Considering HS24 build but dual UXL's model better. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 31 Old Yesterday, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Considering HS24 build but dual UXL's model better.

I have been eyeballing the SI HS24 for a while now and was going to build one, but I think that I might have changed my mind. The hs24 would have to be in a 15 cubic foot box and that doesn't really model better than my captivator S2 which has a considerably smaller footprint. LTD02 was nice enough to model it for me using UXL drivers instead of the S2 fi drivers which are about the same. The red is the S2 and the blue is the hs24 with 2000 watts.





I think that I would rather buy 4 UXL drivers for a few hundred more and get twice the output. Does anybody have in-room measurements between the hs24 and another well regarded 18"? Any thoughts to why I should reconsider going back to buying the hs24? Thanks in advanced.
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post #2 of 31 Old Yesterday, 06:42 PM
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The sims should be reasonably accurate provide the t/s data from the manufacturers are accurate.

You could go with the 18" Sundown x.4 as well. It measures about the same as the UXL and might be more readily available.

I went down that road two and had considered going with dual 24s' and perhaps I should have snagged them at the time.
I made your point in another thread...regarding the VAS required and price tag. When you can get 2 or more top of the line 18s for the same or less money and use 'em in smaller enclosure(s), the 24 loses some of its cache despite the performance and cool factor of a single driver.

There is no perfect answer to bass bliss though. If I wanted to have the driver visible, 24 all the way! I would find a way to make it work! Man, that is one sweet piece of audio gear.

Hopefully, Ricci will get the 24 test data posted soon. That might help make the case for the 24 regardless of price.

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post #3 of 31 Old Yesterday, 07:25 PM
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If the sound of the ulx18 works, why not model two ftw-21s in 15 cf or two 7.5 cf. Makes the box size required for the 24 seem a bit large

The 24 driver size is cool though. For the extreme factor I would like a $1,000 something larger that fits in under 20 cf. Anyone?
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post #4 of 31 Old Yesterday, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post
The sims should be reasonably accurate provide the t/s data from the manufacturers are accurate.

You could go with the 18" Sundown x.4 as well. It measures about the same as the UXL and might be more readily available.

I went down that road two and had considered going with dual 24s' and perhaps I should have snagged them at the time.
I made your point in another thread...regarding the VAS required and price tag. When you can get 2 or more top of the line 18s for the same or less money and use 'em in smaller enclosure(s), the 24 loses some of its cache despite the performance and cool factor of a single driver.

There is no perfect answer to bass bliss though. If I wanted to have the driver visible, 24 all the way! I would find a way to make it work! Man, that is one sweet piece of audio gear.

Hopefully, Ricci will get the 24 test data posted soon. That might help make the case for the 24 regardless of price.

Yea I have been reading about those Sundown Zv4 subs. Those look amazing! They have caught my attention and apparently are really close the the lms5400.

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post #5 of 31 Old Yesterday, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by cellarnoise View Post
If the sound of the ulx18 works, why not model two ftw-21s in 15 cf or two 7.5 cf. Makes the box size required for the 24 seem a bit large

The 24 driver size is cool though. For the extreme factor I would like a $1,000 something larger that fits in under 20 cf. Anyone?

It does and to be honest I want the smallest box size possible. I am not afraid to throw a lot power at some subs.

