Are the SI18's a good Driver for Stonehenge? Would 8 of them sound good? - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 11:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Are the SI18's a good Driver for Stonehenge? Would 8 of them sound good?

My theater has pretty much been designed from this forum and past posts. The amount of knowledge and helpful people here is mind blowing.

The LCR's and surrounds have been ordered and I've picked up a bunch of the Crown amps that were on sale (again from a post on this site). Now on to the subs!

The guys over in the AVS speaker forum told me to go with DIY subs and check in here for help. My question is about the Stonehenge flat pack, are they a good box for behind an AT screen? I thought about doing something like Popalock had before he went with 24"s and stuff 8 sealed SI18"s under the screen, but it looks like a ported sub would fit better. Assuming I go with the Stonehenge, are the SI18's a good choice for a driver? Or would the UXL18's be a better option? The new SI HST18's seem like a good candidate too, but I REALLY, REALLY, REALLY like the price of the SI 18's for the performance. They seem like the best value.

So if I go with the Stonehenges and the SI18's, do I understand the impedance correctly that if I wire them (as shown in the photo) I can use two 2 ohm subs and use a 4 ohm X4000 amp (1,350 watts per channel) and get about 675 watts to each sub? I know the SI18's only handle about 600 so I would need to turn the gain down, right?

Cost wise it's about $225 a sub (shipped) for the SI-18's, Stonehenge is around $260 (shipped) and the Crown X4000 was $300 (powering 4 subs per amp). That puts my cost per sub (including amp to power it) at $560 per sub or $4,480 for 8 of them. Is there a better way to spend $4,480 dollars on subs? I could get a couple Seaton's or JTR's for about the same money, but the pure volume of 8 ported 18" subs seems like a better way to go. Plus the thought of 8 ported 18"s hitting at once seems like something you would feel more.

Any help or ideas would be greatly appropriated.









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post #2 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 11:45 AM
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Seems like 8 of those ported would be overkill, but I guess we like overkill around here. 8 would be cheaper if shipped on a pallet.

It's a shame you can't do your own crossover on those JBL's because there's enough stuff left over from the big JBL buy out thread to do everything you have posted.....except the surrounds.

I doubt you'll need that kind of power on those fronts or surrounds.


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post #3 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 11:54 AM
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Looks like an incredible build-out! I can attest, as I have 8 SI's in sealed enclosures that it will CERTAINLY be enough juice to make even the most demanding bass head happy

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post #4 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 12:13 PM
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I approve of the photo you used for the stonehenge box representation in your diagram.
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post #5 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 01:35 PM
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The 8 SI's should smash the equivelant money spent on Seaton or JTR offerings....SMASH

What Pre/Pro or AVR are you going to use? I'm curious how you plan to implement 6 surrounds.
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post #6 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 02:45 PM
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I'm sure the SI-18's are good, but they ain't no UXL-18. I'm sure 8 of them ain't nothing to sneeze at though...

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post #7 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 03:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I'm sure the SI-18's are good, but they ain't no UXL-18. I'm sure 8 of them ain't nothing to sneeze at though...
The HST's are though

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post #8 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 03:45 PM
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anyone else thinking that when 8 subs are in consideration, that sealed becomes a serious contender vs ported for that 10-20hz region? Upper SPL freq isn't an issue with either alignment.
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post #9 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 03:55 PM
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looks like a great theater in the works!

building something like this would save you quite a bit of money over flat packs while improving performance by locating the subs at points that will naturally cancel / not excite room modes.





member 316 built a quad version of this concept called 'bass cannons'.


he too was using jbl pro cinema speakers, but went with a full quad set per tower.







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post #10 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post
anyone else thinking that when 8 subs are in consideration, that sealed becomes a serious contender vs ported for that 10-20hz region? Upper SPL freq isn't an issue with either alignment.
Maybe... but considering his main speakers, he's going to be putting out some serious SPL. If he goes sealed, the SIs might not be able to keep up. BassThatHz had that problem... with LMS-5400s, IIRC. He was bottoming out his drivers so he went ported.

