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post #1 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 02:34 PM - Thread Starter
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WinISD Setup and Accuracy

When I first started using this when It was released I was very frustrated with it. Then later when building my own database or using ones available online I became more frustrated. I would make 4 models of the same driver and even with appeared to be the same parameters that came from different sources and would come up with 4 different solutions and box sizes. It makes it useless IMO. Errors after errors when inputting the data which led to data compromising to clear them. When I researched this years ago i found the cause was incorrect inputting and averaging errors, basically operator error(that means us) because of one simple reason, we didn't read the manual.

Anyway, since its probably been a half decade or more I thought I'd mention this here. You must input your own data thats as accurate as possible. This means from a neutral source that measures all driver with the same testbed. DataBass. Then once we have Josh's data we need to load it properly. In WinISD you need to name and build your own driver database from scratch by entering the parameters in this specific order and only these. Enter SD,RE,LE,FS,QES,VAS,QMS,XMAX,PE. Then save. Thats it. No error message popups, no crazy modeling errors.
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post #2 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 02:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's the Parameters in order above.
HS24D2 = .20/3.38/3.3/18.1/.54/647.5L/13.8/36/1500.
HT18D2 = .1150/3.5/3.86/15/.33/465L/2.88/23.5/600.

Pay attention to the letter or number next to the specific box as that has to be right, for example you don't want xmax in M=meter but mm=millimeters.
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post #3 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 02:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
When I first started using this when It was released I was very frustrated with it. Then later when building my own database or using ones available online I became more frustrated. I would make 4 models of the same driver and even with appeared to be the same parameters that came from different sources and would come up with 4 different solutions and box sizes. It makes it useless IMO. Errors after errors when inputting the data which led to data compromising to clear them. When I researched this years ago i found the cause was incorrect inputting and averaging errors, basically operator error(that means us) because of one simple reason, we didn't read the manual.

Anyway, since its probably been a half decade or more I thought I'd mention this here. You must input your own data thats as accurate as possible. This means from a neutral source that measures all driver with the same testbed. DataBass. Then once we have Josh's data we need to load it properly. In WinISD you need to name and build your own driver database from scratch by entering the parameters in this specific order and only these. Enter SD,RE,LE,FS,QES,VAS,QMS,XMAX,PE. Then save. Thats it. No error message popups, no crazy modeling errors.

And then there's this (from WinISD Help menu):

Quote:
1. Enter Mms and Cms

This gives fs. If either is not available, then enter fs and other parameter.

2. Enter Sd, Bl and Re

Now, you should get all but Qms (and Qts), Vas. Please note that Vas may not match exactly what is specified by manufacturer, because exact value of Vas depends on environmental parameters. See FAQ.

3. Enter Rms or Qms.

Either one will do, although I tend to prefer Qms over Rms, because it can usually be measured in driver measurement procedures.

4. Enter Hc, Hg and Pe.

If Hc or Hg or either is available, then enter Xmax and optionally either Hc or Hg if available.

5. Enter number of voicecoils.

This procedure is most accurate. Also note that it also calculates true SPL (1W/1m) value. So it might not match the marketing SPL value, which is generally somewhat vague. Not in all cases, though.

6. Correct Znom, if necessary.

If there are several voicecoils, then you must be careful when entering parameters in that case, because many manufacturers give Bl in voice coils in series, because it yields double value for Bl against parallel connection. If driver manufacturer gives Qes, Bl and Cms or Mms, then you can check how Bl is specified. For that, you can enter following parameters to calculate Re: Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Bl. Connection mode can be changed by changing the combobox selection. The driver editor then converts Bl and Re values accordingly.


Equivalently, you can check for Bl by entering
Qes, Fs, Mms or Cms and Re (for desired connection mode).
If you enter resistance for parallel connection and get about half of advertised Bl, then you know, that Bl was specified that way.




