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post #31 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 12:51 PM
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A little off topic, but is there an equivalent crown model (basically same guts and SQ) as the xls series but without the dsp? Would that be the xli?
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post #32 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 12:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Did you check out the Xti or DSi ?
Last time I checked the DSi amps were way too spendy, and the lack of XLR and Speakon plugs is a real turn off.

Xti are priced right, but no RCA with .775v input. On my preamp, I'm using the XLR outs to the Mini for the MBMs, and the RCA outs don't have enough voltage.
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post #33 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
These amps have traditionally been poor sub amps and great full range amps. Why all this focus on sub amps?

Sub amps = Lab or Powersoft.

If you are poor you buy Peavy IRP7500, Clones, or ipuke's. (my style)

I love crown. But they are not subwoofer amps.

Cheap amps are cheap because the good stuff got left out. One of the things that got left out with the Crown to make them sound so awesome relative to a low price point is the subsonic capability. Run it 20hz+ you won't have much issue. But who puts an XLS 1000/1500/2500/3500 on a subwoofer????

I would never do that.
Well, I put them on a sub. Admittedly I was unaware of sub 20Hz rolloff when I purchased the first one. Additionally they are being used for HT18s in a sealed box so sub sonic performance isn't a huge factor at this point. As funds become available i'll probably upgrade to something better and move these to my mains. Currently they give me good performance so I can't complain. I am excited for the new features though like .775 input voltage and 12v triggering. Perhaps I should sell my current amps before their value tanks and use the money to get one of the other amps you mentioned.
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post #34 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 01:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I just checked with Crown on the sub 20hz rolloff thing, same as first gen amps.

By return I asked what of their amps would be most suitable for subwoofer duties, they advise:

An amp without any form of DSP in it, the XLi and CTs. Still with both of these amps at some point below 20Hz you will trigger the DC/LF circuit. That is typically below 10Hz for that to be triggered.
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post #35 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 04:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
I've been looking for something to run my active BMS coax's with since the MiniDSP has a high noise floor. If these have a better DSP and then gen1 this might be it!

the dcx2496 should do the trick. if you want something a little more modern looking mastermaybe mentioned the dbx pa2 a while ago. only two channels, but for $300 if you call around, that's not too bad. i didn't find any faults, but i only gave it a quick read. one of the xilica has fir filtering if that is important to you.

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post #36 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 04:45 PM
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At least they are black.
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post #37 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 04:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
But who puts an XLS 1000/1500/2500/3500 on a subwoofer????

I would never do that.
I did, because I wanted a silent amp and didn't want to cough up almost 3x the dough for a SpeakerPower amp.
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post #38 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
I just checked with Crown on the sub 20hz rolloff thing, same as first gen amps.
The amps don't really roll off below 20Hz. They just don't like to drive low impedance loads below 16Hz or so.

Last edited by Stereodude; 04-30-2015 at 05:06 PM.
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post #39 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 05:24 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
The amps don't really roll off below 20Hz. They just don't like to drive low impedance loads below 16Hz or so.
When I asked Crown about that before here was their reply (question asked was if there was indeed a roll off implemented and whether 12 or 24 dB/octave as both had been reported in various threads:

It’s a 12dB per/oct roll off. It’s not fully flat to 20Hz, roll off will start a little bit above 20Hz. The crossover points you can select are Linkwitz-Riley 24dB per/oct roll offs but the roll off at 20Hz is 12dB. So the amp technically has both and may have mixed to two up.
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post #40 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 05:26 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I did, because I wanted a silent amp and didn't want to cough up almost 3x the dough for a SpeakerPower amp.
Yep, powering both my diy subs with an XLS1500 or two too, already owned them. Someday I'd like to have a SpeakerPower amp, but damn they're pricey.
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post #41 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 05:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lovinthehd View Post
When I asked Crown about that before here was their reply (question asked was if there was indeed a roll off implemented and whether 12 or 24 dB/octave as both had been reported in various threads:

It’s a 12dB per/oct roll off. It’s not fully flat to 20Hz, roll off will start a little bit above 20Hz. The crossover points you can select are Linkwitz-Riley 24dB per/oct roll offs but the roll off at 20Hz is 12dB. So the amp technically has both and may have mixed to two up.
I'd have to measure them again since it's been a while, but I don't recall that being the case. The output voltage did not decrease in such a way that would indicate anything like that. Had that been the case I wouldn't have needed to put a HPF at 15Hz ahead of mine to stop the LF protection.
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post #42 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 05:45 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Stereodude View Post
I'd have to measure them again since it's been a while, but I don't recall that being the case. The output voltage did not decrease in such a way that would indicate anything like that. Had that been the case I wouldn't have needed to put a HPF at 15Hz ahead of mine to stop the LF protection.
I'd think many of us would love to see such measurements! Please? I'm going off what Crown said to me via email....but I've also seen other comments from people who seem surprised as they are getting response below 20hz beyond the supposed roll off....
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post #43 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 06:16 PM
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I have 3 gen 1 XLS 1500's for sale. They have about 2 hours max on them. lol. Not becuase of these coming out but because I just bought 3 Crown DSI's for my JBL's.
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post #44 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 07:44 PM
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I don't understand why these would be unsuitable for subs, gen 1 or 2... Except for the roll off if using sealed. But that seems like a separate issue ULF seekers need to consider separately. Every sub user needs to consider things like DSP, inputs, outputs, power, input sens, etc and the XLS seems like just as useful as any other pro amp. It even has RCA.
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post #45 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
I don't understand why these would be unsuitable for subs, gen 1 or 2... Except for the roll off if using sealed. But that seems like a separate issue ULF seekers need to consider separately. Every sub user needs to consider things like DSP, inputs, outputs, power, input sens, etc and the XLS seems like just as useful as any other pro amp. It even has RCA.
I actually recommended a buddy of mine get the XLS2500 for a dual-sealed SI HT18 sub I built him just because of sub 20hz roll-off. He wasn't going to have any DSP in place to add a HPF to limit excursion, so the sub 20hz roll-off was perfect.

