The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread - Page 14 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #391 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Javs View Post
OK, so a bit of a question here
The way the speaker draws power from the amp is a complex situation. It is different at different frequencies. The excursion is also changing with frequency. So adding or subtracting boost will have different effects depending on which frequency you're at.

The really tricky part is that the excursion and the power draw don't match up. Even though the impedance is lowest at tune, the driver may actually pull more power away from tune. The pa460 tuned at 20hz will have its lowest impedance at 20hz, but the maximum power draw will be around 26hz or up above 120hz. You can add some boost around tune where excursion is low, which will keep you within xmax, but at the same time, the coil will be absorbing alot of juice while it's not moving to cool itself down.

How all of that plays out isn't easy to calculate. If you can model your setup in winisd you could probably get a rough idea of where adding boost won't hurt as much, and where it will eat up headroom. I try to stay away from adding boost at excursion maximums if possible, and also at excursion minimums. The pa460 is mostly excursion limited, so adding a little boost at excursion minimums might not be as bad as some other drivers. It has a decent power rating, and was designed as a low xmax driver, so it should be able to handle some power while not moving much. We haven't heard of many failures with the pa460 so it might be tough enough for a little abuse. I know I run mine beyond what it should be able to handle based on the listed specs. I've seen the red light flicker on my 3kdsp running a pair with no limiter. That should be around 1600 watts. Who knows how long they could keep that up, but they're still working.
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post #392 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 08:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
The way the speaker draws power from the amp is a complex situation. It is different at different frequencies. The excursion is also changing with frequency. So adding or subtracting boost will have different effects depending on which frequency you're at.

The really tricky part is that the excursion and the power draw don't match up. Even though the impedance is lowest at tune, the driver may actually pull more power away from tune. The pa460 tuned at 20hz will have its lowest impedance at 20hz, but the maximum power draw will be around 26hz or up above 120hz. You can add some boost around tune where excursion is low, which will keep you within xmax, but at the same time, the coil will be absorbing alot of juice while it's not moving to cool itself down.

How all of that plays out isn't easy to calculate. If you can model your setup in winisd you could probably get a rough idea of where adding boost won't hurt as much, and where it will eat up headroom. I try to stay away from adding boost at excursion maximums if possible, and also at excursion minimums. The pa460 is mostly excursion limited, so adding a little boost at excursion minimums might not be as bad as some other drivers. It has a decent power rating, and was designed as a low xmax driver, so it should be able to handle some power while not moving much. We haven't heard of many failures with the pa460 so it might be tough enough for a little abuse. I know I run mine beyond what it should be able to handle based on the listed specs. I've seen the red light flicker on my 3kdsp running a pair with no limiter. That should be around 1600 watts. Who knows how long they could keep that up, but they're still working.
Here is the complete model of both my boxes with Bassbox pro.



I just wish I had 3db more output at the chair (I sit quite close in my room so distance here is not as big an issue as it is for most), without hitting the red limiter. I am so close to being more than happy to set and forget these subs. Just trying to make sure I have them set up for the most efficient response possible with relation to keeping the general response where it is in terms of calibration. I am not sure if there is a couple areas I can safely pull back by 1db here and there, and in the end gain 3db more headroom/volume overall and give up just a slightly less flat response. I suppose that would be most effective at the section you describe, pulling back a little between 20 and 30hz?

There is a default 10db gain in the iNuke at 20hz for the VBSS settings (MTG90 used to actually have this at +15db for the 20hz tune) So I gained some headroom there based on the initial file as I had pretty good room gain there already. This DEQ setting is what makes it look like a normal sub compared to that really long slow rise in the response which would make it look more like a regular woofer.

I guess this wouldn't be a problem if I had an iNuke 6000 because it seems like I am using every watt of juice out of the 3000 and still hitting the red limiter since I have four subs wired at 4ohms per channel. Limiter is set to -0.1dbFS or 884w per channel.

Its just confusing since this iNuke thing is doing the EQ for this sub in the opposite way I would have expected and that is to just flatten out the response from 20hz and up, where as this is boosting 20hz to meet the rest of the natural response of the driver, so its getting me a bit confused on what is what. I guess I could have a go at setting the filters to cut everything from 20hz up instead and create a response from that.