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post #4 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 02:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
You must input your own data thats as accurate as possible. This means from a neutral source that measures all driver with the same testbed. DataBass. Then once we have Josh's data we need to load it properly. In WinISD you need to name and build your own driver database from scratch by entering the parameters in this specific order and only these. Enter SD,RE,LE,FS,QES,VAS,QMS,XMAX,PE. Then save. Thats it. No error message popups, no crazy modeling errors.
The need to not input too much data has been well known for years. The issue isn't data accuracy, it's that WinISD auto calculates the data to at least one more decimal point than most manufacturers do. When the calculated result calculated to three decimal points, for instance, doesn't agree with manufacturers calculated to only two decimal points you get error codes. Entering the least amount of data possible and letting the program calculate the rest ends that problem.
You also have to be very careful to use the same values as the screen is showing. For instance, many the user has entered cubic feet for Vas when liters were called for, leading to some very unusual results. If I have a complaint it's that the screen for data entry is way too small to be able to see well.
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post #5 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 03:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
The need to not input too much data has been well known for years. The issue isn't data accuracy, it's that WinISD auto calculates the data to at least one more decimal point than most manufacturers do. When the calculated result calculated to three decimal points, for instance, doesn't agree with manufacturers calculated to only two decimal points you get error codes. Entering the least amount of data possible and letting the program calculate the rest ends that problem.
You also have to be very careful to use the same values as the screen is showing. For instance, many the user has entered cubic feet for Vas when liters were called for, leading to some very unusual results. If I have a complaint it's that the screen for data entry is way too small to be able to see well.
Exactly. By imputing as I mentioned above you won't have any errors and this auto fillin works. Using the method outlined in the help section of winisd has obvious issue and errors out in my experience.
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post #6 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 04:13 PM
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Also part of the help section:


Quote:
Important note for 0.50a7 and above:
The driver editor won't accept erraneous entries anymore. Your data must be perfect (i.e. not over-defined by entering "too much" parameters), for you to be able to save it. If you try to enter too many of them, editor will display an error dialog when you try to save the data.

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post #7 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 04:24 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Fitzmaurice View Post
The need to not input too much data has been well known for years. The issue isn't data accuracy, it's that WinISD auto calculates the data to at least one more decimal point than most manufacturers do. When the calculated result calculated to three decimal points, for instance, doesn't agree with manufacturers calculated to only two decimal points you get error codes. Entering the least amount of data possible and letting the program calculate the rest ends that problem.
You also have to be very careful to use the same values as the screen is showing. For instance, many the user has entered cubic feet for Vas when liters were called for, leading to some very unusual results. If I have a complaint it's that the screen for data entry is way too small to be able to see well.
I agree with you there Bill. As I get older they purposely blur the image more and more
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post #8 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Augerhandle View Post
Also part of the help section:
Thats good to know they addressed that as it caused a lot of inconsistency.
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post #9 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 05:05 PM
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Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
I agree with you there Bill. As I get older they purposely blur the image more and more
I blame it on these companies trying to be cheap with the eInk, by using smaller type, to save a few eCents here and there... vs. back in the day, when they used larger type, easier to read... ummm... yeah.... that's the real problem... cheap bastards....
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post #10 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 05:07 PM
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I've been using winISD for close to 15 years and never had any serious complaints.

What kind of inconsistency have you seen? If your different parameter sets are showing 1 dB differences, that's to be expected. The parameters for a given model driver will vary unit to unit and even over time for a given driver. The different sources of parameters for a sub may not be doing anything wrong when they measure - they may just have slightly different drivers.

At the end of the day, if you build and it's within a couple dB of the model that's about as good as you can expect anyway. IMO winISD is a good tool for making basic design decisions.
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post #11 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 06:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rybaudio View Post
I've been using winISD for close to 15 years and never had any serious complaints.

What kind of inconsistency have you seen? If your different parameter sets are showing 1 dB differences, that's to be expected. The parameters for a given model driver will vary unit to unit and even over time for a given driver. The different sources of parameters for a sub may not be doing anything wrong when they measure - they may just have slightly different drivers.

