Interesting DIY rotary subwoofer project - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 299 Old 04-22-2015, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushi View Post
...just wanted to congratulate whoever thought to use the RC rotor system. It seems so obvious now (and pretty cheap)....
There were several aborted attempts documented in the forums three or four years ago, and I read somewhere that Thigpen's first prototype used RC rotor parts...

EDIT: Here's one from seven years ago. (pics near bottom of page)

http://www.hawthorneaudio.com/forums...1454&start=615

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post #62 of 299 Old 04-22-2015, 12:02 PM
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"Flatpacks" - probably not


but
I'm looking at understanding the "shopping list"


and, the good news for a DIY fan


some assembly required

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post #63 of 299 Old 04-22-2015, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'd presume there's at least one patent on the rotary sub that would prevent that from happening.
This is interesting to me. Say there was a patent... would it cover selling the parts to make the item, or the item in general being sold as a entire piece.

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post #64 of 299 Old 04-22-2015, 02:13 PM
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^ good question IDK


however the OP and his guide are thorough and engaging , to say the least


this would not be the first time (with this crowd) for several A-HA! moments of creative and thoughtful "divide and conquer reverse engineering" along with a bunch of "what if's?"


so maybe a budget for D: all of the above - $1K (?), just from the hip,
what does it take to get 3phase power in a standard household?
what if you live in an apartment or condo? (DOOMED!)
electric motors from Grainger, start at about $250-300+


any comment wrt the previously proposed DBX sub synthesizer input possibilities, it needs a signal wrt designed capacity/output and how it gets integrated with the remaining subs,
why build this thing if only depending on "maybe"?
Because this how DIY evolves . . .


what kind of amp can give the power to boost that ULF up to our hearing threshold?
are there other devices I just don't know about (?)
(probably)


a minidsp 2x4 (balanced)(?) seems a direct route . . will it get to 5-8 HZ? -usually around $125-ish

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post #65 of 299 Old 04-22-2015, 09:25 PM
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Speaking of... How much are we looking at for the total cost of this project @chris hudlin?
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post #66 of 299 Old 04-22-2015, 10:07 PM
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^
+1
I'm still on the hook for my second UXL from the current gb, that's about $400
and then to figure out how to integrate the 3 subs i'll have . . .


we need that ulf signal generator . . .

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post #67 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 02:04 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
sooooooooooooo . . .


glacially rushing right along


here is one choice (?)
<li class="productName">GP Motor, 3-Ph, TEFC, 1 HP, 3480 rpm, 56GP Motor,3-Ph,TEFC,1 HP,3480 rpm,56<li class="product-info">Item # 35JF92<li class="product-info">Mfr. Model # 00136ES3E56-Snow we know the motor isn't expected to run more than about 1800 rpm, that to me seems to a function of the VFD (NOT an electrician here)
is there a concern wrt heat build up if run at lower speed, hence the TEFC spec
is 1 hp adequate


then moving onto the sacrificial speaker
previously there are no specs, found by me, for the xplod,
is there a "preferred" Xmax , i.e. is 12-15mm good?
is more better
realizing that the excursion is translated into vane deflection/changes and that is dependent on the rate of change due to the geometry of the RC thingy


just trying to simplify this whole thing to clarify (understood by me) each components own "needs", function
and knowingly/hopefully optimize the build/results synergistically


looking for "dero zeffects"
yes, 1hp is adiquate and yes, the speed is controlled by the VFD

12-15mm is great. you dont want to overdrive the unit with too much xmax cause it will pull the rods from the rotor. and also, it only requires 300w of power (driver) to for it to work because it is so light, but i used a 1300w sub. you could use a stronger amplifier to reduce disortion, but its be pointless at <16Hz.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
^ good question IDK


however the OP and his guide are thorough and engaging , to say the least

this would not be the first time (with this crowd) for several A-HA! moments of creative and thoughtful "divide and conquer reverse engineering" along with a bunch of "what if's?"


so maybe a budget for D: all of the above - $1K (?), just from the hip,
what does it take to get 3phase power in a standard household?
what if you live in an apartment or condo? (DOOMED!)
electric motors from Grainger, start at about $250-300+


any comment wrt the previously proposed DBX sub synthesizer input possibilities, it needs a signal wrt designed capacity/output and how it gets integrated with the remaining subs,
why build this thing if only depending on "maybe"?
Because this how DIY evolves . . .


what kind of amp can give the power to boost that ULF up to our hearing threshold?
are there other devices I just don't know about (?)
(probably)


a minidsp 2x4 (balanced)(?) seems a direct route . . will it get to 5-8 HZ? -usually around $125-ish
you dont need a 3 phase input to your home, but if thats what you want to do it is very simple but will cost you a little.
the VFD i use to control my motor is single phase input and artificial 3phase output.

