Dayton 15" ulitmax 4cuft sealed sub - not performing - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Dayton 15" ulitmax 4cuft sealed sub - not performing

So in the last 2 days I built a Subwoofer using the Dayton Ultimax 15" driver and Crown 1000w amp in a 4cu ft(~) sealed cabinet but it sounds rather awful to my ears. The sealed cabinet is well braced and pretty solid but I only used a thin amount of polyfill as I didn't have much on me at the time. Perhaps that's the problem or maybe I just don't like the way sealed subwoofers sound in my room. The sound is kind of thumpy and doesn't sound natural to my ears. It's also very directional, I can hear the bass coming from the cabinet even with crossover at 80hz, which is distracting. My pb-2000 didn't have that problem so much and sounded much more natural. I'm going to try vented but just wondered if there was anything obvious I was doing wrong, perhaps it's the polyfill. Any suggestions


Thanks.

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post #2 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 12:59 AM
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4cuft needs 4lbs of polyfill . That driver needs a huge ported cab to work .
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post #3 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 02:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
4cuft needs 4lbs of polyfill . That driver needs a huge ported cab to work .

Thanks, I'm in the middle of building a vented cabinet right now(11.75 cuft 6 inch port), hopefully I'll get better results.
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post #4 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 05:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
So in the last 2 days I built a Subwoofer using the Dayton Ultimax 15" driver and Crown 1000w amp in a 4cu ft(~) sealed cabinet but it sounds rather awful to my ears. The sealed cabinet is well braced and pretty solid but I only used a thin amount of polyfill as I didn't have much on me at the time. Perhaps that's the problem or maybe I just don't like the way sealed subwoofers sound in my room. The sound is kind of thumpy and doesn't sound natural to my ears. It's also very directional, I can hear the bass coming from the cabinet even with crossover at 80hz, which is distracting. My pb-2000 didn't have that problem so much and sounded much more natural. I'm going to try vented but just wondered if there was anything obvious I was doing wrong, perhaps it's the polyfill. Any suggestions


Thanks.
sub in same location? Have you measured the output with a sweep? Room modes/nodes? What is supplying the XO?
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post #5 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 06:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post
sub in same location? Have you measured the output with a sweep? Room modes/nodes? What is supplying the XO?

The Crown amp I'm using is crossed at 80hz and so is the receiver. The Dayton sub was in the same location as the pb-2000 subwoofer but I tried a couple of other positions in the room and I seem to be getting better results there but it's still not great and not as good as the svs pb-2000. I'm still in the process of putting together a vented cabinet and should have it up and running by tomorrow maybe, see how that goes. I'll get some more polyfiller and try it in the sealed cabinet, see if that makes a difference, I'll need some more for the vented cabinet anyway so I might as well try it but I'm hoping using a vented cabinet will solve my problems, that and a bit more calibration and running in.

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post #6 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 06:35 AM
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I'm not sure why the sound quality wouldn't be solid, but I would expect output to be slightly less than the PB-2000 since you went from a ported cab to a sealed one. Your Crown amp and the SVS amp put out similar RMS wattage, but I'd think the UM-15 could handle more than you're giving it. I'm sure you'll be very pleased with the ported design for that driver, but IMO when you go that big you should really consider the 18" model as the price difference is very small.
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post #7 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 07:01 AM
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You don't need to set a crossover on the Crown amp; the receiver will handle that for you. Which amp is it? XLS1000? Bridged?
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post #8 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 07:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
You don't need to set a crossover on the Crown amp; the receiver will handle that for you. Which amp is it? XLS1000? Bridged?

Yes, that's the one, bridged to 1000 watts. It has enough juice for my setup, I'm getting the volume I desire, I'm just not liking the sound all that much at this point.
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post #9 of 37 Old 08-23-2014, 07:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BrutalBodyShots View Post
I'm not sure why the sound quality wouldn't be solid, but I would expect output to be slightly less than the PB-2000 since you went from a ported cab to a sealed one. Your Crown amp and the SVS amp put out similar RMS wattage, but I'd think the UM-15 could handle more than you're giving it. I'm sure you'll be very pleased with the ported design for that driver, but IMO when you go that big you should really consider the 18" model as the price difference is very small.