I'd chart out max SPL of sealed vs Stonehenge and see how that compares to your SPL demands.
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post #11 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 03:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
looks like a great theater in the works!


building something like this would save you quite a bit of money over flat packs while improving performance by locating the subs at points that will naturally cancel / not excite room modes.


member 316 built a quad version of this concept called 'bass cannons'.





he too was using jbl pro cinema speakers, but went with a full quad set per tower.







Help with speaker subwoofer design
Overkill: (n) Defined as having subwoofers so large that you can't even see the screen.
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post #12 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 05:11 PM
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Those bass cannons are Sick. .. wish I had a quad set.

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post #13 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Not sure yet, but was thinking about the Yamaha 2040. The photo might be misleading. There are only 2 side surrounds on each side (4 total) and 2 rears. Do you think this will be a problem?

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Originally Posted by JohnDean View Post
The 8 SI's should smash the equivelant money spent on Seaton or JTR offerings....SMASH

What Pre/Pro or AVR are you going to use? I'm curious how you plan to implement 6 surrounds.
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post #14 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 06:34 PM - Thread Starter
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Man those look fantastic! Are there any plans or specs for those bass cannons? I need to keep things thin as this all goes behind the screen. The Stonehenge's are only about 17" deep so they fit great.

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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
looks like a great theater in the works!

building something like this would save you quite a bit of money over flat packs while improving performance by locating the subs at points that will naturally cancel / not excite room modes.





member 316 built a quad version of this concept called 'bass cannons'.


he too was using jbl pro cinema speakers, but went with a full quad set per tower.







Help with speaker subwoofer design
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post #15 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 06:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I wish I knew how to chart them out, but still a stupid newbie.

Would it be better to go with 4 higher quality subs?


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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
Maybe... but considering his main speakers, he's going to be putting out some serious SPL. If he goes sealed, the SIs might not be able to keep up. BassThatHz had that problem... with LMS-5400s, IIRC. He was bottoming out his drivers so he went ported.

I'd chart out max SPL of sealed vs Stonehenge and see how that compares to your SPL demands.
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post #16 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 06:49 PM
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you're missing something in your wiring diagrams... If you want each SI to deliver a 2 ohm load, make sure you order the D4 version. It's kinda confusing, and perhaps you realize it, but your diagrams don't really indicate...

and each one can handle alot more than 600 watts.

What a long, strange trip its been....

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post #17 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 09:46 PM
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Wow what a project! Everything looks great.
Talk about a chance to do everything exactly the way you want it the first time.

I just picked up my Crown X2000 amps from Guitar Center this afternoon.
Going to use these amps to power all 6 of my speakers for my theater.
Wattage will be going from 75 a channel to 330 a channel.
Going to have to take some time and make sure the levels are nice and low and the crossovers are set correctly.
I use an EPX4000 for a bass amp and am pleased with how it performs.

Have you thought of doing 4 ported 18's to start and then adding on if you need more?
I spend more time turning down my quad 15 set up than I would like to admit.
I love overkill as much as the next guy but want to make sure my hearing survives until I can retire.

Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out!
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post #18 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 10:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Glad you brought this up. My goal is to use the Crown X4000 amps to power the subs. Since they provide 2 channels at 1,350 watts (4 ohms) per channel I thought I could wire 2 subs per channel. The subs only need 600 watts. What is the correct or best way to wire the subs so I have 2 subs per channel getting about 675 watts per channel? Do I need 2 or 4 ohm drivers?

Quote:
Originally Posted by wlhungdude View Post
you're missing something in your wiring diagrams... If you want each SI to deliver a 2 ohm load, make sure you order the D4 version. It's kinda confusing, and perhaps you realize it, but your diagrams don't really indicate...

and each one can handle alot more than 600 watts.