No XO and still no worries of over-excursion way down low.
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post #46 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 10:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by auburnu008 View Post
I have 3 gen 1 XLS 1500's for sale. They have about 2 hours max on them. lol. Not becuase of these coming out but because I just bought 3 Crown DSI's for my JBL's.
Looks like someone will be running some JBL's active! Sweeeeeeeet.

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post #47 of 408 Old 04-30-2015, 10:39 PM
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I just received three xls-2000s for sub duty so it is only natural the next generation was released a week later. I was planning on modifying my amplifiers to have a trigger input but it seems this new unit will be the way to go. Luckily I am still in the return window through amazon so these will be headed back and I will wait for the new units to be released.

The black color and ability to kill the front LEDs is nice too.
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post #48 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 01:37 AM
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What's the advantage of 0.775V input? Better gain matching with minidsp?

which is the better setting to gain match with minidsp?
crown 0.775v - minidsp 0.9v ; or
crown 1.4v - minidsp 2.0v
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post #49 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 04:36 AM
 
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Balanced minidsp with more output IMO because it works with more "pro" amps and allows you upgrade path that's wide open.
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post #50 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 06:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skylinestar View Post
What's the advantage of 0.775V input? Better gain matching with minidsp?

which is the better setting to gain match with minidsp?
crown 0.775v - minidsp 0.9v ; or
crown 1.4v - minidsp 2.0v
The fact that you can drive the amp to full power(unBalanced MiniDSP can be used). Otherwise their equal as long as the s/n ratio is the same. I thought I read that the .775v setting increases s/n to 103db. Anyway these were all but purchased until I saw that they rolloff under 20hz. Totally unacceptable for me. Otherwise this is may have been the perfect amp. Oh well.
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post #51 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 06:54 AM
 
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I like balanced interconnects more than unbalanced- so that's a consideration.

But you are almost always best matching up everything the same if you can.

Meaning Balanced to Balanced- or unbalanced to unbalanced. They just play nicer.

I'm not sure if a balanced miniDSP can take an unbalanced signal and spit it out at a higher power? (without more hiss or noise).
I never tried it. But if you can, than RCA into miniDSP and balanced out of miniDSP would be a good option.
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post #52 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
I'm not sure if a balanced miniDSP can take an unbalanced signal and spit it out at a higher power? (without more hiss or noise).
By default the balanced 2x4 unit outputs the same voltage on the balanced output as it gets on the unbalanced input. The unbalanced output (on the balanced unit) is 1/2 the unbalanced input or a drop of about 6dB.
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post #53 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 08:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
how about the Crown actually sounds good full range?

I'd start with that.
I should have clarified for sub use only.

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post #54 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 08:57 AM
 
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I should have clarified for sub use only.
Just the wrong line of amps for subwoofers IMO.
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post #55 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 09:10 AM
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Just the wrong line of amps for subwoofers IMO.
Unless you actually want that roll-off below 20hz like I did for my buddies sub.
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post #56 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 09:29 AM
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does anybody have a link to a measurement of the output for the xls amps?

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post #57 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 09:38 AM
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lukeamdman measured the gjallarhorn with the fp14k, the cc5500, then the xls 2500.


the ripple around the impedance peak in the gjallarhorn at 23hz not withstanding, it looks like the "rolloff" of the xls 2500 is perhaps 1db more than the other two amps by 10hz. in this measurement, there is no evidence of a 2nd order high pass filter at 20hz.


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post #58 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 10:00 AM
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to all the naysayers.
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post #59 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 10:23 AM
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subyguy posted a comparison of the xls1500 and the ipr7500
IPR7500 vs Crown XLS1500 - Graphed


this one shows subwoofer response using the xls1500 (red line) and the ipr7500 (orange line) with the same eq. the black line is my addition that level matches the two at 25hz.
the xls1500 appears to start rolling off around 11hz and the ipr7500 around 9hz.


i am not sure of the native response of the ipr7500, so that is a wildcard in this measurement.


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post #60 of 408 Old 05-01-2015, 11:12 AM
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Even if the xls line has roll off below 20 Hz it still perfectly plausible to have 10 or 15Hz in room playback if you factor in room gain and perhaps external EQ below 20Hz. Is there no measurements of the actual output of the amp? - Maybe the roll off is gentle at 6 or 12 db/oct?

EDIT: You know, its not that hard getting a reading directly off of the amp. The roll off, if its there, can be measured with at simple digital volt meter and test tones. - Just remember to disable EQ. Just measured the headphone out of mu laptop with REWs tone generator and a multimeter set to AC volts. You could easily do the same on a power amp. Its plenty good enough to get a feeling for the amp behavior.

For instance my laptop headphone output measures ruler flat with no high pass filter in Jriver from 10 to 50 Hz (0.32V). With a 20Hz, 12db/oct, 10Hz only measures 0.068V as opposed to 0.32V with no high pass. With a 20Hz, 6db/oct high pass, 10Hz measures 0.14V as opposed to 0.32V.

Hope this is useful.
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Last edited by splotten; 05-01-2015 at 12:42 PM.
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