At the end of the day, if you build and it's within a couple dB of the model that's about as good as you can expect anyway. IMO winISD is a good tool for making basic design decisions.
Its very good at modeling. The inconsistencies are from downloading drivers from many different sources. and websites over the last decade. I have 4 different files of a Dayton rs15hf and none match. Thats at least part of the reason Person A says this driver equals 5x this driver and Person B says no I'm showing 7x. Then we throw are hands up and say the program is at issue. Just because the program takes the numbers and doesn't error out doesn't mean you won't get different readings. My method I outlined above comes straight from the WinISD peeps and works with all version. It needs to be done in that order with only those parameters mentioned. All the other params will be populated correctly and accurately. Now granted assembly QC issues and even the age of driver will contribute to a different measured parameters then stated by the Manufacturer. Ricci stated that very thing when testing the HT18D2 when he mentioned it looked like It had been beat on aka well broken in at the time measurements were taken. Granted that will have an effect on the end result but we should be able to make equal comparisons and if the data inputted isn't right, it can put a damper in constructive discussion here. I have no problem at all with the model no perfectly matching real world performance, but if were here having a heating discussion over this and both are numbers are wrong and Winisd is telling you and me two different results over bad data, then thats a problem. For instance I modeled the the above mentioned Dayton and the cab sizes were all over the place. Not one of the four matched even though some of the parameters matched perfectly. In the case of the HT18 it modeled a .707 cab at 6.4cuft. I was questioning Ricci's reasoning on using a 4.2cuft. Guess what, using his numbers it specs out at 4.46cuft. While I do want and hope that real world vs sim matches or is close, whats more important is our discussion being on a level playing field. Only then can the discussion be productive. A lot of the drivers in Winisd aren't even around anymore. Others I got a decade ago. I'm sure test gear and software has come lightyears from then. I vote for a new database being assembled around Ricci's measurements then using that as a starting point. And they must be input exactly as outline and only those used. No bl mms or any other params are needed. Those will populate correctly.
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post #12 of 21 Old 05-18-2015, 07:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's how it should look when/after inputing the parameters.



Dayton UM18-22 vs SI HT18D2

Here we have each sub@1w with the HT18 having a 1db advantage.



Here we have the Max SPL with the Dayton slightly ahead. Almost exactly matching Data-Bass real world testing.

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post #13 of 21 Old 05-19-2015, 12:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coolrda View Post
Here's how it should look when/after inputing the parameters.
That's the old version of WinISD. Why aren't you using the new one?
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post #14 of 21 Old 05-19-2015, 08:18 AM
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That's the old version of WinISD. Why aren't you using the new one?
The new one doesn't have the box suggestion option.. I'm using 0.44..
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post #15 of 21 Old 05-19-2015, 08:22 AM
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Cool thread @coolrda . Nice job. I had the same issues as you, and it was also explained to me the exact same thing. This thread should help people.
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post #16 of 21 Old 05-19-2015, 09:38 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool thread @coolrda . Nice job. I had the same issues as you, and it was also explained to me the exact same thing. This thread should help people.
Thank you.
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post #17 of 21 Old 05-19-2015, 09:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Vengeance187 View Post
That's the old version of WinISD. Why aren't you using the new one?
Not a windows guy anymore. This mini netbook is my last windows. I only keep it because of my home theater test gear like my colorimeter and omnimic runs on it. So I'm comfortable with it and actually prefer the old look.
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post #18 of 21 Old 05-21-2015, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
The new one doesn't have the box suggestion option.. I'm using 0.44..
I don't know what that is since I haven't used that version, but the new version starts you off with the recommended box size and tuning after you pick your driver and box type.
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Cool thread @coolrda. Nice job. I had the same issues as you, and it was also explained to me the exact same thing. This thread should help people.
I'm a newbie and I've never had that problem because I read this first. It's in the DIY FAQ at the top of this forum.
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post #19 of 21 Old 05-21-2015, 07:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Vengeance187 View Post
I don't know what that is since I haven't used that version, but the new version starts you off with the recommended box size and tuning after you pick your driver and box type.
Do you have any screen shots of some examples ? i really don't want to install it and it not work again.. I use a mac and run my window's in vm's for light apps like these..

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post #20 of 21 Old 05-21-2015, 07:46 AM
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As a complete newb, even without any measuring equipment yet - is there much of a tested track record where a measured driver (i.e. data-bass) specs are entered, a ported closure is built per WinISD model, then actual performance is measured again vs what was modeled?
I understand every room impacts gain and nulls, but taking the room out of the equation - how close or far off is modeled vs actual?

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post #21 of 21 Old 05-21-2015, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
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taking the room out of the equation - how close or far off is modeled vs actual?
I've always found WinISD to be quite accurate. That's after designing, building and measuring a few hundred speakers.
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