You make a good point. I can run all the wires for 8 subs and just start with 4. With 4 I might be plenty happy and my wallet will thank you. If I go with 4 subs, is there a better sub to use with the Stonehenge box? Is the UXL-18's a better ported driver?

Quote:
Originally Posted by jake515 View Post
Wow what a project! Everything looks great.
Talk about a chance to do everything exactly the way you want it the first time.

I just picked up my Crown X2000 amps from Guitar Center this afternoon.
Going to use these amps to power all 6 of my speakers for my theater.
Wattage will be going from 75 a channel to 330 a channel.
Going to have to take some time and make sure the levels are nice and low and the crossovers are set correctly.
I use an EPX4000 for a bass amp and am pleased with how it performs.

Have you thought of doing 4 ported 18's to start and then adding on if you need more?
I spend more time turning down my quad 15 set up than I would like to admit.
I love overkill as much as the next guy but want to make sure my hearing survives until I can retire.

Really looking forward to seeing how this turns out!
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post #19 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 10:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anthony_Gomez View Post
anyone else thinking that when 8 subs are in consideration, that sealed becomes a serious contender vs ported for that 10-20hz region? Upper SPL freq isn't an issue with either alignment.
No a LLT will walk all over sealed in the 10-20hz region. Multiple sealed is for that single digit extension. If you want gobs of output in the teens, ported is where its at and always will be.

Check this out.

http://www.seaton-sound-forum.com/po...woofer-7043903
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post #20 of 46 Old 08-27-2014, 10:49 PM
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the si drivers are dual voice coil, so-called d2 or d4. d2 is two coils at 2 ohms ea and can be wired in series for 4 ohms per driver or in parallel for 1 ohm per driver. d4 is two coils at 4 ohms ea and can be wired in series for 8 ohms per driver or in parallel for 2 ohm per driver.


if you want 2 drivers per channel and a net 4 ohm load, one option is to get d4 drivers and wire the coils in series on each driver, then wire a PAIR of DRIVERS in PARALLEL which will net out to 4 ohms per pair.


most folks run the si 18 ht driver with about 1000 watts.

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post #21 of 46 Old 08-28-2014, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Very good explanation. So is there an advantage to either set up?




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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the si drivers are dual voice coil, so-called d2 or d4. d2 is two coils at 2 ohms ea and can be wired in series for 4 ohms per driver or in parallel for 1 ohm per driver. d4 is two coils at 4 ohms ea and can be wired in series for 8 ohms per driver or in parallel for 2 ohm per driver.


if you want 2 drivers per channel and a net 4 ohm load, one option is to get d4 drivers and wire the coils in series on each driver, then wire a PAIR of DRIVERS in PARALLEL which will net out to 4 ohms per pair.


most folks run the si 18 ht driver with about 1000 watts.
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"Very good explanation. So is there an advantage to either set up?"


not really. it mostly comes down to what net load will work best with your amp.


so many folks have asked about this, I figured that I'd draw it up.


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post #23 of 46 Old 08-28-2014, 09:09 PM
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You make a good point. I can run all the wires for 8 subs and just start with 4. With 4 I might be plenty happy and my wallet will thank you. If I go with 4 subs, is there a better sub to use with the Stonehenge box? Is the UXL-18's a better ported driver?[/QUOTE]

The drivers you are talking about are well just great drivers to be honest. You are going to love whatever you choose. Me I tend to go for the best bang for the buck drivers but still high quality myself. Also factor in if the drivers you want are available to be shipped.

I wanted 18" ultimaxes but they were not available. I went the 15 inch route because they were available and cheaper. No regrets on my part.

Fired up the x2000's tonight for the first time, man the fans are quiet and the blue lights look cool. Sound wise I have a hard time telling them apart from my Rotel receiver. Everything sounds like it is happening in the room with you, very easy to get lost in the movie.
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post #24 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 07:11 AM
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If you wanted to do just the 4 subs, then I would probably give each sub its own channel. Additionally if you do just the 4 it would make more sense to give each of them more power than the 750 ish they would be getting. I give my 18's 1100 rms and the amp shuts down before the subs bottom out.
Down side to that is they would have to be D2's in order to see that 4 ohm load for a single sub per one channel.

