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post #91 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Nuno C View Post
Please let us know how the measurements turn out. I am currently thinking about a full active 3way front stage with a coaxial and AE TD drivers.

A question regarding your choice of miniDSP 10x10 HD box.

The 10x10 plugin runs at 48Khz
The 4x10 plugin runs at 96Khz

Did you ever do any testing between the two or did you think it would not matter?

Appreciate any feedback regarding your experience. Thanks.
Have not done any testing, but may have to consider doing so in the future.

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post #92 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 07:32 AM
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
What internal volume did you use for those mid-bass boxes. My front three are some what similar. I am running full active on my front three speakers and using TD12M, TPL-150H, TD12M and TD18H. The TD18H's are in a separate enclosure. I currently repurposed some 4.25 CF boxes that I had SI-18's in. Have to build new boxes for the TD18H's at some point.
They are 3.75 CF.
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post #93 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 08:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
What dimensions are those cabs?

I am looking at building a dual 15" PA main and they look like they may work for me.
Hi!

Those were only crude drafts to see how it would look like to port them like that and place them in different configurations, hence they were not based on any particular volume or size.

The only rule I used in that design was that there should be an equal distance from the edge of the driver to the square port and left, top and right edges. Also, the port should be at least 60 mm high and go from edge to edge. Length of the port I guess you could calculate with WinISD?

If you have a predetermined volume, port length and and size constraints I could certainly try to draw it for you. I don't know about air velocity in ports etc though.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
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post #94 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 09:47 AM
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Thanks.

I was just curious was all. I am looking at doing a 15" woofer SEOS 15" WG, 10" mid and 15" woofer. WTMW. I thought about making the 15's ported in their own cabinets so your picture looked great. I may also just build one cabinet for both. Have not decided yet. I do like the sims on the single large cabinet for the pair of 15's. Smaller port and higher 1st port resonance.

Either way I may just PM you and ask if you can do a Sketchup of the WTMW speaker. Dont want to derail this thread anymore.


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post #95 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 10:04 AM - Thread Starter
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You are most welcome. Yes, front rectangular ported looks great, but as LTD02 said front placed ports leak higher frequencies more so than rear ported. That detracts a little bit from them imo.

On another note, the 4 x 2226 drivers will arrive tomorrow, but my lazy ass has not yet made any enclosures. I've got one which is approx. 4cft. Would it be ok to fill bags with sand to lower the volume and try out different drivers? Logic says yes, but you never know

Also, there's this well renowned DIY guy in Norway who has no less than 20(!) AE TD18H+ with Apollo and black phase plug which he aims to sell because he wants to go OEM for a huge project he has! They are brand new, but he will only sell if the community takes everything off of him within the 20th of September. Might want to get 2 of them, especially after having read the recent press release from AE.

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Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
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post #96 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 10:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post

Also, there's this well renowned DIY guy in Norway who has no less than 20(!) AE TD18H+ with Apollo and black phase plug which he aims to sell because he wants to go OEM for a huge project he has! They are brand new, but he will only sell if the community takes everything off of him within the 20th of September. Might want to get 2 of them, especially after having read the recent press release from AE.
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post #97 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 04:10 PM - Thread Starter
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^ Haha, yup, must have been one ¤#&"!#¤% of a project he intended on doing.

Been playing around with the LMS Ultras tonight, xover at 300 Hz and aligning phase at that frequency as 2235h is also xo'ed there. On Infected Mushroom's Avratz you're pounded around like a feather in the wind, but it doesn't have the same "speed" as I hope the 2226 have, but tomorrow I'll find out for sure. Want to go to sleep so time will pass faster, haha. Also, the experiment makes me wonder what 4 of these Ultras can do...

BassThatHz, where do you xover your ultras, please?

Now I'm going to read up on 2 vs 4 LMS-U (for the sixth time), lol!

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
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post #98 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 07:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
...

