Electrical service for subs and main amps ?? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 01:47 AM
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When you guys talk about running sub panels, are those basically separate breaker boxes that are located somewhere in the home physically apart from the main breaker box? In the case of adding a separate sub panel, would it have a single wire connecting it to the main service panel/breaker box?

I have been wanting to run some additional 110v lines to my sun porch which is currently doubling as my shop (it's big) so as to not have to constantly drag the extension cords around. problem is that it is not possible to run another wire to the breaker box due to its location and the design of my home.
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post #32 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 03:01 AM - Thread Starter
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post #33 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
When you guys talk about running sub panels, are those basically separate breaker boxes that are located somewhere in the home physically apart from the main breaker box? In the case of adding a separate sub panel, would it have a single wire connecting it to the main service panel/breaker box?

I have been wanting to run some additional 110v lines to my sun porch which is currently doubling as my shop (it's big) so as to not have to constantly drag the extension cords around. problem is that it is not possible to run another wire to the breaker box due to its location and the design of my home.
A sub panel can be located anywhere: in house, in shed, in garage, wherever code will allow. Keep in mind that disconnects may be required if the subpanel will be installed outside the home (like a porch - you'll need to check your local codes). The sub panel is supplied by the main service panel. Below is a quick image to get an idea.

I installed a 100amp subpanel in my home which required a 100amp breaker in the main service panel. I then used #6 wire to connect the 100amp breaker in the main service panel to the subpanel. The #6 run is 4 wires. Hot leg a, hot leg b, neutral, and ground.

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post #34 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 07:09 AM
 
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I haven't had any issues with mine yet (bought a contractor pack to save money) ... I ran 5 20 amp circuits to my utility closet for the theater ...
Once you blow them once or twice they are spent, toss them. Annoying given their cost. I smoked one running very little current (15a)

No more 15a allowed in my house. A 20a cost only $0.65 more, worth it. A little extra for some 12 instead of 14, perhaps a buck here and there for 20a outlets... All money well spent if you are starting fresh.
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post #35 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 07:15 AM
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Thankfully, arc faults are not required where KG and I live. At least, the inspector that I used (who is also a code instructor), did not mention me having to have them.
For my above ground pool power outlets, I chose to use arc faults in my main panel instead of having to use specialty GFCI's at the pool.
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post #36 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by dtsdig View Post
Thankfully, arc faults are not required where KG and I live. At least, the inspector that I used (who is also a code instructor), did not mention me having to have them.
For my above ground pool power outlets, I chose to use arc faults in my main panel instead of having to use specialty GFCI's at the pool.
I find that very hard to believe ... look up 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Dwelling Units ...

Perhaps Rochester NY is 5 years behind?
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post #37 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 08:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Mfusick View Post
Once you blow them once or twice they are spent, toss them. Annoying given their cost. I smoked one running very little current (15a)

No more 15a allowed in my house. A 20a cost only $0.65 more, worth it. A little extra for some 12 instead of 14, perhaps a buck here and there for 20a outlets... All money well spent if you are starting fresh.
I run 12 gauge always with 20amp circuits, but I over build everything like almost everyone in this sub-forum

I recommend you do the same kg
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post #38 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I run 12 gauge always with 20amp circuits, but I over build everything like almost everyone in this sub-forum
Hole hog'd for four runs of 12/2 and will be done with this leg of the install soon enough

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post #39 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
I find that very hard to believe ... look up 210.12 Arc-Fault Circuit-Interrupter Protection for Dwelling Units ...

Perhaps Rochester NY is 5 years behind?
You're entitled to believe whatever you want, but I replaced my main house panel, meter socket and service entrance cable and filled the new box with new standard breakers and passed inspection with flying colors. Perhaps the rule only applies to new construction and not replacement in an existing dwelling?

EDIT: After reading through a mess of pages explaining 210.12, I believe my situation may have not required AFCI's because the inspection was for a main breaker panel replacement, not installing new circuits into and existing dwelling. I changed out the panel and reinstalled the wiring into it on a 1-1 basis without changing what was already attached.