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post #6 of 31 Old Yesterday, 09:25 PM
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It does and to be honest I want the smallest box size possible. I am not afraid to throw a lot power at some subs.
zv4 18 model well in 3 cubic feet sealed per.
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post #7 of 31 Old Yesterday, 10:56 PM
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At a GTG the 24 was measured against two LMS 5400's and had as much output in real world material which would be more than the UXL's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
zv4 18 model well in 3 cubic feet sealed per.
HST-18's model better in slightly smaller enclosures than Zv4 18's for less money. FWIW, regular transfer function magnitude shows more real world performance vs. maximum SPL graphs that WinISD provides. From personal experience the "peak burst" figures make a lot of drivers look similar and can misconstrue actual experiences. During BEAST's GTG the HS-24:2xLMS-U 18" measurements demonstrated the latter. The numbers and sims don't make sense but those there at BEAST's GTG were able to hear and experience the difference.
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post #9 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
HST-18's model better in slightly smaller enclosures than Zv4 18's for less money. FWIW, regular transfer function magnitude shows more real world performance vs. maximum SPL graphs that WinISD provides. From personal experience the "peak burst" figures make a lot of drivers look similar and can misconstrue actual experiences. During BEAST's GTG the HS-24:2xLMS-U 18" measurements demonstrated the latter. The numbers and sims don't make sense but those there at BEAST's GTG were able to hear and experience the difference.
I guess anecdotal evidence from an event is a good sales tactic, but its been noted that the LMS were likely not properly setup and the enclosure sizes varied. But I digress, the LMS wasn't even mentioned. In the real world people are getting zv4s for $400ish. If you were selling the HST18 for that price it would be more attractive. Josh Ricci actually measured both of these and as you can imagine, they were nearly identical in burst and long term output, though the LMS bests them both in that category and distortion. I'm looking forward to seeing his test results for the HS24.

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post #10 of 31 Old Yesterday, 11:14 PM
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Stick some FTW 21's in 5 CF boxes and throw 3000 watts at them. Mark has them in stock.... I know because I got some more LOL
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post #11 of 31 Old Today, 03:23 AM
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btw, those weren't uxl's in the model, but another driver that I think is actually quite close to the one used in the s2, but that is a sidebar. we also discussed how xmax isn't a brick wall and usable spl frequently extends quite a bit beyond that, but it is different across drivers. my understanding is with respect to that, the si24 is pretty good. the 1500 watt power rating raises some questions though.

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The 24" is just cool. Cool factor wins. Plus it's slightly cheaper.

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post #13 of 31 Old Today, 06:19 AM
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The 24" is just cool. Cool factor wins. Plus it's slightly cheaper.
cheaper than what?
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post #14 of 31 Old Today, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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zv4 18 model well in 3 cubic feet sealed per.

This is what I am talking about! I can get four of these and still be 25% smaller than a 24" driver in 15 cubes depending on box style. If I went with the hs24, I would want to the box to be tall and close to something like @baniels is building.

What power did you model these with?

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post #15 of 31 Old Today, 06:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
btw, those weren't uxl's in the model, but another driver that I think is actually quite close to the one used in the s2, but that is a sidebar. we also discussed how xmax isn't a brick wall and usable spl frequently extends quite a bit beyond that, but it is different across drivers. my understanding is with respect to that, the si24 is pretty good. the 1500 watt power rating raises some questions though.
Oh ok. I assumed they were because that is what you did for me last time. Thanks for clearing that up.

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post #16 of 31 Old Today, 06:39 AM - Thread Starter
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Stick some FTW 21's in 5 CF boxes and throw 3000 watts at them. Mark has them in stock.... I know because I got some more LOL
Maybe. I will look into these as well.

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cheaper than what?
One 24" is cheaper than two UXL, It's also deeper. It's definetley cooler. That's my opinion.
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On the power rating thing, they will take more. They dumped a lot more into it at Brandon's house- but obviously Nick is only going to rate it conservatively for warranty reasons. I would not want to be replacing these huge drivers under warranty cause people abused them, or did something stupid so definitely understand all that.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
One 24" is cheaper than two UXL, It's also deeper. It's definetley cooler. That's my opinion.
last I checked, 1600 > 550 * 2

can you quantify deeper?

As for power handling, two voice coils will have the advantage...
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You can get the SI cheaper.
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One might speculate the 24 has similar power handling as the HST which IIRC is about 2500W on the long term test on data bass. In my view this power level is going to fry the driver long term (8 hours) based on the power compression sweeps.

That said real world usage is not as extreme thermally, particularly with movie usage. My view is that if one were going to hammer these for a concert you would want to stay at 750W max per driver for the HST and I believe the 24 should be similar.

For HT usage or short term usage you could put a lot more power into them, 3000W seems fine for "peaks" during a movie where the bass comes and goes and is not constant like music allowing the coil to cool down during the parts which have a lot of dialogue.