Also, the experiment makes me wonder what 4 of these Ultras can do...
Guess I'll find out soon, as I just ordered 2 more LMS U.... Got afraid seeing PE has all TC Sounds drivers listed as a clearance items and my long term plan are quads so I'd hate it if they come out with something new that won't play well together with the two I've got or, even worse, TC Sounds goes bust...

So it's with quite a bit of agony that I did this, but I guess it'll be worth it once I get them set up, and noodles taste good, at least the first couple of weeks.

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post #99 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 07:44 PM
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^^ It's not difficult to make different brand subs play well together. Even if TC went bust, you could get a pair of UXL18 (or SI etc) for the next pair and have no difficulty in making them all work together well. I'm going to be using 4 different brands in 3 different sizes soon.
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post #100 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
^^ It's not difficult to make different brand subs play well together. Even if TC went bust, you could get a pair of UXL18 (or SI etc) for the next pair and have no difficulty in making them all work together well. I'm going to be using 4 different brands in 3 different sizes soon.
Thank you for rubbing it in on a broke noob, lol. It's fine, quads were in the future anyways, but would have liked it to be later. Also have a bit of OCD when it comes to symmetrical setups.

Those TD18H+'s are definitely out of the question now because I will need MDF and another one of those FP14k clones from Sanway for the extra Ultras, not to mention the spirit to build 6 enclosures......

Wonder if I could get away with a FP10q for both the Ultras and the 4 x 2226H I've got coming tomorrow...... Would be 4 ohms per channel. Limiting Ultra at 80V now so 80^2/4 = 1600wpc. Guess that would be fine.

BassThatHz: Are you using FP10000Q to drive your quad LMS-U? I think your enclosures are smaller than mine. (which are 175L / 6.2ft3).

On the brighter side though, this is an investment into hours and hours of pleasurable music and movie playback.... Have to keep telling myself that. I don't regret the decision, it's just very untimely.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
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post #101 of 195 Old 09-02-2014, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Thank you for rubbing it in on a broke noob, lol.
I don't have much money at the moment either. What I've assembled has taken 5 years and included amps from my old PA, waited for bargains and expanded when I had a bit of spare cash.

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It's fine, quads were in the future anyways, but would have liked it to be later.
The point of my previous post was to get you to relax, it will be alright.

EDIT: Might also be worth emailing PE to find out the status of TC Sounds. They might be slow moving and PE want to clear some stock and make space.

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Also have a bit of OCD when it comes to symmetrical setups.
Same here. I'm rebuilding all my DIY speakers from the crap MDF messy builds to new ply and keep running out of time and budget to complete it all.

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Wonder if I could get away with a FP10q for both the Ultras and the 4 x 2226H I've got coming tomorrow......
Possibly. Not sure of the exact config you plan using, but I doubt you'll ever feed more than 100W to each of the 2226's.

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On the brighter side though, this is an investment into hours and hours of pleasurable music and movie playback.... Have to keep telling myself that. I don't regret the decision, it's just very untimely.
My plan is when complete, not to touch anything for 10 years unless some radical new technology I want to use comes along. I don't actually see that happening.

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post #102 of 195 Old 09-03-2014, 02:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't have much money at the moment either. What I've assembled has taken 5 years and included amps from my old PA, waited for bargains and expanded when I had a bit of spare cash.
I hear ya, started building the stereo system about a year ago after having had a break for many years and the savings' account balance has been depreciating at an accelerating rate ever since – now I don't even need it anymore. Audio is weird like that. I'm always smart with money and never work out of credit, seldom make excessive purchases, but within audio I seem to lose grip completely. Have not gone overboard using credit, to me that's like hitting rock bottom.

Something gotta give for a long period now. It's time to lick the wounds, focus on audio theory while slowly building and optimizing the system.