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post #40 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 08:20 PM
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If you passed, that is all that matters for resale and insurance reasons

I wasn't implying you were wrong or I was right... I literally just foundit hard to believe an area hadn't adopted 2011 standards yet. Your replacement scenario makes sense though
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post #41 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 08:49 PM
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I had several circuits added to my panel when we added a screened in porch. no arc faults installed. Passed. AFAIK, my AHJ has decided they are only required in new dwellings, but privately admit they know most people take them out because of the increased nuisance trips...
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post #42 of 57 Old 02-02-2016, 08:54 PM
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Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post
Went to Lowes, got ahold of an ex electriaian lowes emplyee and started my laundry list of parts......

Lets just say after about a thirty minute conversation he asked me why not just run four 12/2 lines and be done with it. It will be exactly the same electricity and you saved a ton of money and time.....Sounds like a plan to me :0)
I just added two more 20 amp circuits for my system. Now have a total of six 20 amp circuits. Figured that should handle whatever I want. Have six runs of 12-2. Easy for me, since my outlets are located only a couple feet from my main panel. My equipment is right beside my main panel.

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post #43 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
I just added two more 20 amp circuits for my system. Now have a total of six 20 amp circuits. Figured that should handle whatever I want. Have six runs of 12-2. Easy for me, since my outlets are located only a couple feet from my main panel. My equipment is right beside my main panel.
Thats my kind of thinking. Haha
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post #44 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 04:52 AM - Thread Starter
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I just added two more 20 amp circuits for my system. Now have a total of six 20 amp circuits. Figured that should handle whatever I want. Have six runs of 12-2. Easy for me, since my outlets are located only a couple feet from my main panel. My equipment is right beside my main panel.
200amp sub panel :0)

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post #45 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 05:26 AM
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post #46 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by klipsch View Post
If you passed, that is all that matters for resale and insurance reasons

I wasn't implying you were wrong or I was right... I literally just found it hard to believe an area hadn't adopted 2011 standards yet. Your replacement scenario makes sense though

I gotcha and it's all good. I am pretty convinced that my situation was acceptable because of the not adding new circuits to an existing dwelling thing. Looking at my local town code docs this morning, it states that my town does comply with current code and actually has even more stringent restrictions in some cases above and beyond what state code requires. I ran into that with the wiring for my pool pump.
Either way, I'm glad I'm in the clear.
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post #47 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 05:58 AM
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If you didn't buy the cable yet, check the price of 12/2/2 or 12/4. Run (2) of either of those for your circuits... it's the same as (4) 12/2.
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post #48 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 06:36 AM
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If you didn't buy the cable yet, check the price of 12/2/2 or 12/4. Run (2) of either of those for your circuits... it's the same as (4) 12/2.
With 2 12/4s you would end up with 10 total wires. 2 grounds and 8 line/neutral wires.
12/2 is three wires for a total of 12. 4 grounds and 8 line/neutral wires.

With the 12/4 you would end up having to share the ground over two of the breakers which i don't think is explicitly spelled out as against code, but I don't think an inspector would pass this. Also, what looks like a single run would actually require two breakers to be flipped off before working with the line. This also might not be explicitly spelled out as against code, but it is incredibly dangerous.

--> Edit: Based on @Retsdiv comments (next post) I went back and read more about using the 12/4s. It is common in commercial, but I had never seen it in residential, although it can be done in residential. I still stand by my statement that for the average residential homeowner having the shared 12/4 instead of separate 12/2 is confusing and more dangerous. Essentially a DIYer would look at one NM cable and think 1 breaker. In the 12/4 usage the one NM cable is two breakers to de-energize. Obviously as DIYers doing home improvement we always need to check all leads in the box! I personally don't run two circuits into the same junction box, even though it is allowed, based on personal preference from an incident years ago! Thank you @Retsdiv for pointing out my mistake!