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post #393 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 08:52 PM
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The dynamic eq setting shouldn't be eating into your headroom. It dials back the boost as you near the upper limits. Any other boost you add as PEQ will eat up headroom. If you pull down the boost on the low end in that 20-30hz area you should get less of the red light. Bass in the upper range around 80-100hz will also pull alot of power, but your crossover should cut down on that. If you have any PEQ below 30hz, try reducing that to see if the red light goes away. If you still have the second dynamic eq filter unused, you could add your low end bass with that, which would let you keep the flat response when listening at lower volume levels.


I'm not sure what HPF setting you're using, but I like to keep those two peaks at the same level. I bet raising the order of your HPF will cut down the low peak and raise the second peak. Not only will that keep your excursion maximum at the same level above and below tune, it will also give you back a bit of spl above the HPF.
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post #394 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 09:02 PM
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Man I haven't seen the 3rd clip light on mine yet. You guys must be pounding these things!

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post #395 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Samps View Post
The dynamic eq setting shouldn't be eating into your headroom. It dials back the boost as you near the upper limits. Any other boost you add as PEQ will eat up headroom. If you pull down the boost on the low end in that 20-30hz area you should get less of the red light. Bass in the upper range around 80-100hz will also pull alot of power, but your crossover should cut down on that. If you have any PEQ below 30hz, try reducing that to see if the red light goes away. If you still have the second dynamic eq filter unused, you could add your low end bass with that, which would let you keep the flat response when listening at lower volume levels.


I'm not sure what HPF setting you're using, but I like to keep those two peaks at the same level. I bet raising the order of your HPF will cut down the low peak and raise the second peak. Not only will that keep your excursion maximum at the same level above and below tune, it will also give you back a bit of spl above the HPF.
Thanks, will experiment later.

As for the bolded, yes, way ahead of you, that model is for 12db high-pass, I am using 18 actually for 17hz low pass, so I would safely say that peak at 12hz should actually be quite a bit lower than the tuning peak.

Just looking at my freq response, I might just pull down by 2db that little tiny bump at 25 hz. That might be enough. I wasn't kidding when I said I was so close to being happy, literally adding 3db to the subs yesterday in testing sealed the deal with most of my test content, greater slam and impact, wouldnt want more, but then running the torture tests like the opening of Transformers 4 (The dinosaurs scene) and Interstellar Black hole entry, I was hitting clipping. When I dailled back down to my normal setting I am not hitting red clipping at all in those scenes. I am half a db away from hitting red lights right now in those scenes, but +3db gives me great impact on most other content (Which doesnt quite approach WCS levels like the torture tests seem to). Hence having a look at this again.


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post #396 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 09:13 PM
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Man I haven't seen the 3rd clip light on mine yet. You guys must be pounding these things!
Yeah, I like to make sure I am good to go for reference levels... I do watch at that level fairly often for demo's and when I feel like shaking the walls... Plus my room is OPEN to the whole house, so I actually lose a LOT of energy down the hallways and such, if it were totally sealed, I think I would be getting smashed around the room from all that contained energy
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post #397 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 09:45 PM
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The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread

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Based on a quick sim. 2 of the old si18s vs 3 pa460s are about tied at 40hz in 21 cubic feet of cab tuned to 20hz. SI18 has about 3db more at 20hz, and pa460 has about 3db more at 60hz. If you'll be using this at least 50 percent of the time for movies then the SI18s will probably be better. If you only watch one movie a week, and listen to music really loud 7 nights a week the pa460s would be better.



Powering 3 pa460s is not really ideal. 4 would get you an easier amp situation.



The SI18s will require at about twice as much power at a 2 to 3 ratio. A pa460 can be driven to xmax with as little as 400 watts in a decent sized cab. The SI18 will likely need around 1000.


So It sounds like 4 vbss with a inuke 3000dsp is the way to go. I do have a open floor plan so I will squeeze all the juice from that amp. Should I do the inuke 6000dsp instead? I'm mostly watching movies and playing games.


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post #398 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 10:32 PM
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The precision ports will be $108 if I build 4 vbss. That's more than a pa460. Hmmmm


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post #399 of 469 Old 04-04-2017, 11:22 PM
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The precision ports will be $108 if I build 4 vbss. That's more than a pa460. Hmmmm


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Build it with slot ports like me...

Also, I recommend a 6000DSP.

