Best drivers for extreme midbass punch? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 03:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Talking Best drivers for extreme midbass punch?

Looking for 2, 4 or 6 drivers, 15-18" size with extreme midbass punch. Imo, more drivers > bigger box. They don't need to go deep, as I've got 2 LMS Ultra which does an excellent job down low, but they can't really follow 4 pcs of JBL 2235h in the midbass punch dept, even with EQ in the 100-200 Hz range.

Budget: Not wanting to go crazy with it, but would rather get two excellent costly drivers and build upon that then to go for four of lesser quality, I reason. But nothing is set in stone, so feel free to give any input.

Requirement: Extreme midbass punch that you feel from the bottom of the chest to the top of your throat.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #2 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 04:34 PM
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This->
Dual Octal 18's Kick-Bin Build Thread



Nuff Said...

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post #3 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 04:44 PM - Thread Starter
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NICE! Going there to read now!

Don't know if you recall, but you helped me a ton with the dual LMS Ultra 5400 builds. Now anders1234 has received his four additional LMS-U for a total of six, and I'll probably visit him to hear how that sound sometime during the winter. Should be awesome

This is what dreams are made of (his images):




DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #4 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 05:20 PM
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Are those 10's in the smaller TC boxes?


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post #5 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Are those 10's in the smaller TC boxes?
Hi, no, that's the motors for the LMS Ultra 5400's, they come in two shipments to avoid damage, one with the motor and one with the basket/spider/cone etc. You screw them together with some allen key bolts.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #6 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 05:31 PM
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Flh
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post #7 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 05:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Flh
Me no comprende?!?!?!

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #8 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 05:50 PM
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Two of these from 30hz and up is more bass than most can physically handle.

http://jtrspeakers.com/portable/orbit-shifter/
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post #9 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 06:27 PM
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With 6 LMS, you'd probably forget all about getting more 150hz.

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post #10 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 07:00 PM
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Since it's midbass and you're on a budget, wouldn't those Eminence LAB 15s be a decent choice? At $210 for two, seems like you could load up on those.
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post #11 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 07:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
With 6 LMS, you'd probably forget all about getting more 150hz.
LOL, I guess I'll find out when I go visit anders1234. He's in the process of getting 3 pcs of FP14k clones now, lol. Something tells me he is going to end up with 10 ultras and 5 FP14k's, lol.

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Originally Posted by likelinus View Post
Since it's midbass and you're on a budget, wouldn't those Eminence LAB 15s be a decent choice? At $210 for two, seems like you could load up on those.
Hi, thank you for the advice, will be checking them out, but there's a slight change of plans. lol. I've been looking into BassThatHz' plans and popaloc's 8x18" front stage, and I'm thinking about copying the idea from popa.

The stage will be of very similar size to popa's, sealed but don't know yet which drivers to use. I guess I could stack up on Ultras, but I don't think they do the best job for 100-200 Hz punishment, but what do I know, I've not tried a lot. The most important part is above 60 Hz (where I currently xover the Ultras now). If I feel need for more sub bass, I was thinking about adding and stacking two ultras in addition.

What drivers are popa using, and are those suitable for quick transients in music?

So I guess I'm hoping for some input on these plans now and are asking what kind of big ass drivers are well known to be punchy (and hopefully efficient above 60 Hz)?

When I've got some options, I'll calculate budget, start doing WinISD estimations and draw it in Sketchup.

Guess I should never have come here, lol.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #12 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 07:11 PM
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As a JBL fan you should consider the 18" JBL 2242. JBL calls it the "Maximum Output Transducer" though they really weren't talking about below 40 Hz so they get modest respect here where most subs seem to be designed for elephants. Can't forget the 15" JBL 2226...4 of the 16 ohm J version will do nicely. Both readily available used since the new list price is obscene. Hint - new loaded in cinema cabinets is probably cheaper than the raw drivers...whatever
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post #13 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post
As a JBL fan you should consider the 18" JBL 2242. JBL calls it the "Maximum Output Transducer" though they really weren't talking about below 40 Hz so they get modest respect here where most subs seem to be designed for elephants. Can't forget the 15" JBL 2226...4 of the 16 ohm J version will do nicely. Both readily available used since the new list price is obscene. Hint - new loaded in cinema cabinets is probably cheaper than the raw drivers...whatever
Thank you, I was looking into the 2242H earlier today at PE, and the price was very high. It also seemed like it really wanted to live in very large ported enclosures (at least for low end output), but I got more reading to do on that driver.

