each system can be used in the range where it provides the best subjective result.

(2) To me pro style drivers are best used above 30-40Hz while the high xmax drivers are suited to the range below. In my experience when a system has a higher cut off around 40-60Hz then it tends to be more punchy than a system with extended bandwidth down low, in a 2 way approach you may even want to keep the low bass system off for music for maximum punch.
(1) Absolutely. The key is flexibility and different DSP settings for different material, and to add to the degrees of freedom a two way bass system is probably the way to go. We have reached the same conclusions it seems. Would not want to go back to a subless system, but with added midbass drivers that can aid the speakers in that region, one could have differently optimized EQ, xovers, HPF and LPF for some types of program material, and other settings for other material. To me it's all about flexibility. Just having a high performing two way bass system will yield so much flexibility for tweaking with DSP.

I've even contemplated running the speakers fully active to get more control of phase and time alignment among the other drivers, but to do that optimally, I'd need FIR filtering, which miniDSP 4x10 HD doesn't have and enough channels and processing power for a two way subwoofer system + a 4-way speaker means BIG $$$ if looking at something like DEQX HDP-4 or similar. It can be done with the DRC models from miniDSP at a more affordable price, but you also need amps for each channel, and things quickly adds on. Not to mention the complexity of such devices!

My thinking and long term goal is probably to have a two way subwoofer system together with some nice compression drivers and a horn which can take care the rest. This will all be controlled with different channels and FIR filtering to get phase and time coherency at different xover points.

(2) Yep, exactly my thinking too. But I think it could be possible to run a two way subwoofer system with minor compromise to both the lows and midsbass and gain the best of both worlds at the same time for music. For movies the low end should take center stage imo.

shepjk26:
Will reply later. There are some interesting things in your post I need to look into before making a reply.

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post #52 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 05:03 PM
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(1) Absolutely. The key is flexibility and different DSP settings for different material, and to add to the degrees of freedom a two way bass system is probably the way to go. We have reached the same conclusions it seems. Would not want to go back to a subless system, but with added midbass drivers that can aid the speakers in that region, one could have differently optimized EQ, xovers, HPF and LPF for some types of program material, and other settings for other material. To me it's all about flexibility. Just having a high performing two way bass system will yield so much flexibility for tweaking with DSP.

I've even contemplated running the speakers fully active to get more control of phase and time alignment among the other drivers, but to do that optimally, I'd need FIR filtering, which miniDSP 4x10 HD doesn't have and enough channels and processing power for a two way subwoofer system + a 4-way speaker means BIG $$$ if looking at something like DEQX HDP-4 or similar. It can be done with the DRC models from miniDSP at a more affordable price, but you also need amps for each channel, and things quickly adds on. Not to mention the complexity of such devices!

My thinking and long term goal is probably to have a two way subwoofer system together with some nice compression drivers and a horn which can take care the rest. This will all be controlled with different channels and FIR filtering to get phase and time coherency at different xover points.

(2) Yep, exactly my thinking too. But I think it could be possible to run a two way subwoofer system with minor compromise to both the lows and midsbass and gain the best of both worlds at the same time for music. For movies the low end should take center stage imo.

shepjk26:
Will reply later. There are some interesting things in your post I need to look into before making a reply.
Looks like we are on the same page

I agree that processing becomes complex and expensive, I am not sure if FIR filters are absolutely necessary though and in the lower range requires a lot of taps and adds a lot of delay. Dedicated processing for each sub/speaker is necessary to me so I would highly recommend it, I use delay between my left/right speakers as well and it makes a world of difference. I do not know what kind of budget you are working with for processing but it is interesting you bring it up as I am looking to upgrade mine. There are various options, some automated solutions such as Dirac,Trinnov and Audiolense have a good following while others swear by manual DSP. I can only speak of Dirac as I briefly used that and was not happy with it. In the manual budget range I think the options are pretty clear between the DCX and the miniDSP, as you look at superior solutions the prices rise a lot. Other options are Xilica,Ashly,XTA,DBX,Lab's Lake and so forth.

You are absolutely correct about different program material benefiting from different settings. Dubstep,classical or EDM would all benefit from different curves. After I get my DSP done I will be looking at a low bass solution particularly for movies, my plan is to keep the low bass system off for most music. In movies I think the 25-50Hz region is key, some testing reveals that a lot of that "wow low bass" factor is from around 25-35Hz for most people but of course tastes and opinions vary. It is prudent to understand what type of sound you want before setting out to achieve said goal.

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post #53 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 06:06 PM - Thread Starter
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You are right about IIR vs FIR, which is why I'm not set on any given solution. It's also the price of IIR devices and the complexity it adds that holds me away from those devices today. If I were to do use IIR, I'd take advantage of the latest upgrades to open source Equalizer APO, then build a dedicated machine to do all the processing.

Quote:
Equalizer APO is a parametric equalizer for Windows. It is implemented
as an Audio Processing Object (APO) for the system effect infrastructure
introduced with Windows Vista.

Features:
- virtually unlimited number of filters
- works on any number of channels
- very low latency, which makes it suited for interactive applications
- low CPU usage

Requirements:
- Windows Vista or later (currently only Windows 7, 8 and 8.1 have been tested)
- Sound card driver must support APOs (this includes most onboard sound drivers)
- The application must not bypass the system effect infrastructure
(possible by using special APIs like ASIO)
A properly set up computer with that running is going to be tough if not impossible to beat with any standalone system imo. Have used it a ton on Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit with no problems, mostly as a universal EQ as I don't have enough output channels to control the whole system.

Equalizer APO is not yet as user friendly as miniDSP as it has no integrated GUI, but you can use Peace, which is an addon GUI for Equalizer APO.

