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Old 05-20-2015, 08:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Building from scratch. NO KIT

Well, adventuring off of kits and building my self a pair of 2 way speakers with my own choice of drivers ( with in my specs ).

I went with a PP103 10" Efficient driver & Fountek NeoCD3.5 Ribbon Tweeter. Both drivers are 95.6DB efficient.

Drivers, 10"





Ribbon,




WinISD box,



The goal is to build a pair of speakers that are efficient, and clean sound with 4 class a amps.

I will be using a MiniDSP 2x4 for the crossover.

I don't have the wood working tool's, so im leaving the box building to a cabinet making friend of mine

Class A amplifiers & efficient speakers is what I run & DIY :)
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Old 05-20-2015, 08:54 AM
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Old 05-20-2015, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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do you have a measurement mic?
I sure do ( it's my dad's ) but i'm more than welcome to use it. He has the Dayton software with his, i'm not sure what it's called.
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:05 AM
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Omnimic? That will work. Otherwise MiniDSP makes a good mic called the UMIK that is USB and works well.

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"Too much is almost enough. Anything in life worth doing is worth overdoing. Moderation is for cowards."
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Old 05-20-2015, 11:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Omnimic? That will work. Otherwise MiniDSP makes a good mic called the UMIK that is USB and works well.
Thanks, i can give them all a shot, I think dad has Omnimic, that sounds familiar

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Old 05-20-2015, 12:12 PM
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Neo 3.5 has a recommended cut off of 2k5/3rd order. This isn't likely to end happily.
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Old 05-20-2015, 12:23 PM
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Neo 3.5 has a recommended cut off of 2k5/3rd order. This isn't likely to end happily.
And IIRC, it should be crossed even higher.
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Old 05-20-2015, 12:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Neo 3.5 has a recommended cut off of 2k5/3rd order. This isn't likely to end happily.
why would you say that ? Got a better suggestion for a Ribbon tweeter ? Or waveguide & compression driver.

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Old 05-20-2015, 12:29 PM - Thread Starter
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And IIRC, it should be crossed even higher.
well the 10" drivers go from 50-5500 If the neo's say over at 3k i should be good.. ? yes ?

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Old 05-20-2015, 12:37 PM
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well the 10" drivers go from 50-5500 If the neo's say over at 3k i should be good.. ? yes ?
You want to cross the woofer at the area it blends best with the tweeter - this means the off axis response, and also the total frequency response.

You'd consider distortion and cone break up, as well at the woofer beaming and the dispersion pattern of your top end in making the judgement. You would not cross a woofer at it's maximum rated frequency response- that's asking for trouble.

Here is a quick tip- All woofers start to beam (sound emits like light from a head lamp straight out) when the size of the sound waves become relevant to the size of the woofer. So it happens sooner in big woofers, and higher in freq for smaller woofers.

Roughly speaking- you usually want to consider the directivity match of the woofer/freq to the directivity of the tweeter. People like speakers with a good off axis response.

http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-waves.htm

consider the size of the wave to the size of the woofer ^

Ideally something like a 1500hz crossover makes a lot more sense for a 10" woofer. You can move it around based on different things, like 1200hz, or 1800hz- but I would certainly not go 5000hz.

You'd only run a woofer up that high on something like a guitar cabinet or something... where you want the cone breakup.

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Old 05-20-2015, 12:41 PM
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why would you say that ? Got a better suggestion for a Ribbon tweeter ? Or waveguide & compression driver.
What it your total budget on parts and what is your total goals ???

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20tpl150h-1.htm

^^^ looks nice

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Old 05-20-2015, 12:45 PM
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Hey Dashpuppy. I see you're in Nanaimo. I'm in Ladysmith, about 30mins from you, and I work in Nanaimo Mon-Fri. If you run into troubles (which I agree with the above, you probably will) contact me. First time speaker design is often alluring, but the results are often bad. You may have a honeymoon phase with your new creation, but it'll subside. I usually warn newbs that there's nothing about using a minidsp that changes the science of XO design. The only difference is you can disregard impedance. The drivers still need to match directivity, SPL capability, avoid tweeter strain, avoid woofer breakup, blend through the XO, keep distortion low, etc.

Where did you get the TS parameters for that woofer? I've never heard of it.
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Old 05-20-2015, 12:49 PM - Thread Starter
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What it your total budget on parts and what is your total goals ???

http://www.usspeaker.com/beyma%20tpl150h-1.htm

^^^ looks nice
That's way out to lunch 500$ per ribbon is not going to happen id say 130$ each ribbon or compression driver & wave guide ( pair )..