I don't live in the States and only the 15" or 12" versions are available to me locally. The 15" driver, the Crown amp and the two cabinets I've built(sealed and vented) has cost me slightly more then I can buy a new svs pb-2000. I need to get it to work better than the pb-2000 otherwise this project has been a waste of time and money. I think going vented will get me there but I'm not exactly confident.

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post #10 of 37 Old 08-24-2014, 04:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
I don't live in the States and only the 15" or 12" versions are available to me locally. The 15" driver, the Crown amp and the two cabinets I've built(sealed and vented) has cost me slightly more then I can buy a new svs pb-2000. I need to get it to work better than the pb-2000 otherwise this project has been a waste of time and money. I think going vented will get me there but I'm not exactly confident.
What is your receiver or pre-amp brand & model? Do you have any EQ coming from the receiver or pre-amp?!have you ran a room correcting program like Audyssey or YPOE? What are your settings in the Crown amp? I am not familiar with that particular Crown amp, but, I would make sure that the sub is getting the proper signal in that you don't have any miss managed settings on the amp itself. The receiver should handle the crossover, and the Low Pass Filter. If you have that on your amp, turn it off.

Also, with your sealed enclosure; the likely reason you were under whelmed is because you need a separate EQ device to boost the low end, and, ideally, smooth the frequency response, set the proper phase and time alignment.
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post #11 of 37 Old 08-24-2014, 06:36 PM
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Have you measured it with REW and a measurement mic?

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post #12 of 37 Old 08-24-2014, 08:51 PM
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4 cu ft. in a sealed box with that driver should sound great, especially with that powerful amp. Odd... maybe more polyfill?

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post #13 of 37 Old 08-24-2014, 08:53 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Have you measured it with REW and a measurement mic?

I haven't done any measurements, I don't have the equipment, all I did was swap out the pb-2000 with the Dayton, did a quick calibration on the receiver and fired it up, but right now I'm in the middle of doing the vented cabinet. I'm almost finished and should have it up running today sometime.
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post #14 of 37 Old 08-24-2014, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by blake18 View Post
4 cu ft. in a sealed box with that driver should sound great, especially with that powerful amp. Odd... maybe more polyfill?

If the vented cabinet doesn't work out then I will have a look at that.
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post #15 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 03:47 AM - Thread Starter
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I've been testing my vented cabinet Dayton sub for the last hour with different material and I'm still not getting good results. It does sound a bit different to the sealed cabinet design but not better. I'm now at a loss at what to do next. I was reasonably happy with the pb-2000 so I should have just bought a second one or maybe upgraded to the pb12 plus.
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post #16 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 04:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
I've been testing my vented cabinet Dayton sub for the last hour with different material and I'm still not getting good results. It does sound a bit different to the sealed cabinet design but not better. I'm now at a loss at what to do next. I was reasonably happy with the pb-2000 so I should have just bought a second one or maybe upgraded to the pb12 plus.

Just relax, take a deep breath, and chill. I can assure you that buying the Dayton 15" UM15 and building a ported cab will be much better that the PB-2000, you just need to get it setup correctly, and that takes patients , research, measurements, gain structure optimization, ect...

Start by telling us what receiver you have, and how the settings are on your amp. I can't recall which amp you are using, but, describe all of the different setting options that it has, in case if am not familiar with that particular amp brand/model.

We will start by making sure the amp settings are correct, and that it is setup in your receiver correctly. I only have time to post in the early mornings, so you might try PM'ing me and I will try and help you get setup properly.
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post #17 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 06:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Martycool007 View Post
Just relax, take a deep breath, and chill. I can assure you that buying the Dayton 15" UM15 and building a ported cab will be much better that the PB-2000, you just need to get it setup correctly, and that takes patients , research, measurements, gain structure optimization, ect...

Start by telling us what receiver you have, and how the settings are on your amp. I can't recall which amp you are using, but, describe all of the different setting options that it has, in case if am not familiar with that particular amp brand/model.

