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post #1 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 09:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Mid Bass Modules

This might be too general of a question, but figured I should ask.

If you were building a pair of mid bass modules, is there a certain frequency range your enclosure should be tuned to? Would it be around 35hz-40hz?
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post #2 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 09:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Erich H View Post
This might be too general of a question, but figured I should ask.

If you were building a pair of mid bass modules, is there a certain frequency range your enclosure should be tuned to? Would it be around 35hz-40hz?
I'm aiming for 35-36hz with mine.
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post #3 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 09:44 PM
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HAHA only at AVS is 35-40hz considered midbass!
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post #4 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 09:45 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
I'm aiming for 35-36hz with mine.
Luke ,
I have 4subs, one 18 and three 15 ported (with 2 being nearfield ). I have my lpf set at 100hz. I feel like I get as much midbass as I need. Would a mbm really give me more ?
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post #5 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 09:57 PM
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Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Luke ,
I have 4subs, one 18 and three 15 ported (with 2 being nearfield ). I have my lpf set at 100hz. I feel like I get as much midbass as I need. Would a mbm really give me more ?
Probably not.

Mine will be part of my new mains, and they'll be running up to 500-600hz and crossed with a BMS 4594.

I'll probably be crossing them at 60hz.
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post #6 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Probably not.

Mine will be part of my new mains, and they'll be running up to 500-600hz and crossed with a BMS 4594.

I'll probably be crossing them at 60hz.
Thanks
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post #7 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 10:00 PM
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Donny, the idea of using an MBM is (at least from my perspective):

Eliminate the floor reflection;
XO to the mains higher than normal to increase output capability;
XO subs lower to reduce localization;
Others
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post #8 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 10:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Many years ago when I was first setting up my theater room I really didn't know what I was doing at all. I had two 12" subs that I got from Elemental Designs and put them in some ported MTX enclosures I got from Circuit City. They really had some great chest pounding bass but of course not much for movies. I later moved them into Sonotubes but lost that chest pounding.

I can't recall what they were tuned to, but I'm thinking it was either 37hz or 42hz.
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post #9 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 10:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Donny, the idea of using an MBM is (at least from my perspective):

Eliminate the floor reflection;
XO to the mains higher than normal to increase output capability;
XO subs lower to reduce localization;
Others
I shouldn't get floor reflections from two subs nearfield I think. I am xo the 1099 at 80. Shouldn't need to raise that ? One of the reasons I went with 4 subs (in rectangle pattern) was to have higher xo and not locate them. I can't locate them .

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post #10 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 11:13 PM
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Chest pounding... 60-120hz..
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"The boom is dead, long live the bass"
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post #11 of 82 Old 10-26-2014, 11:34 PM
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it kind of depends on the driver, but let's take a look at the big picture first...


the purpose of the mid bass module, originally, was to fill in the hole that is created when low sensitivity mains are used with low sensitivity subs.


what happened is in the move from the old skool large, high-sensitivity speakers, such as the big cerwin vega, klipsch, jbls, even some bose, et al. in favor of "sub/sat" systems with wide ranging frequency response, such as 20-20khz systems, the problem was that these new systems, being low sensitivity and in most cases underpowered achieved their goal of full range response and relatively smooth frequency response, BUT in the process could no longer produce the "midbass" that made the big old speakers so dynamic and so much fun.


the region of the frequency response that comprised the "midbass" is from about 50-150hz or so. in that region, the spectral content of music can run 10db or more higher on average and in many cases up to 20db or more than the spl of the midrange and upper end. so if you like to listen to loud music at 90db or so on average at the listening position, the speakers need to be producing upwards of 120db or more at the speaker in the mid-bass region. the big old skool designs (which are still used in pro cinemas and other p.a. rigs today) had sensitivity in the upper 90's, so with 100 watts, the speakers could just about product the 120db target.


with the "sub/sat" systems, the sensitivity of the speakers often dropped down to the low 80's, so 100 watts or even more power didn't get anywhere close to producing the required spl for good kick. then the conversation turned to "it must be the room" and a whole laundry list of other things that explained why these new systems produced anemic mid-bass. some of these explanations have some merit, but many times miss the forest for the trees.


as a kludge remedy to the problem, some companies introduced "mid bass modules" which were typically high sensitivity drivers designed to restore the spl potential in the 50-150hz region or so that had been lost with sub/sat systems. they work ok, but are an integration nightmare (typically) because half that range tends to be otherwise covered by the mains and half that range tends to be covered by the conventional subs. moreover, just adding speakers randomly to a system can actually make it worse because of phase problems and the resulting cancellations.


