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post #1 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 07:33 AM - Thread Starter
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sub placement issue

I have a weird issue (or it may not be so weird and I just haven't run across it before).. I have two marty subs right now in a 12 x 22 foot long room with the subs in the front right corner (both of them) and the seating position about 12-13 feet back from the front 12 ft wall. Now I've been shifting subs around trying to get the best location for adding a 3rd and a 4th.... my WEIRD issue was that I always thought the front two corners were best positions for subs, but when I moved one of my marty's over from both being in the front right corner to one in the left front, and one in the right front I created a huge suckout right at the seating position. I move the marty back over to the right corner with it's partner and BAM, that chest rattling bass is back. It's more "directional" as I can tell it's coming from the right, while both in the front corners smoothed it out dramatically, but there was a BIG difference in that chest rattling "power" that I had from them co-located next to each other. I'm wondering was it just because I'm getting an SPL increase from having thee two marty's so close to each other that I noticed the difference? or if I make a 3rd one and put it there will it create that null again? (I'm in the process of getting ready to build a couple more and was hoping to put one in the front left corner and one in the back left corner of the room to gain some spl and cancel room nulls)
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post #2 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:00 AM
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If you move them apart, then you have to set their delays or they risk being out of phase...
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post #3 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:01 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
If you move them apart, then you have to set their delays or they risk being out of phase...
I thought you didn't have to adjust delays if they are on the same horizontal plane?
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post #4 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:18 AM
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Depends on a lot of factors, but my guess is that they are out of phase... I bet if you play with distances on one, you'll notice something...
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post #5 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
Depends on a lot of factors, but my guess is that they are out of phase... I bet if you play with distances on one, you'll notice something...
gotcha, I'll give it a run... one stupid question since I'm at work. I'm running a pro amp vs a plate amp on these with a minidsp handling the hpf.... I'm used to the phase knob on a plate amp... is the phase/delay feature on the actual amp or in the minidsp???
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post #6 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:32 AM
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That's a good question... The minidsp should have settings for each sub depending on how you have it all connected... If the pro amp is running bridged on both subs then you won't be able to adjust settings on each sub independently since your system is looking at both subs as if they are one... But. If you have a sub on each channel of the amp, then you should be able to adjust them independently of each other via dsp OR if your receiver has sub 1 and sub 2 then it could also adjust each independently... But the dsp is probably the one to use...
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post #7 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:33 AM
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Which Pro Amp? The Inuke's have a delay and phase setting that can be adjusted. Also, have you tried positioning them in opposite corners (on in front L, one in back R corner)?

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post #8 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:35 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
That's a good question... The minidsp should have settings for each sub depending on how you have it all connected... If the pro amp is running bridged on both subs then you won't be able to adjust settings on each sub independently since your system is looking at both subs as if they are one... But. If you have a sub on each channel of the amp, then you should be able to adjust them independently of each other via dsp OR if your receiver has sub 1 and sub 2 then it could also adjust each independently... But the dsp is probably the one to use...
gotcha, I'm using a Peavey IPR 3000 so it running one per channel so no bridging going on... I have my unbalanced 2x4 running both subs out of one sub output on the receiver. I'll have to break out my buddies laptop again to see if I can play with the delays on the minidsp... which subs delay should I tweak? the one that I moved to the left or the one I left on the right?
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post #9 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:43 AM
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I would play each sub separately and see which one sounds the best at LP... Then adjust the weaker... You can also try the trick of setting one sub perfect for LP, then add in 2nd sub and set delay until it is totally out of phase with the 1st sub, then flip the phase 180 and it should be in perfect sync...
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post #10 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:50 AM - Thread Starter
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one curious question. why would a bridged amp have anything to do with setting delays/phase with a minidsp? wouldn't the minidsp's channel be operating the delays and no care where the power is from since it's outputting each sub onto a separate output on the dsp?
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post #11 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:50 AM
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Or you can adjust distance in your avr if it has the means to do so. Another is to use REW with the room simulator and place your subs. I did this to begin with and the sim came fairly close to the actual readings.