We dont even know if the modelled 440w I can safely send to my subs is ACTUALLY what's being sent by the 3000DSP. There is every chance the 3000 is sending 350w instead since they kind of under deliver on rated power, leaves a little on the table far as I can see... If I were to do it again I would grab a 6k.

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post #400 of 469 Old 04-05-2017, 04:36 AM
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@Javs

Remember that the red light on the inuke isn't a brick wall. When you bump up against the limiter, the inuke will dial back the voltage until the signal drops to a safe level. If you push it too far, the limiter might get overwhelmed, but I'm not sure we know that exact behavior. Notnyt did some tests on the limiter somewhere along the way, and found it to work pretty well.
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post #401 of 469 Old 04-08-2017, 08:03 PM
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The V.B.S.S. DIY subwoofer design thread

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Originally Posted by Javs View Post
Build it with slot ports like me...

Also, I recommend a 6000DSP.

We dont even know if the modelled 440w I can safely send to my subs is ACTUALLY what's being sent by the 3000DSP. There is every chance the 3000 is sending 350w instead since they kind of under deliver on rated power, leaves a little on the table far as I can see... If I were to do it again I would grab a 6k.

Interesting. I like the idea of the slot ports.


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post #402 of 469 Old 04-08-2017, 08:28 PM
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Quote:
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Interesting. I like the idea of the slot ports.
Correct, my subs are 20hz tunes. Boxes sizes are different which means the port dimensions etc are all going to need to also be different.

WinISD or Bassbox pro will tell you what size ports you need to make, just watch the driver excursion and the port velocity in your models.

There was no way I was about to waste a couple hundred dollars on ports. Plus I think slots look better.
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post #403 of 469 Old 04-08-2017, 09:33 PM
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I agree. Do a slot port between 15 and 20Hz.

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post #404 of 469 Old 04-08-2017, 09:56 PM
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Its what I will be doing for my build. Slow ports for the win
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post #405 of 469 Old 04-08-2017, 10:07 PM
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This is for sure in my future and I too like slot ports more than the typical rounded ports.

If I have the room in my next house id like to have an offset with a single port. I miss having the hit of my dual 8"s. Mind you that was in a tiny room. Music wise it destroyed my single ht 18".


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post #406 of 469 Old 04-09-2017, 06:32 AM
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Is anyone building VBSS flatpacks to sell? I have 2 460s in the PA Flatpack 4cubes. They sound great in my music only system, but am wondering if I am missing some of the visceral hit. Would be interested in a couple flatpacks if anyone is doing them....
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post #407 of 469 Old 04-19-2017, 03:04 PM
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About to begin the build on my two V.B.S.S enclosures.
Will post pics as they come together, very excited to get going on these!
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post #408 of 469 Old 04-20-2017, 08:39 AM
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About to begin the build on my two V.B.S.S enclosures.
Will post pics as they come together, very excited to get going on these!
Can you do the same thing put show the important dimensions like box and slot measurements?

Or just attach your SketchUp file and we can look ourselves
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@mikeTRON250LM

Attached are the dimensions, the only missing one is the port length which will be 41" in total.
Aiming for 20Hz
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post #410 of 469 Old 04-20-2017, 07:08 PM
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@mikeTRON250LM

Attached are the dimensions, the only missing one is the port length which will be 41" in total.
Aiming for 20Hz
Thanks. I was wondering about the small port on the other box as it seemed too small
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post #411 of 469 Old 04-20-2017, 07:46 PM
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Thanks. I was wondering about the small port on the other box as it seemed too small
Yes, I was advised on my "Game Plan Needed" thread that it needed widening to avoid port noise.
To be honest all of this is very new to me and I have no idea what the difference in 15hz, 20hz, 40hz etc etc actually is other than what I've read, but I'm yet to actually hear or feel these differences so all of this is being built on the advice given and read on this forum.
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post #412 of 469 Old 04-20-2017, 08:48 PM
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Hey, @winty82 I was just about to suggest that you post in this thread to get a little more feedback on your design. I'm glad you went ahead and posted here.
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post #413 of 469 Old 04-24-2017, 11:10 AM
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[QUOTE=lz7j;46251113]I'll be running 8 x pa460's in modified Martycubes (5.5ft^3 and 24hz tune). I currently have 4 in place directly behind my seats and they're only being powered by 1-channel on an xls2000 at 2ohms. On their own, it's just plain stupid (measured 130db+ at 40hz using a csl cm-140 playing tones). Makes my eyeballs vibrate like crazy. Combined with my HST18's and UXL18's, I have to get a termlab to measure properly, but it gets very uncomfortable.


