HzHorn - AVS | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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HzHorn

I decided to model a horn that would fit in my room. (Because the LHorn and GHorn wouldn't.)

It needed to have several other features:
-Had to support vertical (primarily)
-As few cuts as possible. As simple as possible.
-Throat had allow for vertical corner placement, for gaining extra SPL!
-Driver had to be visible so that I could monitor excursion and so I could remove the driver without destroying the box.
-Had to have decent SPL, extension and linearity
-Had to be based on LMS-18

I call it the HzHorn.
It is 84x25x25
91db @ 18hz, -3db @ 15hz.

Useable up to ~50-80hz (depending on XO and EQ.)

Edit: Version 2.0!

Draft version of HzHorn (v2) in dark, GHorn light:









This is the biggest box I can support without compromising the soundstage!


I've never built a horn before. Did I get the settings correct or ?

Here is the SketchUp file:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwU...ew?usp=sharing
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post #2 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 07:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I wanted to start off with one; and maybe build two or four, one for each corner.

Could handle more power if you used a heavy 20hz HPF (48db/oct or something)... But who would do that???

If you used a HST-18 or UXL-18, you'd have to adjust the power and/or XO accordingly for XMECH limit.

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post #3 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 07:27 PM
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That's a big old box. But only a 4' square footprint. I likey. I know you have a name for it already, but if we're feeling Germanic, we can call it "Das Woofen Coffin."


One feature I do like is that you can actually service the driver. I've seen some horn builds that you seal up the driver inside...not a fan of that. Personal preference, of course.
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post #4 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 07:48 PM
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congratulations on taking a shot at a horn.


if only running one, set the "Ang" to 2.0 pi space, as that seems closest to what folks measure regardless of placement.


the length of the last leg is the distance from the driver to the mouth. in yours, the whole s4 to s5 par 62 row would be all zeroes.


i haven't checked the numbers for precision.

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post #5 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 07:50 PM
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and when you build it, lots of bracing along those panels is kind of required.
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post #6 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 07:56 PM - Thread Starter
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Corner-Loaded: (in-theory) 136db @ 2kW @ 14hz and only 15mm of excursion! Looks Brutal!
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post #7 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 08:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the length of the last leg is the distance from the driver to the mouth. in yours, the whole s4 to s5 par 62 row would be all zeroes.
I was thinking that the cement floor and two corner walls would become the mouth. So they would be tune-able and somewhat-decent sized.
I tried setting them to 0 or 1 but hornresp gave me issues.
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post #8 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

Could handle more power if you used a heavy 20hz HPF (48db/oct or something)... But who would do that???

If you used a HST-18 or UXL-18, you'd have to adjust the power and/or XO accordingly for XMECH limit.
That's crazy talk...I certainly don't...
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post #9 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 09:29 PM - Thread Starter
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-Fixed an error with the cut-out diameter.
-Also added absolute-minimum bracing.
Original Post updated with newest.

If I ever get around to making this I'd add lots more bracing, takes too long to model it all.

Here is what it looks like with a UXL-18 mounted on it. Motor hangs out a bit (as would the LMS's). But that's ok by me...


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post #10 of 137 Old 02-24-2015, 10:12 PM
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a little bit of bracing along the panel lengths will keep them from flapping.
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post #11 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 07:12 AM
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Looks like it owns 40hz on down. When will you know if sims equal reality?
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post #12 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 09:01 AM
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Just from looking at it what you have modeled is in no way representing the cabinet design. The driver loading and throat area is critical. You have an S2 of 299 which seems a bit small judging from the 25" cab width and a large constricting taper which then pinches way tight well after the driver. This is not represented in the sim at all. This pinch point would also cause severe air turbulence issues at war volume I'd imagine. Also you want way more bracing. Trust me you want to go overboard on that if anything. Those are big panels and they will vibrate badly. This ain't a little sealed cab. The forces involved are much higher.