as a result several solutions have emerged and none seem to have a lock on being ideal. the first solution is "bigger mains" and a lower crossover point. a single 15" or a pair of 15"s of medium high sensitivity can really belt out the uncompressed spl from 50-150hz. such a system is a solution and the crossover to the subs can be lowered to 50hz or so (or even run full range). this puts all the mid-bass in the mains is easy to integrate and lots of folks get good results with this approach.


another option is to come at from the subwoofer side. a single sub at 84db sensitivity may be able to take 1000 watts power, but for a variety of reasons, it will start compressing in the upper bass with that much power and even with that much power the spl target cannot be achieved. this is why many folks who get a single lms ultra or other similarly capable super-sub and a big amp are still left wanting more in the upper bass. of course, one thing that we have learned over the many years is that multiple subs can make up deficiencies in singles, with each doubling adding not only 6db to the total output capability but 6db to the level before the dynamics start to be compressed. 4 subs such as the lms with good power tends to be about where the uncompressed spl capability is sufficiently high that an 80hz or higher crossover point can be used and still retain good mid bass.


for a ported midbass module with a medium high sensitivity driver, something in the region of 35-45hz would probably be typical, as this provides the most spl across the target range >50hz while allowing for a little over lap when used with typical crossover networks that do not provide brick wall filtering.


an important point to all of this is that the listening level for different folks is literally all over the map. some consider 100db peaks in the music to be sufficient while others press toward 130db (or more). 30db is a system that is 1000 times different in terms of output and explains why some folks are happy with their bose cube based systems while others drive toward dual p.a. 12"-15" mains and eight or more 18" subwoofers with jigawatts of power before they consider the system as "there". with movies there tends to be something of a "reference" maximum 115-123db* peaks depending on redirection/summing, but for music the sky is the limit, with electronic dance club music pushing the upper 120's routinely.


* it could be 127db or more, but for the most part a 123db capable system will not be constrained while reproducing full reference theater bass

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Last edited by LTD02; 10-27-2014 at 02:16 AM.
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post #12 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 01:13 AM
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Great post as always LTD, I would only also propose that reflections from the front wall can be a real problem that should be considered in real rooms, and one that isn't solved by extending the range of the mains. The troubled frequency depends on placement of course, but seems to center around 80 Hz for commonly used spacing of mains from the wall, closer being higher. One strategy would seem to be running subs or bass modules upward of 80 Hz with placement flush to the front wall, and appropriate delays to align the system in time.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.
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post #13 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 01:15 AM
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no doubt that reflection-based cancellations and to a lesser extent room modes can punch a hole right in the mid-bass.

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post #14 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 01:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by antisuck View Post
Great post as always LTD, I would only also propose that reflections from the front wall can be a real problem that should be considered in real rooms, and one that isn't solved by extending the range of the mains. The troubled frequency depends on placement of course, but seems to center around 80 Hz for commonly used spacing of mains from the wall, closer being higher. One strategy would seem to be running subs or bass modules upward of 80 Hz with placement flush to the front wall, and appropriate delays to align the system in time.

I'd be interested in your thoughts.
front wall meaning which wall?

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post #15 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 02:23 AM
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^^ any of them. 1/4 distance to the wall gives a reflection that knocks out ~3db-6db (each).


http://peavey.com/support/technotes/...ncellation.pdf

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post #16 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
no doubt that reflection-based cancellations and to a lesser extent room modes can punch a hole right in the mid-bass.
This is my main purpose for my mbms, not output. We use multi subs to smooth the modal region below 80hz. Obviously we can't use scattered subs up to 200-300hz but this is still the modal region and often the response is pretty bad due to reflections and modes. An mbm placed around 1wl or less away (1 wl that corresponds to its low pass) that's in a different position in x y and z can do a good deal of smoothing. Like ltd said integration can be difficult and will make or break that setup.
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post #17 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 07:04 AM
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Anything in the 40hz range I'd think is a good tune. But basically isn't this just another sub with higher tune ?

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post #18 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 07:16 AM
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For what is worth, as an example.... Hsu Research's own mid-bass module is tuned to 50hz (50 - 250 Hz +/- 2 dB) and can be run in either ported or sealed modes. http://www.hsuresearch.com/products/mbm-12mk2.html
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post #19 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 07:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chalugadp View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Donny, the idea of using an MBM is (at least from my perspective):

Eliminate the floor reflection;
XO to the mains higher than normal to increase output capability;
XO subs lower to reduce localization;
Others
I shouldn't get floor reflections from two subs nearfield I think. I am xo the 1099 at 80. Shouldn't need to raise that ? One of the reasons I went with 4 subs (in rectangle pattern) was to have higher xo and not locate them. I can't locate them .