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post #12 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
when I moved one of my marty's over from both being in the front right corner to one in the left front, and one in the right front I created a huge suckout right at the seating position.
This explains why:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/i...e_power_alley/

This tends to be more of an issue in large venues, where the direct radiation from the subs dominates response, rather than in homes, where the reflected waves off boundaries are just as significant, but it does happen in homes as well. This, and the fact that having both subs in the front of the room will excite the same front to rear room modes and rear wall reflection nulls, is why you generally get a better result with one sub in the front of the room and the other in the back of the room.
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post #13 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:55 AM
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When you bridge and run mono you have one channel... So both subs would either be wired in series or parallel to that one channel as if they are one speaker... So all adjustments you make are being applied to both subs since they aren't separated...
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post #14 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
When you bridge and run mono you have one channel... So both subs would either be wired in series or parallel to that one channel as if they are one speaker... So all adjustments you make are being applied to both subs since they aren't separated...
durrrr, my brain forgot about having both subs wired in series or parallel then... /facepalm....
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post #15 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 08:59 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
This explains why:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/i...e_power_alley/

This tends to be more of an issue in large venues, where the direct radiation from the subs dominates response, rather than in homes, where the reflected waves off boundaries are just as significant, but it does happen in homes as well. This, and the fact that having both subs in the front of the room will excite the same front to rear room modes and rear wall reflection nulls, is why you generally get a better result with one sub in the front of the room and the other in the back of the room.
makes sense... I have a rectangular room too, with depth being double the width of the room so it acts a lot more like a tube in the way the sound waves interact.


I'll also have to get a longer speakon cable so I can put the sub in the back opposite corner to see if that helps (where I was going to put the 3rd and 4th sub originally due to space limitations)
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post #16 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:06 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
This explains why:
http://www.prosoundweb.com/article/i...e_power_alley/

This tends to be more of an issue in large venues, where the direct radiation from the subs dominates response, rather than in homes, where the reflected waves off boundaries are just as significant, but it does happen in homes as well. This, and the fact that having both subs in the front of the room will excite the same front to rear room modes and rear wall reflection nulls, is why you generally get a better result with one sub in the front of the room and the other in the back of the room.
Excellent point!

His room is 12x22 so he would be better off having the two subs next to each other? What should he do when he adds two more subs?
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post #17 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:07 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
Excellent point!

His room is 12x22 so he would be better off having the two subs next to each other? What should he do when he adds two more subs?
I second this question.
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post #18 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:08 AM
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If you're not making measurements to tweak gain on the subs to achieve similar SPL at your LP when evaluating different sub locations, it can be hard to do an apples to apples comparison. For example, your chest thumping bass with both subs co-located in the corner could likely be due to a boost in output from near-field coupling of the 2 subs. otoh, it could also be due to a peak in the 50Hz region due to sub location. Perhaps both in the front corners might be better to smooth things out (as you mentioned) but may require the subs to be driven harder (assuming they have the headroom) to achieve the same overall SPL that you require (or are used to). Without measurements, it can be a bit hard to determine which location is better. Even without measurements, perhaps run some LFE test tone sweeps using REW and use your ears to determine if the output at most frequencies sounds relatively flat v/s artificially peaked/nulled due to room modes.
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post #19 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
If you're not making measurements to tweak gain on the subs to achieve similar SPL at your LP when evaluating different sub locations, it can be hard to do an apples to apples comparison. For example, your chest thumping bass with both subs co-located in the corner could likely be due to a boost in output from near-field coupling of the 2 subs. otoh, it could also be due to a peak in the 50Hz region due to sub location. Perhaps both in the front corners might be better to smooth things out (as you mentioned) but may require the subs to be driven harder (assuming they have the headroom) to achieve the same overall SPL that you require (or are used to). Without measurements, it can be a bit hard to determine which location is better. Even without measurements, perhaps run some LFE test tone sweeps using REW and use your ears to determine if the output at most frequencies sounds relatively flat v/s artificially peaked/nulled due to room modes.
yeah, I was wondering about the co-location factor being part of it.

my problem with REW is.... I don't own a laptop, making it a BIT hard to run sweeps.

and as for tweaking to run one sub harder... I'm out of headroom. two marty's are taxed to their limit as I'm going for more output (the whole moving one to the left corner was to see how it would be with the addition of a 3rd and 4th....for added smoothing and beefier SPL... with both subs co-located on the right front I get a huge amount of power at my listening position AND in the back of the room. with one on either side of the front of the room I get that same amount of power at the back of the room but it's sucked out pretty bad at the listening position.

one other weird thing. I can level match each sub with the gain knob on my amp with my sple meter (as the left position has to be cranked a bit higher than the right), and get the same level on my spl meter... it's just that the feeling of being hit in the chest is completely gone and it SOUNDS less powerful as well with them on opposite ends of the room. the spl meter reads the same at each location when adjusted, it just feels like that brutal power is a whimpering kitten in comparison
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post #20 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:28 AM
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
Excellent point!