Also simulate at 2.0 or 4.0. I always use 4.0 because it is anechoic and matches well with ground plane. 0.5 or 1/8th space is a best case car cabin type environment. Not related to a big HT at all.

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post #13 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is anehchoic sim:


and groundplane:
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post #14 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 10:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
Just from looking at it what you have modeled is in no way representing the cabinet design. The driver loading and throat area is critical. You have an S2 of 299 which seems a bit small judging from the 25" cab width and a large constricting taper which then pinches way tight well after the driver.
When I was playing around with the numbers S2 was the most critical, which is the tapered part right in front of the driver.
It seemed that as long as S1 wasn't more than double S1, then the results were smooth.

I had to sacrifice S4 completely, and the accuracy of S3 and L34 is questionable.



Originally I started off with the same parameters as the LHorn but smaller and that results in a horrible peak at 22hz with poor 15hz results.
S2 was too small, for the 25x25 width/depth.
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post #15 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 10:15 AM
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How will you take out the driver of needed? From the pics, it looks to be impossible from the angle of the top of the driver in the cab.
This is a cool build. It would be sweet to build these long ways right into the walls of a new build. That would look awesome.
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post #16 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 10:57 AM - Thread Starter
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If you extend the backplate and vent out the sides, the performance degrades significantly. (that and... the driver wouldn't fit.)
25hz resonance and 40hz null.



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post #17 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 11:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
How will you take out the driver of needed? From the pics, it looks to be impossible from the angle of the top of the driver in the cab.
This is a cool build. It would be sweet to build these long ways right into the walls of a new build. That would look awesome.
Comes out from this side: 19x22


On the 19 side you'll have a 1/4 of clearance on each side of the LMS-18, which is slightly bigger than the UXL-18.
Not sure if the LMS motor will fit in there, it's gonna be close on the one side of the magnet near the throat...

Might have to set the bracing back and maybe make the horn 0.5 to 1inch shorter. (Sim'ed it and that seems to have no impact on performance.)
I wouldn't know until it is being assembled.

The UXL-18 seems to fit nicely though.
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post #18 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 11:28 AM - Thread Starter
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Here is was happens when you change the mouth by 1inch in all directions.

You lose maybe 1db @ 15hz, but gain 1.5 db above that. That's worst-case...


It seems that 60hz performance improves quite a bit by doing that...actually; at the sacrifice of worse 80hz performance.
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post #19 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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You lower it in and then you tilt it.





From what I can tell, there doesn't seem to be any shortage of room to tilt it, there are several inches on both sides.
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post #20 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 11:58 AM
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If I get a chance I will show you what I mean. Your sims look fine but your cab design is not what you are simulating.

S2 is at the center of the radiating area/driver cone. You clearly have way more than 299cm^2 at the center of the driver. Your S3 is the tiny pinch point after the driver. This is probably something like 200cm just by eyeballing it. The length from S2 to the pinch at S3 would be more like 25cm or so. Then your expansion starts towards S4 which is the center of the backside of the radiating surface/driver. This L3 section would be nearly all of the horn length. Your S5 area/ horn mouth is clearly bigger than the 1900cm input. 19x22" is almost 2700cm. Also the final L4 section length is much shorter than the input value and is probably only 30cm or so. This is the distance from the driver cone center to the center of the mouth. Also the vtc and ATC are way off. They should be about 6850 and 1465 for an LMS back mounted on an 18mm baffle.

If you change all of this data to more correctly reflect the cab design as is you will see that it doesn't look so hot anymore.

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post #21 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 12:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
If I get a chance I will show you what I mean. Your sims look fine but your cab design is not what you are simulating.

S2 is at the center of the radiating area/driver cone. You clearly have way more than 299cm^2 at the center of the driver. Your S3 is the tiny pinch point after the driver. This is probably something like 200cm just by eyeballing it. The length from S2 to the pinch at S3 would be more like 25cm or so. Then your expansion starts towards S4 which is the center of the backside of the radiating surface/driver. This L3 section would be nearly all of the horn length. Your S5 area/ horn mouth is clearly bigger than the 1900cm input. 19x22" is almost 2700cm. Also the final L4 section length is much shorter than the input value and is probably only 30cm or so. This is the distance from the driver cone center to the center of the mouth. Also the vtc and ATC are way off. They should be about 6850 and 1465 for an LMS back mounted on an 18mm baffle.