With all those island boys coming over its time for you guys to host a gtg and we will come over to you.
It's not about subs. To minimize the floor reflection from the mains. I'm talking generally too, not just your setup. When you put a woofer near the floor and cross at 150hz or what ever you can do a lot of room control. This is not a subwoofer from 80hz and down thing.
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post #20 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 07:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
It's not about subs. To minimize the floor reflection from the mains. I'm talking generally too, not just your setup. When you put a woofer near the floor and cross at 150hz or what ever you can do a lot of room control. This is not a subwoofer from 80hz and down thing.
It needs to be under the main like speaker stand though.. right?

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post #21 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 07:50 AM
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You guys read my mind, I will be soon putting a pair of TD15X in sealed MBM under my SEOS12/TD10M mains.
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post #22 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 07:54 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
It needs to be under the main like speaker stand though.. right?
Not necessarily, but since MBM's are often have a crossover setting above where bass is localizable they should be positioned so that localization is not an issue.

In my avatar I have my mains sitting on a MBM (in my case a flanking sub) but the driver is rear facing and is a good 30" from the woofer of my main. I have it running up to 180 Hz (upper cutoff determined by measurements).

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post #23 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 08:30 AM
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Originally Posted by kingpin111 View Post
front wall meaning which wall?
Way late, but I was referring specifically to the wall you face while listening, the wall behind the LCR speakers. Reflections from that wall cause a notch in response based on quarter wavelengths and how far the speaker baffle is in front of the wall. It turns out a distance of about a meter puts the notch at around 85 Hz, half a meter puts it around 170 Hz, etc.
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post #24 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 08:34 AM
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No, but to avoid localization it should be close. And delay may be required to align them. Like Nate said, this is what an MBM is for IMO. Put a source where it performs the best.

EDIT - that was for mfusik's question.

Last edited by tuxedocivic; 10-27-2014 at 12:50 PM.
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post #25 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 09:24 AM
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Would three cheap thrills make for a good mid bass module? Or you think it would be better off to just build 3 fusion 15's?
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post #26 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 09:46 AM
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FWIW - I purchased two Eminence Deltalight II 2512s for mid-bass.

I will be using them from about 80hz.
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post #27 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 10:03 AM
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CHT SS18.1s that people are selling for peanuts these days can make excellent MBMs.

http://www.data-bass.com/data?page=s...d=101&mset=114
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post #28 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 10:18 AM
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Would three cheap thrills make for a good mid bass module? Or you think it would be better off to just build 3 fusion 15's?
Cheap thrill is the name of a speaker. Like "FUSION 15" is the name of a speaker.

It's basically a FUSION 15 but with really high value parts - hence the name "cheap thrill"

It used a really nice Celestion buyout driver that was quite a bargain, and a DNA 350 (instead of 360) which is basically almost as good for cheaper. It used a 12" SEOS I think (not sure the 15" waveguide in plastic was out back then).

Total price of the kit was quite a bit cheaper than the current FUSION 15, and it was a two way design that was somewhat similar.

Hopeful Fred made a pair for his theater, as did a few others until the woofers sold out.

Bill W (designer) had commented there was something nice about that driver, it just worked good.

If you mean the 15" Celestion driver from the Cheap Thrill Kit- then yeah.. you could use that. You basically can use any 15" pro audio driver to make a MBM I think- it all matters about the enclosure, tuning... intended use etc...

MBM is just a higher tuned subwoofer for the most part- giving you that higher bass slam. Since you run it high up in frequency, you want to locate it near your L+R or LCR so the localization (telling where the sound is coming from) does not mess you up as you run them higher up. Below 80hz localization is not a big problem at all, but from 80hz-250hz it certainly can be. Higher the frequency the easier it is to tell where it is coming from. Locating it properly lets you run the MBM higher before your cross over to the mains.

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post #29 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post
You guys read my mind, I will be soon putting a pair of TD15X in sealed MBM under my SEOS12/TD10M mains.
You will like that. I really like my TD18H's.

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post #30 of 82 Old 10-27-2014, 01:53 PM
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Quote:
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You guys read my mind, I will be soon putting a pair of TD15X in sealed MBM under my SEOS12/TD10M mains.
How much air space per TD15x?
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