Also it has excellent integration with REW, so REW can spit out the filters you want in .txt files which are easily activated through Equalizer APO's config file by a simple "Include: name-of-filter-file.txt"-command. You basically gain an "unlimited" number of filters and processing power.

In the past EQ APO was strictly a parametric EQ solution, but with the introduction of logical operators and delay in the latest release (V0.9 Beta) you could have yourself an extremely powerful tool.

Quote:
What's New in This Release: [ read full changelog ]
  • Added: Filter type "IIR", which allows to specify a user-defined IIR filter of arbitrary order with custom coefficients. Improved: For playback devices, the APO is now installed both as GFX (post-mix) and LFX (pre-mix) APO. Normally the filtering happens in GFX, but the command "Stage" allows to select LFX to apply effects based on the number of input channels.
  • Added: Expression language. The commands "If", "ElseIf", "Else", "EndIf", "Eval" and inline expressions allow to change the filter behaviour based on runtime conditions.
  • Added: Command "Copy", which copies audio data between channels.
  • Added: Command "Delay", which delays the audio on the currently selected channels.
  • Improved: Configuration files are now locked exclusively for writing while reading them.
  • Improved: There is now a transition (10 ms) from old to new configuration after loading.
  • Improved: Substantial internal restructuring to improve extensibility and maintainability. Filtering commands now work exactly in th...
When my time to choose between IIR and FIR comes, and if it falls on IIR, then EQ APO it is. Actually, due to the flexibility of this beta version, I might just go for it and donate a few hundred $ to the project as gratitude.

One thing I don't know, and it's a big thing, is if it would be possible to generate xover filters in a simple manner with EQ APO as it is now. I think we'd have to make the filters manually through a GUI. Maybe REW could do it, but not sure.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

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post #54 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 06:47 PM
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I used to use 2242's as midbass modules with my JTR 212's. Heck,. I've got 12 in storage that I got for an awesome deal but if I was buying new, TD18 is what I'd get. I'd never pay JBL's prices for new drivers, it's just stupid.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I used to use 2242's as midbass modules with my JTR 212's. Heck,. I've got 12 in storage that I got for an awesome deal but if I was buying new, TD18 is what I'd get. I'd never pay JBL's prices for new drivers, it's just stupid.
Only 12 eh! Hoser.

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post #56 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 08:33 PM
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IMO the drivers for this application is the easy part. There's many that will do just fine for a limited bandwidth app like this. The hard part, that others have mentioned, is the in room response. You can have the flattest driver in the world but when you put it in a room you have floor/ceiling reflections, and notches due to rear/side wall location. Having the speakers mounted in a baffle wall would be best, and either right in the corners or far away from them. I like to keep woofers in this region near the floor to push the floor bounce up out of the passband. A shaded vertical array could accomplish this too if you feel you need 4+ woofers per channel

Personally I use 2 TD15M woofers per channel (one doing full midwoofer duty and one dedicated midbass). The mid TD is up on a stand and the floor notch is quite evident, but the flanking midbass woofer is on the floor and in a different physical location and does well to smooth the response in this range. My system is in my living room so a baffle wall is out of the question.

I think active for this situation is a must. It's difficult at these low frequencies to get the integration right when you're dealing with separate midbass modules from the mains. Getting good data below 300hz is impossible in a small room. We need the ability to delay and manipulate the xo. I found it's pretty easy to "muddy up" the lower midrange with a midbass module that's played up too high, not delayed correctly, or isn't at the right level relative to the mains. It's harder to get these things right and keep the subjective balance where I want it (getting that midbass impact but not negatively affecting lower midrange intelligibility). I use J River MC which has almost all the PEQ flexibility I need, and with rePhase I can create my own FIR filters for free which can be hosted in MC.

In short I'd say proper integration is where it's at, and not breaking the bank with uber drivers. Unless of course you need 120+dB
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post #57 of 186 Old 08-23-2014, 11:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
I used to use 2242's as midbass modules with my JTR 212's. Heck,. I've got 12 in storage that I got for an awesome deal but if I was buying new, TD18 is what I'd get. I'd never pay JBL's prices for new drivers, it's just stupid.
I have Paypal

But seriously though, do you think TD18H+ (with or without the Apollo upgrade) is a better driver than 2242, or are we strictly talking based on price here?

A little concerned about the lead times of AE though. They seem to have an unreliable supply chain according to the representatives in their customer service forum. If something were to happen, it would be far too expensive to ship it back to the US for reconing too, but JBL has dealers here.

Edit:

Also, looking at this

Source: http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...rt=desc&mfr=-1

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

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post #58 of 186 Old 08-24-2014, 12:52 AM
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I think the AE designs are extremely hard to beat. If given the choice I would choose the AE over the JBL regardless of price. Everyone who has had them has said they are one of the best if not the best speaker they have ever had.


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post #59 of 186 Old 08-24-2014, 02:19 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
I think the AE designs are extremely hard to beat. If given the choice I would choose the AE over the JBL regardless of price. Everyone who has had them has said they are one of the best if not the best speaker they have ever had.
Been reading a ton of subjective impressions on it now, and wow, yes, everybody keeps raving about this driver. With the Apollo upgrade each driver is $600, so four would very be doable. Will contact AE to hear about potential lead times, hopefully it's not several months. With the option of a black anodized phase plug it will look cool. Not big on the silver one.

The phase plug looks like this now, right?



I hope so because it looks better than this


DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #60 of 186 Old 08-24-2014, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Everybody comments on the asses I've got on one pair of my speakers.



Wonder what they'll say when I've got four drivers with a black dong sticking out of them.
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DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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