@kgveteran I realize it feels like you are adding a ton of wire, but take a second to compare to your main floor of your house. Count how many breakers you have originally and realize that probably half of those breakers end up driving 100 feet of cable as it snakes up and down through the walls of you house! It isn't continuous because it stops at lights and outlets, but it is the same amount of cable.
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Last edited by bitmap42; 02-03-2016 at 11:56 AM. Reason: @Retsdiv Based on Retsdiv's comments, looked at whether it is code, and the use of the shared 12/4s is allowed.
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post #49 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 07:57 AM
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With the 12/4 you would end up having to share the ground over two of the breakers which i don't think is explicitly spelled out as against code, but I don't think an inspector would pass this.
You are passing out bad info here! I'm an electrical engineer, master electrician, and have been working for a commercial electrical contractor for more than 18 years. Trust me, this is per code and an inspector would have no problem with it. Grounding conductors (ground) do not connect to the breaker! They all land at the same ground bar in the panel, so it does not matter if there's two or four. The important things are a low resistance path to ground and separate grounded conductors (neutrals). For instance, in a commercial setting an electrician may install a PVC conduit in the floor slab for multiple 20A branch circuits. The NEC only requires one grounding conductor to be installed in that conduit regardless of how many branch circuits are in it. If the OP wanted to, he could install a conduit and pull (4) #12 phase conductors, (4) #12 neutral conductors, and (1) #12 ground.

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what looks like a single run would actually require two breakers to be flipped off before working with the line.
Nope, incorrect. We're not sharing neutrals... each breaker is individual.

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it is incredibly dangerous
This absolutely is NOT dangerous, and completely satisfies the NEC. *Edit- electricity is inherently dangerous... I should have said this is a safe wiring method.

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post #50 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 08:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Got all my holes drilled for the (4) 12/2's.......

I think 12/3 would short you a neutral and a ground, if you wanted to do two circuits. I think 12/3 is mainly for 220, it fits perfect. 12/4 (i've never seen) sounds like it would double up the neutral/ground.... So each hot would have a neutral and ground.....

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post #51 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 10:09 AM
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12/4 (i've never seen) sounds like it would double up the neutral/ground.... So each hot would have a neutral and ground.....
Yup!
12/2/2 is a better choice if you can find it locally. It would have a black, red, white, white with stripe, and bare ground. Perfect for two 120V circuits.
12/4 typically has a black, red, blue, white, and bare ground. The colors provided are more for a three phase circuit, or a 240V circuit and a 120V circuit under the same jacket. It works the same, you just tape the ends of the blue wire with white tape to identify it as a neutral.
For the price of two rolls of 12/2 at Lowes, one of your local electrical supply houses might have 12/2/2 by the foot.

Holes look good
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post #52 of 57 Old 02-03-2016, 12:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Yup!
12/2/2 is a better choice if you can find it locally. It would have a black, red, white, white with stripe, and bare ground. Perfect for two 120V circuits.
12/4 typically has a black, red, blue, white, and bare ground. The colors provided are more for a three phase circuit, or a 240V circuit and a 120V circuit under the same jacket. It works the same, you just tape the ends of the blue wire with white tape to identify it as a neutral.
For the price of two rolls of 12/2 at Lowes, one of your local electrical supply houses might have 12/2/2 by the foot.

Holes look good
Does it come in flexible stranded style, i've seen it. It isnt a solid core romex ?

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post #53 of 57 Old 02-04-2016, 05:44 AM
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Yes, it is available in romex... I know Cerrowire and Southwire both make it. Here's and example:
http://www.menards.com/main/12-2-2-2...4442900217.htm
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post #54 of 57 Old 02-08-2016, 07:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Is there any way to keep this a semi permanent install coming through the floor
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post #55 of 57 Old 02-08-2016, 08:23 AM
 
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Is there any way to keep this a semi permanent install coming through the floor http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/image_27.jpg

Cant get an image to come up
You really should fish it into the wall if you can. But you can do a floor receptacle I guess. If you already have a big hole, that would make the most sense.

Check out something like these:





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post #56 of 57 Old 02-08-2016, 08:24 AM
 
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Is there any way to keep this a semi permanent install coming through the floor http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/image_27.jpg

Cant get an image to come up
You use [img] and [/img] tags before and after your link for picture

Example:

[img] + http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/a...s/image_27.jpg + [/img]

just close it down to be ""

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post #57 of 57 Old 02-11-2016, 12:20 PM - Thread Starter
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So, here is the old work box with the four 12/2 runs. My plan is to use flexible 3/4" metal conduit to all my steel boxes which will house the relays for the power amps. Now i have to use wire nuts and stranded wire in the conduit. Should i use the solid ground wire throughout or at the steel wall mount box wire nut green ground wires to the steel boxes.......

I cant use a wall mounted outlet solution..... My equipment will be sitting on the fireplace hearth

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