Quote:
EDIT: Might also be worth emailing PE to find out the status of TC Sounds. They might be slow moving and PE want to clear some stock and make space.
Yes, they've not been out of stock on the LMS for a while, but found it weird that their whole lineup is in clearing, also the prices were not any better but they had a $100 coupon for > $1k orders. I could only leverage one coupon because placing two orders and going above $1k to qualify for the coupon only made it more expensive due to extra international shipping of placing two orders... So $100 off was the best I could get, and could not use two coupons on one order.

Quote:
Same here. I'm rebuilding all my DIY speakers from the crap MDF messy builds to new ply and keep running out of time and budget to complete it all.
I get that. Was considering ply vs MDF when I started, but ply was so much more expensive... Will probably hate on myself for not using ply down the line... OCD works in many ways, and mostly the expensive ones...

Quote:
Possibly. Not sure of the exact config you plan using, but I doubt you'll ever feed more than 100W to each of the 2226's.
Denon POA 1500 (amp): mids, hf and uhf of speakers
QSC GX 5: 2235h woofers in speakers
FP14000: Dual LMS-U

Emotiva XPR-1 monos: NOTHING ... Have not been using them for many months, because they run so f'n hot it's impossible to be in the room after some hours during the Summer. That's terrible as they sound fantastic. Have problems unloading them too, but they would bring in enough to get the rest of the system in order and ease the pain, but still... They are such great sounding amps... Giving 1kW@8 and 1.7kW@4 my thoughts are to wire the 2226H in pairs for 4 ohms and run them off of the monos until I get another amp from Sanway and place all of the rack gear in a cabinet outside the room for noise reduction.

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My plan is when complete, not to touch anything for 10 years unless some radical new technology I want to use comes along. I don't actually see that happening.
Haha, yes, that's what I'm thinking too, "do it once and do it right", then tinker with DSP, optimize and enjoy.

Truth is I enjoy obsessing over audio to the extent that it becomes unhealthy, and I'm confident that many of you long timers can relate. A lot of us are probably obsessive by nature. I especially see this in men all the time. We like applying ourselves by thinking, optimizing, building, creating - getting desired results. The problem here is not that I don't have more money for better audio, it's more that I don't have money to keep building and optimizing!!! I believe this productive force is what keeps a lot of the genius people around in the forums. They can apply themselves to problem solving for others.

Wow, a lot of this sounds negative! But honestly, I wouldn't give this up at gunpoint, it's just too much got damn fun, lol.

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Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

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post #103 of 195 Old 09-03-2014, 03:13 AM
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Grizz, I am curious as to what you are going to be using for your mains? Are you running the JBL-2235's in them and then the 2226's as separate mid-bass enclosures? I am not familiar with the 2235, but I am curious as to how it compares to the 2226 or the 2242? What are you using for the mid's and tweeters in your LCR mains?
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post #104 of 195 Old 09-03-2014, 03:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Grizz, I am curious as to what you are going to be using for your mains? Are you running the JBL-2235's in them and then the 2226's as separate mid-bass enclosures? I am not familiar with the 2235, but I am curious as to how it compares to the 2226 or the 2242? What are you using for the mid's and tweeters in your LCR mains?
Hi, currently I'm using a pair of 4-way JBL 4343B vintage studio monitors (PDF spec sheet). This image is from the web.



I don't run multi channel, only stereo. The 2235h driver is a less efficient, higher mass, lower extension woofer. It's used in vintage speakers such as 4430 (xo at 1kHz), 4435 (xo at 1kHz and 100 Hz [dual config with one "helper" driver] and the mighty 4355 (got to have them one day!).

Originally, 4343B use the 2231 driver, but 2235h are better so they were replaced in favor of those (xo at 300 Hz). 2226 is probably a superior midbass driver, but 2235h is very sought after by JBL fans but a bit rare as they are discontinued. Some say the SQ of 2235h bests that of 2226, but that 2226 has a better impact (and can obviously go louder due to better efficiency and power handling). I think that 2227 might be similar to 2235h in terms of SQ and it has a lot in common with 2226, so probably a good compromise, but not sure. Another big 4-way is the 4345 which use 18" 2245h, those are probably similar to the 2235h's only 18".