In light of the possible changes to the plans above I will not be installing eight 2242H's though, that's for sure, it would be to pricey for my wallet. I could go with two or maybe four if I save up some bucks though.

Also, I maybe got my hands on 3 more pcs of JBL 2235h (15") (I've got 1 spare, 2 in 4343B and 2 in 4430 right now). It has a very punchy and nice sound to it, but in the lows the LMS Ultra slaughters it badly. In 4343B it's rolling off at 35 Hz, but I currently have it cut off with an electronic HPF @ 60 Hz due to the Ultra, and it plays really nicely together. But we always seem to want more, don't we

About the 2226J's, I've got to read up on how they are compared to the 2235h's. Thank you for the hint about how to get them cheaper. I'm a bargain hunter who patiently waits for coupons, so any savings are highly welcome!

Hate to be so lengthy as people might not be interested to read all of this, but I'm thinking that good drivers will live with you for a long time, while the builds might change. I've got a desire to build some big horns at one point, something with TAD's compression drivers maybe, and then it would be nice to accumulated the drivers for the rest of the frequency band. Maybe 2242h fits into that together with the Ultras?

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #14 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 08:28 PM
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I forgot those shipped in two boxes. Regarding dynamics above 60hz I think you may be just fine with more Ultra's. I mentioned the same thing to Notnyt who has dual 15's and says he just EQ's in the midbass from his subs instead of his 15's.


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post #15 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 08:45 PM
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assuming everything else is right...most of that mid-bass punch thing is just being able to hit very high spl without any hint of power compression and not lose control while doing it. you are probably a 130db+ camper, so at least 4 high sensitivity 18's is probably what you are looking for. josh tested quite a few a posted results on data-bass. if they don't have to cover the bottom octaves that will take a lot of weight off their shoulders. the 2235 has great inductance control, but loses some sensitivity in return for greater extention. most of the pro audio companies have a driver or several that will do the job. 18lw2400 comes to mind as does the td18h+apollo. there are lots of 2242's floating around the used market. at $1k new, hard to say it is worth it. for fun reading, you might want to visit bass pig's lair if you haven't already.


http://www.basspig.com/
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post #16 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 08:59 PM
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I'd recommend going with the highest sensitivity, highest power, cheapest woofer you can find for the 8 18's.

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post #17 of 186 Old 08-21-2014, 09:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post

About the 2226J's, I've got to read up on how they are compared to the 2235h's. Thank you for the hint about how to get them cheaper.
They're very similar. Pretty sure the same motor and frame, but the cone is heavier and the suspension compliance is lower so Fs is about an octave lower. The 2226 has a few dB higher sensitivity and about 1/2mm less xmax than the 2035.

You could also look at the cheaper 2225. About 2/3 the xmax or the 2226 and 200W vs 600W of power handling, both of which are irrelevant as midbasses above 60Hz or so at home. I've had dozens of the 25 and 26 in my PA and at home and never damaged one (but I'm careful) and at home at ear blasting levels they don't move much in this application.
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post #18 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 09:50 AM - Thread Starter
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So based on all of the great input so far I've put up this list of drivers which I'll research further.



Buying so many at the same time there are hopes for additional discount. Buying used is not going to be beneficial unless I get all drivers used from one source as shipping individually to Norway will be expensive, but buying in bulk gives the option of one pallet by sea.

Amping will be by getting additional Sanway amps. Love the FP14k, but here a FP10kQ might be more flexible as one could do DSP with an additional miniDSP 4x10 on 8 woofers in pairs of two for example.

Also having crazy ideas about semi ported design, whereby you could remote operate hydraulic or air pressure controlled arms to open and close vents, LOL! With a controllable remote, you could push a button and all DSP config would change to optimized for ported, and the vents would open. Now that would be MacGuyver!