Quote:
Originally Posted by popalock View Post
Speaking of... How much are we looking at for the total cost of this project @chris hudlin?
$600-$900 for you, £250-£350 for me in the UK
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post #68 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris hudlin View Post
$600-$900 for you, £250-£350 for me in the UK
$600 = £400
$900 = £600

£250 = $375
£350 = $525

^Which is it? I only bring it up because that is quite a difference. Are there some other factors I'm missing that would effect the cost of the project?
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post #69 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 11:43 AM
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Either. It tells you on the guide how much it cost me. So base your figures around that. It was 300 quid for me
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post #70 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushi View Post
I would think motor speed should be almost entirely related to sound volume and have little effect on harmonic distortion.
If the motor slows down when loaded by the blade pitch changing, I'd think that would translate directly to distortion.

Dunno whether it's enough to matter; I'd imagine not.

If it does, putting a flywheel on the motor would help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
...is there a concern wrt heat build up if run at lower speed, hence the TEFC spec
is 1 hp adequate...
coupla things

I believe 1/2 speed gives 1/4 airflow

1/2 speed also gives 1/2 power at same torque

I'd search for a 1750 rpm motor on ebay, craigslist, or scrapyard

Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
what does it take to get 3phase power in a standard household?
*very* expensive; just get one of this http://dealerselectric.com/FM50-101-C.asp or this http://dealerselectric.com/JNEV-101-H1.asp

which also gives you the option to experiment with different speeds

Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
what kind of amp can give the power to boost that ULF up to our hearing threshold?
IIRC Thigpen said a couple hundred watts is adequate

the power amp is only used to modulate the blade pitch; the actual power is coming from the motor

analagous to the power required for power steering vs. that to move the car
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post #71 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 02:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chris hudlin View Post
physics geek reply...

the moving mass isnt the issue, it is the resistance form the air dependent on the angle of the blade. when the blades are moving, they move relatively quick and the volume of air is enough to slow it down a few rpm, damaging the feeling/hearing experience. if the motor is strong, it will stay at that set rpm. m,y 3phase half horsepower motor drops 0.2-4 of a hz when in use. (the VFD has a live display showing me what the speed [hz] is set to and what is doing)...
Running the motor at a higher speed and gearing it down via a belt drive would help a lot in regards to speed fluctuation under load.
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post #72 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 04:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Running the motor at a higher speed and gearing it down via a belt drive would help a lot in regards to speed fluctuation under load.
You can also add a flywheel to increase the rotating mass. More mass attached to the motor shaft will act to keep the RPM consistent under varying load.
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post #73 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 06:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz View Post
...putting a flywheel on the motor would help...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Boden View Post
You can also add a flywheel...
Yes
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post #74 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 06:31 PM - Thread Starter
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I am thrilled reading all of these discussion points! It will be amazing to see some of these start to pop up as a finished product!

Would there be any benefit to a stiffer fan blade material that could be welded to the swashplate? Eliminate a source of failure/vibration/rattling?
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post #75 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 07:27 PM
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so
perhaps a machined/fitted flywheel would make for consistent rpm and change response, the inertia,
as opposed to the extra configuration wrt to pulleys
or a flywheel will make the pulley setup power curve more consistent and smoother < this (?)

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post #76 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 08:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
so
perhaps a machined/fitted flywheel would make for consistent rpm and change response, the inertia,
as opposed to the extra configuration wrt to pulleys
or a flywheel will make the pulley setup power curve more consistent and smoother < this (?)
Direct drive is simpler, less things to break/malfunction. One can probably skip the flywheel as well, and just go with a beefy motor. I would check into what Thigpen used. Might even be that his fan hub acts as a flywheel.

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post #77 of 299 Old 04-23-2015, 09:27 PM
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^
makes sense, beefier probably more cost and time effective compared to the extra engineering wrt alignment of pulleys, machined and balanced flywheel,
definitely ambitious DIY wrt to the OP's approach, doesn't need the "overthink"

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post #78 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 05:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bushi View Post
The only concern I have is whether the system is a linear translation of woofer displacement to rotor angle.
Just thinking out loud here... Do we know that linear translation of driver displacement to rotor pitch is what we want? We could calculate an ideal of course, but it's not obvious to me that a linear translation is what's needed. I'd think some aerodynamic efficiencies will come into play.

Regardless of the what the ideal rotor pitch response is, it surely won't end up being what's wanted in room. Just like any other subwoofer system, equalization will be needed to tailor the response. So it seems to me that as long as there's a continuous function relating driver displacement to rotor pitch, we need not aim for linear.