If you change all of this data to more correctly reflect the cab design as is you will see that it doesn't look so hot anymore.
That would be great because I have no idea what the box would look like to get that sim, nor what the box that exists sims like. hehe

I wasn't sure which axis was meant by "cross-sectional area". So I assumed the horn longitudinal-plane axis was used. i.e. a height of 23.5inches and a depth of 5inches (if you include the baffle height), if you include the cone depth it might be a bit MORE.
I'd prefer to not have the driver angled, if it can be avoided at all... (Makes the cutting much simpler and bracing much stronger.)

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post #22 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 12:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
clearly bigger than the 1900cm input. 19x22" is almost 2700cm.
Oops, I forgot to multiply by the square of the conversion.
All my Sectional area calculations are 2.54 times too small. DOH!

Damn centimeters... I wish hornresp would use inches!

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post #23 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 12:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci View Post
S5 area/ horn mouth is clearly bigger
So this diagram, of which I based my calculations on is wrong. It doesn't even have an S5.
Based on what you are saying S4 is actually S5, right?


Is there an illustration somewhere that shows S1 through S5 and the L's laid out correctly?
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post #24 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 01:31 PM
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Yes what Ricci is saying is you have to add an additional flare to the horn simulation. For your horn S3 gets moved up to the right side of S2 and the driver on that drawing, S4 is now where S3 was, and S5 is where S4 was.
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post #25 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 02:11 PM - Thread Starter
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With the math corrections, it seems like I was getting this:



and then with the box re-adjusted based on correct values, I now get this: (Does this look correct?)



Old target (wrong math for box):


Above 18hz there is an improvement, and below 18hz it got slightly worse but still better than a GHorn.
Useable to 50hz now without EQ.



Now the magnet won't stick out of the box.
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post #26 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 02:41 PM
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Awesome project Hz!

It is also a great illustration of the tradeoffs with extension vs. output, etc. There is no free lunch as they say.

Fantastic! Another great alternative!

______________________________________________
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post #27 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 03:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I've updated the SketchUp file and HornResp Zip in the original post.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jpmst3 View Post
Awesome project Hz!

It is also a great illustration of the tradeoffs with extension vs. output, etc. There is no free lunch as they say.

Fantastic! Another great alternative!
I can only assume that it is that way because it is a 7 foot box.
Length helps it extend lower and width helps it extend louder higher up(?)

84x25x25
vs
74x25x30 for the LHorn.

If you have limited width and depth like me, but can go more vertically and can corner-load or side-load it, then this horn might just work reasonably-well for what it is...
Of course if you could make all the dimensions slightly larger then you could probably have the best of both worlds... it's almost impossible to make a horn too-big!

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post #28 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 03:19 PM - Thread Starter
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Good to 11hz with 150watts.


North of 120db above 14.3hz with 2kW groundplane (no room gain)
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post #29 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 03:27 PM
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How did I miss this thread?

<--- IN for awesome.



and subscribed for results.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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post #30 of 137 Old 02-25-2015, 03:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gpmbc View Post
Looks like it owns 40hz on down. When will you know if sims equal reality?
I was hoping to build one this summer if I can afford the wood.
I haven't figured out the cut-plan yet but it appears like it might fit on 4 or 5 sheets.

I actually screwed up one of the cuts on one of my sealed LMS-18's; it needs to be repaired, so it's a good opportunity to pull the driver out (and put it in a different box).

If I do this build then my kickbin re-vamp build will be postponed indefinitely.
To make this feasible I'd also have to postpone any further electronics upgrades that I had planned as well.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 02-25-2015 at 04:09 PM.
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