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
assuming everything else is right...most of that mid-bass punch thing is just being able to hit very high spl without any hint of power compression and not lose control while doing it. you are probably a 130db+ camper, so at least 4 high sensitivity 18's is probably what you are looking for. josh tested quite a few a posted results on data-bass. if they don't have to cover the bottom octaves that will take a lot of weight off their shoulders. the 2235 has great inductance control, but loses some sensitivity in return for greater extention. most of the pro audio companies have a driver or several that will do the job. 18lw2400 comes to mind as does the td18h+apollo. there are lots of 2242's floating around the used market. at $1k new, hard to say it is worth it. for fun reading, you might want to visit bass pig's lair if you haven't already.


http://www.basspig.com/
Great advice, didn't know about basspig, but will read through it. I've added the drivers to the research list, but the apollo is not familiar to me, and searching for it only gives me random results such as travel agencies etc.

Also, I've got the impression that buying from AE require patience? What is to be expected? Sea freight is easily 6 weeks from the company in the US ships it to arrival here.

Thanks again, will be doing a lot of research into drivers and designs on this topic the coming weeks and post drawings and WinISD estimations etc here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I'd recommend going with the highest sensitivity, highest power, cheapest woofer you can find for the 8 18's.
Thanks, all the drivers in the list above seems to meet the first two params, but cheap, idk. I don't want to end up buying 8 drivers, change my mind about build and having to replace them for a new application. It's scary as hell buying so many at the same time with so little experience.

We see that the JBL's in the list comes out to a total which would be at about the same cost as four additional LMS Ultras for a total of six(!) That put things into perspective for sure, but my reasoning is that for the absolute best lows, the Ultras should be xed over only work with the lows and other more suitable and efficient drivers should do the midbass. At least that has been my experience trying different settings with my current ultras vs JBL 2235h

When I get this monster build up, I might find I want more sub bass, and get two ultras in addition.

To be honest this is really not necessary. The system plays awesome today, but it's fun to build and play around. Gives meaning to life, hahaha.

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Originally Posted by A9X-308 View Post
They're very similar. Pretty sure the same motor and frame, but the cone is heavier and the suspension compliance is lower so Fs is about an octave lower. The 2226 has a few dB higher sensitivity and about 1/2mm less xmax than the 2035.

You could also look at the cheaper 2225. About 2/3 the xmax or the 2226 and 200W vs 600W of power handling, both of which are irrelevant as midbasses above 60Hz or so at home. I've had dozens of the 25 and 26 in my PA and at home and never damaged one (but I'm careful) and at home at ear blasting levels they don't move much in this application.
Wonderful, wonderful! I only got my first speakers a year from now, and have been obsessed ever since, hence the lack of knowledge. I liked the 4430 so much and 4343B came up, then 120Ti, then, then, then... LOL.

The 2225 seems more difficult to source than the 2226? I want the drivers to be flexible outside the scope of this project too, because I might want to use them for low end as well. Trying to keep options open so I don't have to buy 8 more drivers a year or two down the line, because something I haven't realized now suddenly dawns on me.

Will be doing tons of WinISD estimations, read subjective reviews + to see where the price/performance kicks in.

You guys are all great. Wish I was in the US and could visit some of you to check out your systems. Saw a home cinema road trip on youtube, where they visited popaloc's cinema and the SI24. Looked like a fantastic way to spend the day.

DAC/Preamp: miniDSP 4x10 HD and Mytek 192 Stereo DSD DAC
Speakers: JBL 4343B, JBL 4430 and JBL 120Ti
Amplifiers: Emotiva XPR-1, Denon POA 1500, QSC GX5 and Sanway's LabGruppen FP14000 clone
Sub: DIY LMS Ultra 5400
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post #19 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 10:48 AM
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Drivers? I've been drooling over the DefiniMax.

http://www.parts-express.com/eminenc...river--290-577

They have 15's and 18's as well. Of course it probably depends on what your definition of "midbass" is. I like really tight kick drums which is fairly low but some people say midbass is 200-500 hz. You get a light and cheap driver and they don't do the kick drums all that well, it's basically in the upper realm of subwoofer frequencies.