Last edited by pitviper33; 04-24-2015 at 05:04 AM. Reason: edit: I typed this response a day ago. I came back to my computer this morning to see that I hadn't clicked "reply".
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post #79 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 11:34 AM
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You could readily verify that by measuring the device at different SPL levels and seeing if the result is sufficiently linear. You could possibly even correct it via dynamic EQ. Could be rather simple to deal with.
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post #80 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 12:15 PM
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a tone generator and a way to measure SPL
square wave or sine
and then a graph


cuts the FUD

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post #81 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 12:17 PM
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http://www.audiocheck.net/audiofrequ...ator_index.php

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU/SHARP 80" LED/LCD
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www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
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Inquiring minds want to know!

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post #83 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 12:53 PM
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thanks to noah katz for the dealerselectric link (doing my homework)
looks like a motor and VFD for around or under $250


blades assembly <50 ish


amp should have NO HPF internally designed (thinking re: a PE BASH 300)


blades material as posted, steel etc makes that 500-600 bracket seem "reasonable"


not dauntingly economically unfeasible considering all else that many here have spent, including me . . .


but i'd like to hear more about the (un)-necessity (?) of the inclusion of the DBX bass synth/minidsp units (or alternatives)


where is my 7-8 + HZ signal coming from?


what if I put 4 crowsons and an amp under my floor, can I get something resembling 3.0-3.5 Richter Scale?

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post #84 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 01:03 PM
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enlarge Level 3 Motion System:
Four Shadow-8 Actuators with a D-501 Amplifier

Premier system designed for multiple individual chairs or a row of 3 or 4 seats with shared armrests. Powered by the D-501 Amplifier.
Price: $ 2,498.00


Frequency response: 5 to 160Hz


just sayin'

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post #85 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 01:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
... machined and balanced flywheel...
just get a used large diameter pulley off ebay; if from a reputable mfgr it will prebalanced; look for holes (blind, not through) in the rim

Quote:
Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
but i'd like to hear more about the (un)-necessity (?) of the inclusion of the DBX bass synth/minidsp units (or alternatives)

where is my 7-8 + HZ signal coming from?


what if I put 4 crowsons and an amp under my floor, can I get something resembling 3.0-3.5 Richter Scale?
That's a good question to ask; source material with anything that low is very rare.

Perhaps the better reason for a fan sub is to cover the range up to 20 Hz, which gives a huge reduction in the size and power requirements of the conventional subs used to cover up to 80 Hz (or wherever).

Oh wait, you need a huge volume for the fan sub...
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post #86 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 01:52 PM
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So
a majority of bassheads here have the 15 hz +/awesome SPL rangs well in hand,
but
if a new enthusiast were starting out building a HT from scratch in a dedicated room . . .


a pair of these would be a good start


after looking at cost/benefit ratio, without some method to get a usable signal to retrofit /integrate with existing subs


why?


for $3K+ I can get 2 of the new mini room correction gizmo's,, maybe an Outlaw 7 channel amp , re-do my whole 7.3.4 ATMOS set up and bliss out
but
the rabbit hole beckons . . .
so what about the bass synth/minidsp combo
the real engineers here know WAY more than me (surface skimmer)
please speak up

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU/SHARP 80" LED/LCD
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x Inuke6000DSP
www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #87 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 03:30 PM
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THKTFC HGCQMZ QX MEDMYQC. QIMF'HH QMHH FXR KITQ
ALWAYS LISTEN TO EXPERTS THEY LL TELL YOU WHAT
WTZ'Q AM OXZM TZO KIF. QIMZ OX GQ.
CAN T BE DONE AND WHY THEN DO IT
- YXAMYQ IMGZHMGZ


Always listen to experts, they'll tell you what can't be done and why.
Then go do it.
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ROBERT HEINLEIN

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU/SHARP 80" LED/LCD
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x Inuke6000DSP
www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #88 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 04:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Anyone with patent experience in all of these posts? I came across US patent #8,804,986 with some relevant linked historical patents.

Would any of this prevent someone from assemblind all necessary parts into a single order package?
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post #89 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 05:10 PM - Thread Starter
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Thigpen has a handful of audio patents, but none in relation to airfoil generated transduction
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post #90 of 299 Old 04-24-2015, 06:05 PM
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can we get ANY data, charts, graphs, anything? from . . . anybody? . . .anywhere?


how about the builder, he can't be sitting around waiting for someone to create for this thing


something this awesome could not have been built once right the first time, without testing and a few "oop-sies"
where did they get the testing material from, what criteria, and where ,yadda, yadda ,yadda
and then someone saying "what if?" probably a bunch


building from the reverse engineering shown is real (I had a damn dream about this thing, woke me right up at 2 am this morning)
I can visual this, plenty of minor parts, steel plate, the power,


making it relevant/useful/integrated is getting to be another challenge . . .

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU/SHARP 80" LED/LCD
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x Inuke6000DSP
www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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