A better choice if you wanted to run 4 or 8 subs would be 1 or 2 inuke6000's. You could have two subs on each channel and they each would be getting over 1000RMS. At $400 per amp its only $100 more than the crowns and you would have the built in DSP and more power to each sub. Also, parts express is having a sale at the moment, I got $25 off my order of 250 or more, $50 off a 500 or $100 off a thousand. Its not a ton of money but it all adds up in the end, especially as those inukes typically maintain their price of 279 and 399 varying by model.

If you wanted to stick with the crowns the Dayton HO's would be a good choice as they would already see that 4ohm load and can take a tad more power than the SI's, so giving them the full 1350 RMS @4ohm s would be great. But those drivers cost more compared to the SI's.

My friend bought 2 of the x4000's and he returned them for one inuke6000. Those crowns are a great deal but if the power per channel and load the speaker sees doesn't match up for the best 'bang for the buck" so to speak. Then going a different route is a better option.

Or you could just get a senway fp14000 clone and have more than enough power for all of the subs. Theres three for sale on Ebay at the moment one is only $525 bucks last time I check. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sanway-Lab-G...item19f25d5972
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post #25 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 07:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by C O D Y View Post
Man those look fantastic! Are there any plans or specs for those bass cannons? I need to keep things thin as this all goes behind the screen. The Stonehenge's are only about 17" deep so they fit great.
I need some "shallow" subs as well so I've been drawing out some slightly modified versions of the Cyclops - CYCLOPS....a new LTD02 design In the 2nd post where the cut-list is located, I changed the 14 1/2" to 16 to give me more enclosure volume. Tuning of the box stays the same and the volume goes up to about 3/4 of a cubic foot.

It takes 3 sheets of MDF to build 2 boxes. At $35/sheet, that's quite a savings.

One box will get a custom built 18" powered by a Behringer EP-2500 and the other will get dual 15" TC-3000 subs powered by another EP-2500.
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post #26 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Yes, I'm going to start with 4 18's and stepping up to the UXL18's too. Each driver will get 1 channel of the X4000 amp (about 1,350 amps). Getting ready to place the order, but I can't seem to get a hold of Mark at IST to double check the recommended ported box size for the UXL18's (not shown on his site) and to see if they are in stock.


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Originally Posted by lemonslush View Post
If you wanted to do just the 4 subs, then I would probably give each sub its own channel. Additionally if you do just the 4 it would make more sense to give each of them more power than the 750 ish they would be getting. I give my 18's 1100 rms and the amp shuts down before the subs bottom out.
Down side to that is they would have to be D2's in order to see that 4 ohm load for a single sub per one channel.

A better choice if you wanted to run 4 or 8 subs would be 1 or 2 inuke6000's. You could have two subs on each channel and they each would be getting over 1000RMS. At $400 per amp its only $100 more than the crowns and you would have the built in DSP and more power to each sub. Also, parts express is having a sale at the moment, I got $25 off my order of 250 or more, $50 off a 500 or $100 off a thousand. Its not a ton of money but it all adds up in the end, especially as those inukes typically maintain their price of 279 and 399 varying by model.

If you wanted to stick with the crowns the Dayton HO's would be a good choice as they would already see that 4ohm load and can take a tad more power than the SI's, so giving them the full 1350 RMS @4ohm s would be great. But those drivers cost more compared to the SI's.

My friend bought 2 of the x4000's and he returned them for one inuke6000. Those crowns are a great deal but if the power per channel and load the speaker sees doesn't match up for the best 'bang for the buck" so to speak. Then going a different route is a better option.