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post #20 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 11:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
Also having crazy ideas about semi ported design, whereby you could remote operate hydraulic or air pressure controlled arms to open and close vents, LOL! With a controllable remote, you could push a button and all DSP config would change to optimized for ported, and the vents would open. Now that would be MacGuyver!
Dreaming about ports and midbass punch isn't compatible in my opinion, you get the punch from small sealed enclosures. Most I have ever heard in my life was a friend of mine who put sixteen 10's in a small sealed box in a chevy blazer, he had four rows of four 10's. He'd play Enter Sandman and it would scare the bejeezus out of you, just so encapsulating that it felt like pure evil.

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post #21 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corndogggy View Post
He'd play Enter Sandman and it would scare the bejeezus out of you, just so encapsulating that it felt like pure evil.


I luv this sentence...makes me wanna go crank it NOW
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post #22 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 11:58 AM
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Hmm...the JBL W15GTI that I'm running IB in my BMW aint no slouch as such... I'm sure it doesn't compare to sixteen 10s (that's....whoa...), but it does slam pretty well.
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post #23 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 02:20 PM
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For maximum mid bass punch there is no equal to a well designed FLH loaded with 12s/15s. People like looking at a stack of sealed 18s or whatever but its the wrong tool for the job IMO.
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post #24 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 02:37 PM
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Don't horns have problems with high frequencies, it ain't smooth.
As NotNyt said, "ringy"


With my sealed subs, I'm already at the point where any more mid-bass (or bass period) and piccolos are gonna start sounding like tuba's. LOL

+5db @ 200hz
+10db @ 150hz
+15db @ 30hz
+25db <30hz
^^^ any more than this, is gonna start sounding bad, me thinks.
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post #25 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 02:56 PM
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Horns typically have limited usable bandwidth (about 2-3 octaves usually), where you want it is upto you. There is no ringing in horns (audibly) when it is well designed and used as intended. THs (which are popular on AVS) have a lot more frequency and time domain issues than FLHs but are more practical in terms of size. Often people here see designs tuned to 20Hz or lower (as people on here tend to focus on the low bass), this results in issues in the higher frequencies as you are trying to get too much bandwidth out of the horn, you may want to see some of the mid bass horns at - http://www.inlowsound.com/

The GH and DTS 10 are excellent examples of why not to use a low tuned tapped horn for more than 2 octaves above its knee.

All that said I believe in what I hear and feel, not graphs. They are tools to aid the process, the final judge is the experience.
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post #26 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 03:39 PM
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"All that said I believe in what I hear and feel, not graphs."


then you are looking at the wrong graphs. ;-)

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post #27 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likelinus View Post
Since it's midbass and you're on a budget, wouldn't those Eminence LAB 15s be a decent choice? At $210 for two, seems like you could load up on those.

I'd really like to see a midbass design based on the 4 ohm lab 15.
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post #28 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 03:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GizzeGutten View Post
I want the drivers to be flexible outside the scope of this project too, because I might want to use them for low end as well.
They are NOT subs and cannot be used as such.
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post #29 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bburnett View Post
I'd really like to see a midbass design based on the 4 ohm lab 15.
They're not midbasses.
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post #30 of 186 Old 08-22-2014, 03:54 PM
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Not having really read this thread, the driver with the best midbass punch (assuming that means the highest midbass fidelity/accuracy) is the driver that meets the following criteria:

1. Has the highest sensitivity in the mid bass band (think 30 to 150hz to give some overlap for XO);
2. Has the required Vd to achieve the desired SPL within that band (after XO is applied);
3. Has the best T/S parameters to fit the enclosure size that fits your space and still meet the bandwidth requirements;
4. Has a clean upper bass and lower midrange to allow for a clean cross over;
5. Has a smooth frequency response within the band (normally this is a much higher requirement, but the midbass bandwidth is usually always smooth on conventional direct radiators); and
6. Fits your budget of course.

You should of course be intimitely familiar with how your room measures, as you may be able to reduce your low end bandwidth requirements if you have room help around 30hz. For instance, not many sealed pro woofers will be flat to 30hz, but neither will many big LF subwoofers. However, that may not matter.
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