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Too crazy of a sub idea?

6K views 158 replies 28 participants last post by  jlpowell84 
#1 ·
So I am going to be building a room from framing up inside my new garage soon. I plan on doing everything the right way...lot's of woofage :D

I always thought when I do a dedicated room I would have two rows of seating with second on a riser like everyone under the sun blah blah blah. But I followed AVS member "LeBon" in his build in which he did only one row of seating with a bar behind it. 95% of the time it's just my wife and I and so began the dreaming. Instead of spending more money on seating that just sits there why not more subs!!! Why not build a large in width and length and make skinny as possible sub box (I know it will have some thickness) slap a counter on top of it put some molding/trim on it, stain it, throw some chairs behind it and none would ever know it was a sub unless they peeked behind he seats! Kinda like Poppalocks SI 18's that were behind his seats but obviously my wall will be further back. Room will be around 22x17 but I will have an AT screen/false wall. Seating around 11.5ft. I already have two 2400 Submersives (deal of a lifetime) that I figure most likely will sit behind AT screen.

Surely this has been tried before right? from the minds of so many of you who are experienced what would you do? Since I have sealed already is it best to stay sealed or can we go ported for output? Is this just a dumb idea? I'm thinking why not slap like 4 SI 18's back there.

Anyway shoot me down or make my day :)
 
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#2 ·
here are a couple pics I borrowed from AVS users Poppalock and Lebon room builds. Imagine Poppalock's but with the back wall another 8ft back. Slap a counter on top, a little decorative molding and good to go! I prob won't have cured seating though and I plan on four seats.
 

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#3 ·
Interesting thought,

The only issue would be vibration, don't want to rattle the bottles or worse...have some fine spirits vibrate off and shatter. Just trying to prevent alcohol abuse. :cool: Look into push-pull subs or push-pull slot loaded subs to eliminate the vibration of the box. I use push-pull slot loaded subs in my garage to eliminate vibration so my line arrays sitting on top won't have it's 200 solder connections vibrated loose (81 drivers per speaker) The slot also protects the woofers from flying tools, parts or feet and lowers distortion.

The downsides are the increased box size for the slot and you need to run two subwoofer drivers per cabinet.
 
#5 · (Edited)
Yes I have thought about the vibration. The HP model submerives I have are LR speaker stands in my current living room. If braced enough and built like a tank do we think it will vibrate that bad? I really, just early in mental development, would like to keep the drivers behind the seats only. I suppose a giant dual opposed sub with high Xmax drivers but that will take the bar thicker than I wanted originally. Plus I like the thought of it being stealth with drivers hidden behind the seat. I was thinking also I could decouple the counter top somehow. Maybe lost efforts there?

I should add overall out of any upgrade that near field subs seemed to be number one. LCR JTR Triple 8's and Volt 10 surrounds and wides play effortlessly enough with pretty good dynamics. Sure could have better speakers but I believe I'm right at the performance to cost threshold where cost gets steep for a little more SQ. As you all know more subs, well now we're talking!
 
#10 ·
Haha! He has his Bose obsessions for sure! That YouTube video of his old Bose sub was epic :)

I thought about the SI 24 and just doing one giant sub but I figured two reasons why SI 18's may be better. One is I could add about 3-4 for the cost of one 24. Second is I would have to make the cabinet thicker for the bar. Austin did his SI 18 cabinet for behind his seats at 11.75 inches. Let's say I make it 13 for breathing room and call it good. I would like to keep a standard bar countertop as well and not move to a full blown wider standard kitchen countertop. I will need some overhang into the back of the room for the bar to be comfortable and operational. I have also been thinking of installing a moving monitor somehow for my gaming setup back there as well. Originally I thought I would take my current gaming setup, lazy boy with 24 inch Asus monitor on an Ergatron swing arm and install it all in the back corner of the room. But I'm a sucker for symmetry plus to install somehow in middle of bar will save space.
 