Thinking of doing exactly what you did and place eight PA 460 drivers in Martycube cabinets.
curious what did you do to modify them?
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post #414 of 469 Old 04-25-2017, 04:49 PM
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I'm gonna be upgrading my PB-1000 soon and am gonna go down the diy route. Was wondering how two of these would compare with commercial options?
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post #415 of 469 Old 04-25-2017, 05:01 PM
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[quote=jake515;52477649]
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Originally Posted by lz7j View Post
I'll be running 8 x pa460's in modified Martycubes (5.5ft^3 and 24hz tune). I currently have 4 in place directly behind my seats and they're only being powered by 1-channel on an xls2000 at 2ohms. On their own, it's just plain stupid (measured 130db+ at 40hz using a csl cm-140 playing tones). Makes my eyeballs vibrate like crazy. Combined with my HST18's and UXL18's, I have to get a termlab to measure properly, but it gets very uncomfortable.


Thinking of doing exactly what you did and place eight PA 460 drivers in Martycube cabinets.
curious what did you do to modify them?
reduced the port length to increase volume and increase the tune
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post #416 of 469 Old 04-25-2017, 08:38 PM
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[quote=lz7j;52519305]
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reduced the port length to increase volume and increase the tune


How much length did you take off the port?
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post #417 of 469 Old 04-26-2017, 11:25 AM
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Quote:
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I'm gonna be upgrading my PB-1000 soon and am gonna go down the diy route. Was wondering how two of these would compare with commercial options?
I have a HSU VTF-15H which is about $1050 shipped and it is amazing. It allows you to play sealed, one or two ports with an easy pull on some foam plugs and a flip of a switch for EQ. It is great, I really cant say that enough for those wanting to BUY a sub. Now I just finished my pair of VBSS and they destroy my HSU. I think I have about $700 in my pair (with a 6000DSP amp). I can now add as many more as I want, up to 16 I suppose, for $140 each. There is no way commercial offerings can keep up. The one benefit to commercial stuff is they are very pretty and well put together and you can plug and play immediately. I havent tuned or even run REW once on my setup yet, so the marginal difference between them will only get better.
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post #418 of 469 Old 04-26-2017, 11:39 AM
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Google is not helping me, but how am I supposed to wire 2 VBSS (with one per channel) from my Inuke 6000dsp?

I originally thought I needed to build a speakon cable for channel A on 1+ and 1- then Channel B on 2+ and 2-. I then matched the female speakon to the same but only channel A works. In my settings on my laptop I see A and B both have an input (when loading the VBSS settings from the first post) but I only got output to channel A. I changed the B channel cable to 1+ and 1- on the side that goes into the amp and now they are both playing.

Is this correct? should both channels be on 1+/1- out of the amp?? I didn't want to actually have them on the same channel with half the power I thought I was giving them.

They are unfinished as I will paint them and built the legs to make them downfiring, but I wanted to hear them last night...



Thanks!
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Last edited by mikeTRON250LM; 04-26-2017 at 12:15 PM.
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post #419 of 469 Old 04-26-2017, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by mikeTRON250LM View Post
Is this correct? should both channels be on 1+/1- out of the amp?? I didn't want to actually have them on the same channel with half the power I thought I was giving them.

I went back to the manual on the inuke and confirmed that BOTH channels needed to be wired to the 1+ and 1- terminals on the connectors. I guess I need to pull the female and rewire it so I can have everything on the 1+/1-.


You can clearly see what they want you to do on the back of the amp...
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post #420 of 469 Old 04-26-2017, 11:52 AM
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Build it with slot ports like me...

Also, I recommend a 6000DSP.

We dont even know if the modelled 440w I can safely send to my subs is ACTUALLY what's being sent by the 3000DSP. There is every chance the 3000 is sending 350w instead since they kind of under deliver on rated power, leaves a little on the table far as I can see... If I were to do it again I would grab a 6k.
Hold up ? You been holding out on me.....lol Got any pics of your build ?

JVC DLA-RS400U
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Ported Primate SI 18" HST subs x 2(DIY)
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