His room is 12x22 so he would be better off having the two subs next to each other? What should he do when he adds two more subs?
I would think, that in rooms, there are 2 issues. Co-locating subs would help with removing the direct interference effects from having 2 subs that are apart from each other as described in the article Bill linked to. Moreover, you also get an enhancement in SPL due to near-field coupling from the in-phase subs. However, in a room, you also have room modes to contend with, and often times they can be very dominant. Colocating subs have a disadvantage when it comes to battling room modes as they effectively act as a single sub, so unless you are able to find a magic sweet spot in your room for a single sub that gives pretty good, flat response across your main listening positions (it can be possible to find such locations, but they may not be convenient), you will likely have trouble achieving smooth output. Moreover, a single sub will never be able to achieve smooth bass across a number of listener positions as the room modes will come into play at different locations. But if all you care about is good bass response across a single couch in a room, then it is achievable using a single or co-located subs placed at an optimal location.

Multiple subs placed at different room locations with tweaked phase/delay and gain settings can really help smooth out the effect of room modes and greatly increase the number of LPs where you get smooth bass. However, it is not trivial to do this and does require time, effort and ideally, measurement software to ensure that you aren't making things worse by having your multiple subs destructively interfering with each other at your LPs.

Last edited by orion2001; 10-24-2014 at 09:35 AM.
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post #21 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:34 AM
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
one other weird thing. I can level match each sub with the gain knob on my amp with my sple meter (as the left position has to be cranked a bit higher than the right), and get the same level on my spl meter... it's just that the feeling of being hit in the chest is completely gone and it SOUNDS less powerful as well with them on opposite ends of the room. the spl meter reads the same at each location when adjusted, it just feels like that brutal power is a whimpering kitten in comparison
I am assuming you are using some pink/white noise test tone (or AVR tone) to do the SPL measurement? From what I've read here on the forums, that chest kick comes from the 40-60Hz range of bass frequencies. A white noise test tone will have a whole range of frequencies. SPL matching just with a test tone is only giving you an average across all the frequencies the sub is capable of outputting but it gives you no knowledge about the variation in SPL with frequency at your listener position (which is why tools like REW are very beneficial). What could easily be happening is that either a) Your colocated positioning is giving you an artificial bump at the 40-60Hz range while the other arrangement is giving you a wider and flatter response but with less average SPL in the 40-60Hz as a result; or b) Your arrangement with subs in corners results in nulls in the 40-60Hz range and when you SPL match, you have higher output at other frequencies but less in that range and thus the reduced "kick" in what you are listening to/feeling at your LP.
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post #22 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
I am assuming you are using some pink/white noise test tone (or AVR tone) to do the SPL measurement? From what I've read here on the forums, that chest kick comes from the 40-60Hz range of bass frequencies. A white noise test tone will have a whole range of frequencies. SPL matching just with a test tone is only giving you an average across all the frequencies the sub is capable of outputting but it gives you no knowledge about the variation in SPL with frequency at your listener position (which is why tools like REW are very beneficial). What could easily be happening is that either a) Your colocated positioning is giving you an artificial bump at the 40-60Hz range while the other arrangement is giving you a wider and flatter response but with less average SPL in the 40-60Hz as a result; or b) Your arrangement with subs in corners results in nulls in the 40-60Hz range and when you SPL match, you have higher output at other frequencies but less in that range and thus the reduced "kick" in what you are listening to/feeling at your LP.
yeah, just a standard AVR test tone to level match


I'm leaning more towards the nulls in that range after some guess/test/revise situations.... as


1. when I just turn ONE sub on in that right corner I still have that chest rumbling/arm hair raising bass that I have with the twins... just a little less umphh to them.

2. when I turn both on it obviously amps it up due to co-location, gives me more output

3. I can feel that same ferocity at the midpoint of the room (seating position) and at the back of the room , but when I swap the other sub to the left corner and have both running I STILL feel that level at the back of the room, but I can literally feel myself stepping into a bubble at my seating position where it gets sucked out.