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Old 05-20-2015, 12:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Ideally something like a 1500hz crossover makes a lot more sense for a 10" woofer. You can move it around based on different things, like 1200hz, or 1800hz- but I would certainly not go 5000hz.

You'd only run a woofer up that high on something like a guitar cabinet or something... where you want the cone breakup.
Id like to run the woofer around 1800 - 2k.. but the specs of the driver are from 50-5500..

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Old 05-20-2015, 01:36 PM
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just because the specs say it goes that high doesn't mean you want to do it or that it would sound good.
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Old 05-20-2015, 01:38 PM
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Dash, we don't design speakers based on spec sheets. Spec sheets lie.

A woofer's operating range is usually limited by break-up, not roll-off at the high end. A tweeter's by roll-off at the low end, and distortion. When you measure your drivers for FR, you'll find out the woofer's actual operating range. Distortion curves will also tell you where the tweeter's happiest. Of course, that's only on-axis.

That's in addition to all the stuff tux and Mfusick mention. Take Tux up on his offer!

HAve fun,
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Old 05-20-2015, 02:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Dash, we don't design speakers based on spec sheets. Spec sheets lie.

A woofer's operating range is usually limited by break-up, not roll-off at the high end. A tweeter's by roll-off at the low end, and distortion. When you measure your drivers for FR, you'll find out the woofer's actual operating range. Distortion curves will also tell you where the tweeter's happiest. Of course, that's only on-axis.

That's in addition to all the stuff tux and Mfusick mention. Take Tux up on his offer!

HAve fun,
I'm going to meet him soon

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Old 05-20-2015, 02:39 PM
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Id like to run the woofer around 1800 - 2k.. but the specs of the driver are from 50-5500..
Depending on the top end choice you make for a driver you might even consider going a tad lower. 1500hz might be better to a 10".

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That's way out to lunch 500$ per ribbon is not going to happen id say 130$ each ribbon or compression driver & wave guide ( pair )..
Ok- good. So you are basically at my level But now we know.

$130 each is reasonable. If you do a CD you can do a nice 1" like DNA360 ($80 if you can get) or B&C DE250 ($110 from PE).

They match up to a variety of wave guides or horns. A SEOS 12" might work nice, and is available in plastic from PE too for a low cost. That will cross to basically any 10" woofer you wanted.

You should be able to cross anywhere between 1khz and 1600hz easily with those and be in a good place.

The reason why this combo might be nice too is a lot of people around here have used these parts and you can probably get basic advice right off the top of peoples heads and get you most of the way there- in case you get in trouble.

If you use unknown parts you'll want to make sure you have the ability to measure yourself well. Get a DIY jig like lilmike's thread explains and learn REW to do T/S parameters- or take Ryan (TUX) up on his offer. I wish I was in your place and had people around me willing to help or learn and do stuff with. Don't discount that.

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Old 05-20-2015, 03:38 PM
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$130 each is reasonable. If you do a CD you can do a nice 1" like DNA360 ($80 if you can get) or B&C DE250 ($110 from PE).
....and add a well known and commonly used 10" woofer like the Eminence Delta 10 and you have a proven combo to work with. A little digging and you'll probably find a crossover schematic and lots of design work already done if you decide to go passive.

Following a proven design doesn't sound that exciting but, in my opinion, you are better off spending the time and effort (and $) on a nice finish rather than trying to learn crossover design. It is pretty easy to build a crossover someone else designed. You really are on your own for making your DIY cabinet look good.

Build on!
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:04 PM - Thread Starter
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Depending on the top end choice you make for a driver you might even consider going a tad lower. 1500hz might be better to a 10".



Ok- good. So you are basically at my level But now we know.

$130 each is reasonable. If you do a CD you can do a nice 1" like DNA360 ($80 if you can get) or B&C DE250 ($110 from PE).

They match up to a variety of wave guides or horns. A SEOS 12" might work nice, and is available in plastic from PE too for a low cost. That will cross to basically any 10" woofer you wanted.

You should be able to cross anywhere between 1khz and 1600hz easily with those and be in a good place.

The reason why this combo might be nice too is a lot of people around here have used these parts and you can probably get basic advice right off the top of peoples heads and get you most of the way there- in case you get in trouble.

If you use unknown parts you'll want to make sure you have the ability to measure yourself well. Get a DIY jig like lilmike's thread explains and learn REW to do T/S parameters- or take Ryan (TUX) up on his offer. I wish I was in your place and had people around me willing to help or learn and do stuff with. Don't discount that.

My original driver i was looking at was, is this a better choice ?