#9 ·
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#12 · (Edited)
Surely this has been tried before right? from the minds of so many of you who are experienced what would you do? Since I have sealed already is it best to stay sealed or can we go ported for output? Is this just a dumb idea? I'm thinking why not slap like 4 SI 18's back there.
It's not a dumb idea.

I've seen this very thing done before, they did it sealed, but I think ported might be best-for-the-money;
I just can't remember which audio forum I saw it on and which user it was, it was like 7 years ago...
If you google image searched for that topic you might find the sub picture and the thread.

You'd definitely want to do dual-opposed ported I'd think...

Many people would still recommend building a riser for your first row to get extra bass vibrations, that is also not a new-idea...
cement sucks for vibrations.
 
#13 ·
It's not a dumb idea.

I've seen this very thing done before, they did it sealed, but I think ported might be best-for-the-money;
I just can't remember which audio forum I saw it on and which user it was, it was like 7 years ago...
If you google image searched for that topic you might find the sub picture and the thread.

You'd definitely want to do dual-opposed ported I'd think...

Many people would still recommend building a riser for your first row to get extra bass vibrations, that is also not a new-idea...
I did a quick google and didn't find one but I will try again with different key words. i also pan on some kind of sub floor to enhance tactile response :)

I suppose I could do ported but I already have two 2400 HP model sealed Submersives. I'm not advanced enough to know how to deal with phase cancelations from mixing the two designs.

The problem with dual opposed is that it will make the cabinet pretty fat and therefore I would need a wide countertops just to have some overhang for leg room. My design goals are to keep the enclosure slim enough to use a approximately 24 inch wide bar counter top. Now this is just the beginning stage of mental development so I'm not arrogant enough to think someone can't think of a better design.

What I do like about dual opposed ported is like you said best bang for the buck. A couple giant 18's each with a ported enclosure the size of a fridge! I suppose selling the Submersives are not out of the question and then building ported ones up front as well!
 
#15 ·
As the owner of 2 freshly minted TH's, the ghorn refolded into the Lowarhorn . . .using 2 UXL's from the recent groupbuy,
while they are still outside on sawhorses, initial listening with music, as a 2.2 system, xo @ 80 and sine wave tones, so far no hint of any vibration issues except for all the rest of the world and debris and my favorite sports drink cans, Spike, several dozen laying about. . .

expense so far about $1800 including the new inuke6000 and fans mod, more in the thread as time and heat allows
 
#18 · (Edited)
Very nice! That also allows for more internal volume! then like above build a custom wood top for the bar. I like the metal punched panels idea! If I kept this sealed it would play nice with my two Submersive's. Thing is I don't want to cut myself short (not going ported or horn) to try and keep submersives. I have always had a gut feeling that horns will give the bass experience I have always wanted! I plan on some super towers a couple yrs down the road with high end BMS cd's and don't want to have to build more subs then. Maybe I sell Submersives and build 4 Ghorns. two behind AT screen and two integrated into bar behind seating. I have been chasing the dragon so to speak as my desired sub experience. Years ago at a concert the bass hit so hard, so clean and so deep and fast it was addicting. I have always kinda knew horn style is the only way but I got a killer deal on two submersives I couldn't pass up.
 
#19 ·
for all the hoo-haa, it's only crazy if your room doesn't get all the benefit if the LF capacity you want to put in it
 
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#28 ·
I knew this comment was coming :) I know it's pretty bare bones considering the crowd round here! I was just trying to catch some eyes :)

I have really really developed my mind into selling the farm (it's small) as in LCR Triple 8's and 2x Submersive 2400 HP's and buying drivers to mimic Luke's MEGA MAINS! Start with that insanity and let the chips fall where they may with subs down the road. As far as room design I love the bar sub idea and plan full bore on that but it may delay a bit (one bonus season) if I go nuts on LCR. Then I like 2x Ghorns built into the bar all said and done. I certainly could do the subs as well but then I may be out of funds for a bit to construct room. So maybe it's best to let this thread die until I can get my Sxxx straight :)
 