We will start by making sure the amp settings are correct, and that it is setup in your receiver correctly. I only have time to post in the early mornings, so you might try PM'ing me and I will try and help you get setup properly.

Too late, I tossed the whole lot in the wheelie bin and ordered a pb12 plus.

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post #18 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 11:19 AM
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changing the sub won't make a difference, it's improper set-up. A single sub can create HUGE peaks and nulls in a room and sound terrible without EQ.


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post #19 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 11:36 AM
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I can't find the amp measurement thread, but I thought I remembered the XLS1000 as a bad choice for subwoofer power. I seem to recall it did not produce many watts down low. I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

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post #20 of 37 Old 08-25-2014, 08:31 PM
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post #21 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 02:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nirvy111 View Post
Too late, I tossed the whole lot in the wheelie bin and ordered a pb12 plus.

This was just an emotive comment, I didn't actually toss the sub in the bin and order the pb12 plus, that would be silly and require money I don't have.
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post #22 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 02:57 AM
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If you decide to sell the UM15, I have a buddy that might be interested in buying it from you! LoL
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post #23 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 07:36 AM
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This was just an emotive comment, I didn't actually toss the sub in the bin and order the pb12 plus, that would be silly and require money I don't have.
So will you be sharing the info that Marty asked for or are you all set? There are several folks on here trying to help you with the issue you asked for help with, we just need more information.


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post #24 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 08:30 AM - Thread Starter
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So will you be sharing the info that Marty asked for or are you all set? There are several folks on here trying to help you with the issue you asked for help with, we just need more information.

I've become disinterested in the project at this point and no longer request anyone's help.
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post #25 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 09:00 AM
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You might need one of these between your receiver and the Crown amp.

http://www.parts-express.com/talent-...erter--233-168

The crown amp's input sensitivity is very low, even on the line inputs, and the receiver's voltage output on the sub out won't be enough to light up the amp. One of the linked product (works similar to an ART Cleanbox) will provide the needed gain, and you can use the amp's balanced inputs. This is a recurring problem with using pro amps to drive subwoofers when a home theater receiver is the signal source. You might just barely get there with the amp gains maxed but won't have any breathing room.

Also make sure that no high pass filters are enabled in the XLS amp's processing.
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post #26 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 10:15 AM
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The yellow is the sealed response of the PB12


I get this with my UM-15's without EQ. (With EQ and a ULF boost they are completely flat to 10hz.)

My room has a nasty 90hz room-mode dip, and then a bunch of them above 100hz, and another at 54hz;
but driver distortion is low.

No idea about the "directional" comment, as that is exactly what I want in my application, XO is set at 250hz.

Until you measure it you just don't know.
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 08-26-2014 at 10:18 AM.
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post #27 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
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I've become disinterested in the project at this point and no longer request anyone's help.
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...
Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
...
He said that he no longer needs help.


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post #28 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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He said that he no longer needs help.

Technically I still need help but I've put it in the too hard basket for now. There are other things I'd rather focus on at this moment.
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post #29 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 09:53 PM
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I know sometimes we get sick of working on things if they aren't working...when you said, "The Crown amp I'm using is crossed at 80hz and so is the receiver," I figured I had to respond. :-)


the low pass on the sub itself should be turned OFF. that will only mess up the phase and could explain exactly what you are describing. the avr/receiver should handle the crossover duty.


this is the case whether running the ported or the sealed cab.

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post #30 of 37 Old 08-26-2014, 11:01 PM - Thread Starter
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I know sometimes we get sick of working on things if they aren't working...when you said, "The Crown amp I'm using is crossed at 80hz and so is the receiver," I figured I had to respond. :-)


the low pass on the sub itself should be turned OFF. that will only mess up the phase and could explain exactly what you are describing. the avr/receiver should handle the crossover duty.


this is the case whether running the ported or the sealed cab.

Thanks but I tried that. I switched the Crown amp to Bridged bypass(no crossover) with the receiver set to 80hz, didn't make any difference. I've taken the subwoofer apart and put it aside so further testing is not possible right now.

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