Manufacturer: DAYTON AUDIO
Reference: DT250P-8
Summary: 44mm Polyamide Diaphragm Compression Driver




And this waveguide,



specs,

Dayton Audio H6512 6-1/2" x 12" Waveguide 1" Threaded

The Dayton Audio H6512 high frequency waveguide is precision molded from durable ABS plastic, and has an industry-standard 1-3/8" x 18 TPI throat for mounting screw-on style drivers. Its unique flare geometry exhibits a nominal 90° horizontal x 50° vertical coverage pattern, and will provide useful acoustical loading down to 1,000 Hz. Used in many DIY audio Econowave designs.

Specifications:

• Throat diameter: 1" • Driver mounting: 1-3/8"-18 TPI • Nominal coverage: 90°H x 50° V • Cutoff frequency: 1,000 Hz • Dimensions: 6-1/2" H x 12" W x 4-1/4" D • Cutout dimensions: 5" H x 10-1/2" W.

A waveguide couples the high frequency driver to the listening space without the harmful distortion artifacts of marginally designed and implemented horn loading. It achieves this through the use of non-traditional geometries and lower expansion rates. 

The resultant sound has less distortion, with an "open" characteristic not often associated with typical "pinched" or "honky" compression driver/horn combinations. Dayton Audio professional waveguides reveal all of the articulate, accurate sound reproduction that your HF drivers are capable of delivering, whether the application is live sound, critical studio monitoring, or demanding home audio playback.


BTW here are the parameter's of the 10" driver,


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Old 05-20-2015, 05:22 PM
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The SEOS 12 is a better choice for a waveguide. http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-...pter--300-7070

That CD is ok, but if you can wait until these are back in stock, they're a better choice. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/dna-360.html
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:24 PM - Thread Starter
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The SEOS 12 is a better choice for a waveguide. http://www.parts-express.com/denovo-...pter--300-7070

That CD is ok, but if you can wait until these are back in stock, they're a better choice. http://www.diysoundgroup.com/dna-360.html
I'm in canada and ordering from USA = butt rape

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Old 05-20-2015, 05:24 PM
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As far as your woofer's specs, the lack of a xmax spec concerns me. I also hope that you have a sub as I wouldn't expect a lot of bass from those woofers.
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Old 05-20-2015, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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As far as your woofer's specs, the lack of a xmax spec concerns me. I also hope that you have a sub as I wouldn't expect a lot of bass from those woofers.
I have a sub, but will be building a new one soon also.

The xmax on these is pretty good, lots of cone movement, right now they are on my desk free air breaking in. They have some ok excursion, then again i'm not looking for a 18hz sub out of them...

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Old 05-22-2015, 10:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Just and update, going to visit tuxedocivic, in the next little while here so we can chat. We have been so it's looking i can continue with the project after chatting in person with him..

I also have 4 more projects going on & a subwoofer build

Class A amplifiers & efficient speakers is what I run & DIY :)
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Old 05-22-2015, 11:17 PM
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Wow someone else from Nanaimo. You need to check out https://makerspacenanaimo.org/ .We got all the tools you need. We are also having a tube amp workshop the the end of next month. Hit with a P.M. and I can give you a tour of the space.
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Old 05-23-2015, 05:35 AM
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Just and update, going to visit tuxedocivic, in the next little while here so we can chat. We have been so it's looking i can continue with the project after chatting in person with him..

I also have 4 more projects going on & a subwoofer build
Cool. Let us know what you decide
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Old 05-23-2015, 09:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Wow someone else from Nanaimo. You need to check out https://makerspacenanaimo.org/ .We got all the tools you need. We are also having a tube amp workshop the the end of next month. Hit with a P.M. and I can give you a tour of the space.
pm'd



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Cool. Let us know what you decide
I have a few ideas, i will talk to him about it. I might go with a different waveguide too, not sure. I'lll run my ideas across him & on here and see what people think / say

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Old 05-23-2015, 11:08 AM
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Hi,

Since your in Canada, I'd suggest that you consider buying some of your parts from

The Eminence H290 (at $36.00cdn ) is a very good performer .

The Celestion CDX1-1747 ( at $106.cdn ) is an excellent 1" exit compression driver .
- This driver currently has zero profile ( though it's at least the equal of the B&C de250 , IME ) .
- BTW, most of the info posted over at Parts Express about this driver is wrong .



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Old 05-23-2015, 11:23 AM
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Good suggestion Earl. I recall someone in the SEOS thread mentioning that CD way back. I think it was vitamin bass. Then someone tested it and it did do very good.
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