#27 ·
I think it's a great idea - I plan to do the same with a 24 or two. My plan is to overbuild the box to get it as heavy as I can, and to angle the front of it so that it is as close as possible to the seat in front when the seat is reclined.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Concert level bass? Well, I would suggest splitting up bass duty into sub-bass and bass. For example two subwoofer drivers in a huge 6th order enclosure or horn inside the bar, for the 10-40hz spectrum, and PA woofers for the 40-200hz spectrum.
FYI; 3 half-decent PA style LCR builds won't cost more combined than one decent pair of subwoofers for the 6th order enclosure. A decent PA style LCR setup pulls 120db or so at 11 feet no problem at all, I can promise you that you won't listen to that loud levels for long stretches. 140db below 45hz is no problem for parts of a movie, but higher frequency is a different story. So go nuts in subwoofer area, half-nuts is enough in the LCR department.
 
#30 ·
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#42 ·
Once I went nearfield, it was game over. There are no amount of subs you could stick into a room that will give you the same feeling, I know because I've tried! lol It's so fun. The one bad thing about them is when you go to someones place to hear their system..... it feels like you're missing half the fun!

The first time I played Edge of Tomorrow, even though I knew something was coming.... holy crap, that made me smile for the rest of the day :)
 
#53 ·
Where do you guys come up with this stuff? The LFE channel has content up to 125Hz (perhaps higher). Unless you have a 40Hz low pass filter on your sub you're not limiting the sub to only content below 40Hz. You might be crossing your mains to your sub at 40Hz, but that's only redirected bass, not a LPF on all content to the sub.
 
#58 ·
They are using external DSP which is receiving LFE + redirected bass from their receivers to send to these systems.
:confused: Uh... so all the bass in the LFE channel above 40Hz just vanishes, and the redirected bass gets messed up by putting a 2nd stacked LPF on top of the one in the receiver already there creating the redirected bass.

Sometimes I really wonder about this place...
 
#59 ·
Here are some SPL numbers I reached with only the mains (subwoofers off) on the front row of seats which is about 9ft from the speakers.

 
#75 ·
This is just a secondary consideration that you might want to think about. Though for Subwoofers, I'm not sure what the solution is.

In the original drawing we see a bank of Subs in the front under the screen, and we see a bank of Subs behind the seating area. But those Subs are not working together. While they may be Electrically In-Phase, they are Mechanically Out of Phase.

To illustrate, when the front Sub drivers move South, the rear Sub drivers move North. They are mechanically in conflict, They are going to create colliding wave fronts.

However, if you wire the rear speaker Electrically Out of Phase, then the driver would work in a synchronized fashion. When the front drivers move South, the rear drivers also move South. Rather than colliding forces, you have combining forces.

As illustrated in this diagram -



The problem is, with Subs, it is much more difficult to invert the signal. With normal speakers you just reverse the wires. but I'm not sure that is going to work with a Sub that has coaxial inputs.

Still, it is a concept to keep in mind. It is a question of the Subs opposing each other or re-enforcing each other.

Steve/bluewizard
 
#78 · (Edited)
Ehm, in this example electrically out of phase subwoofers would result in a cancellation of sound. Lower db.
EDIT: Don't forget that the sound travels at 340 or so meters per second, in a 3.4 meter room by the time the cone has moved for 0.01 seconds the resulting wave has traveled to the other side of the room. So if one cone moves in at one side and out of the room at the other, it would be easier on the drivers, but you would effectively cancel out the work both are doing (less and less work would be cancelled the larger the distance between them).
Think of a room more along the line of a combustion chamber in a diesel engine, not waves on a pond. If you move the piston up towards the cylinder head you compress the air, the more you compress it the larger the db. If you have the cylinder head move in tandem to the piston you have no net db gain other than what is caused by the distance difference between the two moving surfaces (and the weight of the air). Where vented enclosures kick closed enclosure butt is because vented enclosures essentially let the piston almost fully compress the air before the air has time to escape through the vent, whereas a closed enclosure is more along a piston without a cylinder head trying to compress the air in an entire room.
 
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