I plan on trying several things with the 4 x 2226. I've got a 100L sealed enclosure which I will fill with bags full of sand to lower the volume and try out what I think sounds best. 85L sealed like LTD02 and I talked about earlier seems like a good alternative, but 40L seems interesting too.

Are also going to try replacing the 2235h in the 4343B to see how it sounds, then an option would be to build a box with the same internal volume and port tune to replicate the response of the speakers.

So the alternatives are (1) four independent enclosures for the 2226 together with the 2235h sitting in the speakers or (2) replace 2235h in the speakers and build two independent enclosures, and (3) to make things worse, I have a pair of JBL 4430 speakers in storage, and they have two extra 2235h, so I can try out a config with 4 x 2235h (two in speakers and two in independend enclosures)...

Can do a writeup of the differences I perceive between 2226 and 2235h. I think that 2226 working between 50/80-300 Hz might be better than 2235h, but don't know until I've tried. Truly enjoy 2235h, if they were more available I'd get those instead of 2226, because then I'd know what I'd get.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #105 of 195 Old 09-03-2014, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So I got the 4 drivers yesterday. Had an enclosure which I made for LMS-U a while back, measured the net volume which came out to 128L (4.5ft3) less driver for 122L (4,3ft3). Made a new baffle with cutout for 2226, put a gasket on the baffle and use clamps to hold the baffle ontop of the old with the LMS 18" cutout so it'll be easier to add plastic bags of sand to adjust the internal volume for subjective impressions.



Yes, carpet needs vacuuming

Now I'm running one w/o damping in the 4.5cubes, power 1kW Emovia XPR-1: I'm very impressed about 2226's midbass punch, so great succcess! It's felt in the chest and throat and more punchy than the midbass of 2235h and LMS Ultra. If I were to describe it, I'd say it has more ATTACK! This tune for instance, Krumelur – Transparency Man (Spotify), really lets you feel those hits and punches.

These are the xovers that yields the best results for midbass punch.



Already wondering what four will do when one can do this, LOL. This system is starting to kick ass!! And with four of these and four ultras WOW! I can't even imagine how the big systems in here sounds and feels. This is truly addictive! LMS Ultra making the whole room literally pressurized and the 2226 pounding on me like a big bad pimp!!

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #106 of 195 Old 09-03-2014, 11:35 PM
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"Already wondering what four will do when one can do this, LOL. This system is starting to kick ass!! And with four of these and four ultras WOW! I can't even imagine how the big systems in here sounds and feels. This is truly addictive! LMS Ultra making the whole room literally pressurized and the 2226 pounding on me like a big bad pimp!!"


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post #107 of 195 Old 09-04-2014, 12:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Could not have made the system what it is today without all of you, so big thanks. I'll write down impressions of different volumes, the choice for final design, xovers etc. Some measurements, and of course pictures of the building process (as if I have anything to add, haha) + a mugshot of the system at the end.

Since 2226 is so darn good in this frequency range, one has to wonder what those AE TD18H+ can do, but that's a question for another day Got 6 enclosures to build!

Time to listen to music and read the forums!!

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
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post #108 of 195 Old 09-04-2014, 06:20 AM
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Will be following your results of changing the enclosure volume. At some point I may add three more 2226H's to my system forwarded insanity. I currently run LCR's that each have a 2226H. The more the merrier.

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post #109 of 195 Old 09-04-2014, 09:01 AM
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Already wondering what four will do when one can do this, LOL.




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post #110 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 02:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Been thinking again. What are constructions like these called?



Would this be feasible for this kind of application? The point would be to sum the output and save space. I'm afraid the side walls left and right of the drivers might cancel out some waves or produce other undesired results. Any principles on constructing these that I should be aware of? More directivity is probably going to be the case, but fine with that.

The plan would then be to try different volumes with what I've got set up now, find that volume and set it up in a configuration like this.