Or you could just get a senway fp14000 clone and have more than enough power for all of the subs. Theres three for sale on Ebay at the moment one is only $525 bucks last time I check. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Sanway-Lab-G...item19f25d5972

I saw that thread earlier and it's got some motivating ideas. I have access to a CNC machine and I also have the design software so making a box is always an option (I own a sign company). The Stonehenge flat pack is just so dang convenient and easy, but the shipping might kill that idea. It's going to be over $300 to ship 4 boxes.

Say, if I did design my own box how does a person go about "tuning" a sub enclosure? Design the Cu FT is not an issue, I just don't know how long to make the port to get a 18Hz to 20Hz tune.

If I do go the route of making a new design I could do a detailed build thread and I don't see why I couldn't share the end cut file online for free so anyone here that wanted to make the same sub enclosure could take it plus some MDF to a local sign shop with a CNC router. Just a thought.



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I need some "shallow" subs as well so I've been drawing out some slightly modified versions of the Cyclops - CYCLOPS....a new LTD02 design In the 2nd post where the cut-list is located, I changed the 14 1/2" to 16 to give me more enclosure volume. Tuning of the box stays the same and the volume goes up to about 3/4 of a cubic foot.

It takes 3 sheets of MDF to build 2 boxes. At $35/sheet, that's quite a savings.

One box will get a custom built 18" powered by a Behringer EP-2500 and the other will get dual 15" TC-3000 subs powered by another EP-2500.
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post #27 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 08:10 AM
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UXL-18's are a great choice! The box tune can be calculated in winisd. Ideal for the UXL is something like 13 cubic foot internal volume, tuned to 14 hz. I'd definitely make your own boxes, stonehenge are far from an ideal size and are way more expensive than building your own. Plus you have a CNC!!

UXL do better with more like 2000 watts but if you already have the crown's then 1350 will be ok.


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post #28 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by C O D Y View Post
I saw that thread earlier and it's got some motivating ideas. I have access to a CNC machine and I also have the design software so making a box is always an option (I own a sign company). The Stonehenge flat pack is just so dang convenient and easy, but the shipping might kill that idea. It's going to be over $300 to ship 4 boxes.

Say, if I did design my own box how does a person go about "tuning" a sub enclosure? Design the Cu FT is not an issue, I just don't know how long to make the port to get a 18Hz to 20Hz tune.

If I do go the route of making a new design I could do a detailed build thread and I don't see why I couldn't share the end cut file online for free so anyone here that wanted to make the same sub enclosure could take it plus some MDF to a local sign shop with a CNC router. Just a thought.
The Cyclops is about 7 cubic feet and with a 38" port it's tuned to 17hz. It's a combination of port area, port length and enclosure volume. Here's the math if you want to figure it out. http://www.diysubwoofers.org/misc/portcal.htm I would rather use the slot port calculator here - http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp
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post #29 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 08:38 AM - Thread Starter
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OMG, that is exactly what I needed! Guess I better start thing about designing a box. That Wedge shape would look SUPER cool and fit my room much better. Have I told you guys how much I love this site. Everyone here has been so extremely helpful and nice.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlj5242 View Post
The Cyclops is about 7 cubic feet and with a 38" port it's tuned to 17hz. It's a combination of port area, port length and enclosure volume. Here's the math if you want to figure it out. http://www.diysubwoofers.org/misc/portcal.htm I would rather use the slot port calculator here - http://www.the12volt.com/caraudio/boxcalcs.asp
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post #30 of 46 Old 08-29-2014, 10:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Dang, that speaker calculator is addicting. lol Just want to take the day off and design speakers now.

Guessing I'm not coming up with anything new, but here's a possible design for a max wedge that would fit my room nicely. Using the calculator it specs out nicely, however not sure if it would preform in the real world. Any thoughts on if this would be a good sounded design? The specs are about 6.78 cu ft with a turned port to 17.8 hertz.

If it turns out to be a usable design (and anyone else wants one) I could email the router file to Erich so he could sell them in flat packs. To be clear, I'm not looking for anything in return, just offering the design file to Erich for free if I do decide to make these.



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