I'll have to test the back left corner to see if that helps in any way, but I'll need a longer speakon cable. But then again I'll have to see about someday acquiring a laptop to run REW with
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post #23 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:03 AM
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Does sound like a null from interaction between the 2 subs. Do you have independent outputs for 2 subs on your AVR with control for individual delays? If not, have you tried playing with the phase setting on one of the 2 subs when they are at the 2 corners? That could help you move that null away from your LP and to some other part of the room where you won't care as much about it.

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I'll have to test the back left corner to see if that helps in any way, but I'll need a longer speakon cable. But then again I'll have to see about someday acquiring a laptop to run REW with
You could try something like this: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...ofers--300-580

They work quite well and allow for quite a bit of flexibility with sub locations.

I actually have a new one on hand that I've tested but never used. Feel free to PM me if you're interested as I'm looking to get rid of it.
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post #24 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
You could try something like this: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...ofers--300-580

They work quite well and allow for quite a bit of flexibility with sub locations.

I actually have a new one on hand that I've tested but never used. Feel free to PM me if you're interested as I'm looking to get rid of it.
I'm currently using one of these for my setup and have zero issues so far.

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post #25 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:19 AM
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Originally Posted by mlah384 View Post
His room is 12x22 so he would be better off having the two subs next to each other? What should he do when he adds two more subs?
http://www.harman.com/EN-US/OurCompa...s/multsubs.pdf

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post #26 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by orion2001 View Post
Does sound like a null from interaction between the 2 subs. Do you have independent outputs for 2 subs on your AVR with control for individual delays? If not, have you tried playing with the phase setting on one of the 2 subs when they are at the 2 corners? That could help you move that null away from your LP and to some other part of the room where you won't care as much about it.


You could try something like this: http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-...ofers--300-580

They work quite well and allow for quite a bit of flexibility with sub locations.

I actually have a new one on hand that I've tested but never used. Feel free to PM me if you're interested as I'm looking to get rid of it.
I do have 2 independent outputs on my AVR (at least I THINK they're independent), but at the moment I'm using one output and having that feed in to a 2x4 minidsp...so I'll have to adjust the delay/phase settings inside the DSP sometime tonight when I get home... see if that adjustment helps any.
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post #27 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by wormraper View Post
I do have 2 independent outputs on my AVR (at least I THINK they're independent), but at the moment I'm using one output and having that feed in to a 2x4 minidsp...so I'll have to adjust the delay/phase settings inside the DSP sometime tonight when I get home... see if that adjustment helps any.
But don't you then have the minidsp feeding only 1 input channel on your amp? If so then adjusting delay will not do anything between the 2 subs since it would be equally applied, may help with integration with the mains, but that doesn't seem to be the issue...

You need independent delay/phase control for each sub.

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post #28 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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But don't you then have the minidsp feeding only 1 input channel on your amp? If so then adjusting delay will not do anything between the 2 subs since it would be equally applied, may help with integration with the mains, but that doesn't seem to be the issue...

You need independent delay/phase control for each sub.
no, I have the minidsp feeding TWO inputs on my amp... one for each channel. it's not bridged
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post #29 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:45 AM
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no, I have the minidsp feeding TWO inputs on my amp... one for each channel. it's not bridged
Oh, my bad. I could have sworn earlier in the thread you said you were running 2 subs off a single bridged channel...

In that case, you should be gtg, but I would still try the front right, back left configuration and the front center/back center as well.

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post #30 of 41 Old 10-24-2014, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Tucson Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by squiers007 View Post
Oh, my bad. I could have sworn earlier in the thread you said you were running 2 subs off a single bridged channel...

In that case, you should be gtg, but I would still try the front right, back left configuration and the front center/back center as well.
nah, lol, that was us talking about why delay/phase wouldn't work IF I was running it that way. luckily I'm running my IPR 3000 in stereo (I would have had them bridged if I had gone with the Inuke 3000)


yeah, I'm going to try the front-right/back-left scenario as well, just need to hit up monoprice for a cheap speakon cable to give it a test run. ....front center and back center won't work unfortunately.... the fun of using a living room for your HT room too. but I'll try the phase thing first, if that doesn't do anything then it's the back-left, front right scenario (although I may have to adjust the delays for that as well lol)
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