A very old rule of thumb about how much power to supply is the old 2x the RMS/AES rating which typically is a good bet for most content as long as someone knows what they are doing and avoids clipping the system.

As a side note, one should always look at the compression sweeps on data bass to better understand the power capabilities of a driver. In all honesty Nick is a smart guy, if one were to do some math and look at the maximal power sweep with relatively low compression (about 1db) for the HST then they would see it is the 63.3V sweep and that works out to about 750W, if you double it as is conventional wisdom considering the crest factor of most program material you arrive at 1500W which is its official power rating. Nick has done exactly what any sane manufacturer would do and speced the driver within a reasonable power limit that is actually quite logical and not understated.

In my view the 1500W rating is spot on if one wants to have a system that is safe and will last for a long time, not only that but the system will remain fairly linear.

In this light it is usually better to have 2 "lesser" drivers than one "super" driver from a performance standpoint.
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The OP says he prefers to use less enclosure space. Given the benefits to the FR gained with multiples and the fact that he could fit 2 FTWs in the same enclosure space as 1 HS24, I don't see how you beat that. Especially considering the displacement advantage you get.
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post #23 of 31 Old Today, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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I agree but Nate says put a FTW 21 in 5 cubes with 3k watts so technically I could fit three of them in the same size enclosure. I think that I would rather have 4 zv4's in 12 cubes. Just stack all four or move them around. I like those placement options too! A 15 cube box could only go in one spot in my theater.

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Originally Posted by Pain Infliction View Post
I agree but Nate says put a FTW 21 in 5 cubes with 3k watts so technically I could fit three of them in the same size enclosure. I think that I would rather have 4 zv4's in 12 cubes. Just stack all four or move them around. I like those placement options too! A 15 cube box could only go in one spot in my theater.
Well apparently SI has some special pricing if you know the secret handshake or something, so might want to see what you can get the HST18s for also. But having better placement options is nice. You might also want to consider putting them in dual opposed boxes if possible.
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I like the hst 18's too and they look better than the sundown with that ugly dustcap.

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The OP says he prefers to use less enclosure space. Given the benefits to the FR gained with multiples and the fact that he could fit 2 FTWs in the same enclosure space as 1 HS24, I don't see how you beat that. Especially considering the displacement advantage you get.
Exactly, that is my point. The 24 just doesn't make much sense despite the uber cool factor. I was going to use a pair in a huge enclosure behind my couch, that would have been the perfect setup for them. But, most people don't have that option/space.

As you mentioned, two 21s or even four 18s would be the better option with lower distortion, more power handling, higher output and maybe even some space savings not to mention the advantage of dual opposed enclosures.

Waiting patiently for Ricci's test results on the 24!

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post #27 of 31 Old Today, 01:20 PM - Thread Starter
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What test results are you waiting for? He has already tested the hs24 driver itself.

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What test results are you waiting for? He has already tested the hs24 driver itself.
We're waiting for the "system" results where he measures the driver in a box.
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Well apparently SI has some special pricing if you know the secret handshake or something, so might want to see what you can get the HST18s for also. But having better placement options is nice. You might also want to consider putting them in dual opposed boxes if possible.
He just had a nice sale on the HST recently.

Nick is a good guy, his products are great too. Call or email him tell him you are interested in showcasing his awesome drivers, I'm sure he will figure out a way to sell you some.

Check the B stock too. If you don't mind a glue drip or scratch or whatever you can save a few bucks. I'm super happy with mine.
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post #30 of 31 Old Today, 01:52 PM - Thread Starter
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We're waiting for the "system" results where he measures the driver in a box.
Ah, I see.

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He just had a nice sale on the HST recently.

Nick is a good guy, his products are great too. Call or email him tell him you are interested in showcasing his awesome drivers, I'm sure he will figure out a way to sell you some.

Check the B stock too. If you don't mind a glue drip or scratch or whatever you can save a few bucks. I'm super happy with mine.

You have the HST18? I didn't know that. What is your application?

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