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Will be following your results of changing the enclosure volume. At some point I may add three more 2226H's to my system forwarded insanity. I currently run LCR's that each have a 2226H. The more the merrier.
Will do some close range measurements as well. It has been so pleasurable to listen to that I've not yet gotten anything done, but it's time to get to work.

I'm sure 3x2226 is awesome!!

Edit: corrected a mistake that made room for misunderstandings.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400

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post #111 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 04:06 AM
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Did you see Nate's thread with his dual 15's and angled baffles?

Will see if I can find it real quick for you if not.


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post #112 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 04:20 AM - Thread Starter
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No, thanks, but I take it's this thread? Outdoor GP measurement of dual TD15M

Reading that now.

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post #113 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 04:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Like the looks of the lower half of this speaker in Nate's thread.



Then you could put them vertically or horizontally. I guess that would be a 90 degree angle between the two drivers. It does look cool. If it performs as well as two in sealed with respect to midbass punch, then I'll go this route, but I guess I won't know until I try.

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post #114 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
So I got the 4 drivers yesterday. Had an enclosure which I made for LMS-U a while back, measured the net volume which came out to 128L (4.5ft3) less driver for 122L (4,3ft3). Made a new baffle with cutout for 2226, put a gasket on the baffle and use clamps to hold the baffle ontop of the old with the LMS 18" cutout so it'll be easier to add plastic bags of sand to adjust the internal volume for subjective impressions.



Yes, carpet needs vacuuming

Now I'm running one w/o damping in the 4.5cubes, power 1kW Emovia XPR-1: I'm very impressed about 2226's midbass punch, so great succcess! It's felt in the chest and throat and more punchy than the midbass of 2235h and LMS Ultra. If I were to describe it, I'd say it has more ATTACK! This tune for instance, Krumelur – Transparency Man (Spotify), really lets you feel those hits and punches.

These are the xovers that yields the best results for midbass punch.



Already wondering what four will do when one can do this, LOL. This system is starting to kick ass!! And with four of these and four ultras WOW! I can't even imagine how the big systems in here sounds and feels. This is truly addictive! LMS Ultra making the whole room literally pressurized and the 2226 pounding on me like a big bad pimp!!
Are you using an AVR? If so how do you have that set?

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post #115 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 07:25 AM
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Also, there's this well renowned DIY guy in Norway who has no less than 20(!) AE TD18H+ with Apollo and black phase plug which he aims to sell because he wants to go OEM for a huge project he has! They are brand new, but he will only sell if the community takes everything off of him within the 20th of September. Might want to get 2 of them, especially after having read the recent press release from AE.
So how does one get in on this action? Keen on hearing more details.
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post #116 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 07:46 AM - Thread Starter
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He announced it on a Norwegian forum. If you're outside of Norway it won't be cheap, as we have 25 % sales tax here, so he has priced that in, also shipping out of Norway is expensive for heavy things like drivers. Here's a link to the announcement.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
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post #117 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 07:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by AV Science Sales 5 View Post
Are you using an AVR? If so how do you have that set?
No, no AVR. MiniDSP does "everything" in this system. Only running stereo.

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Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
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post #118 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 07:53 AM - Thread Starter
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So, been drawing again



For placing them under the speakers (should be fine as the horn has a lens with dispersion downwards).

Or, for placing them next to the speakers


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Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
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post #119 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 08:55 AM
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not sure if we can surmise anything from on old jbl install cab that had something of a similar arrangement:


https://www.jblpro.com/ProductAttachments/ASB6128V.pdf


that strong dip may be because the drivers are mounted reverse for cooling and may explain why we don't see that arrangement used more commonly.


looks like some sensivity/horn loading around 150-250hz or so. maybe 3db?

Listen. It's All Good.

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post #120 of 195 Old 09-05-2014, 12:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
So, been drawing again



For placing them under the speakers (should be fine as the horn has a lens with dispersion downwards
I ran my quad TDs like that for a while with a big horn on top. It worked quite well.
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