AVS Forum banner

Dual sub options: HST18+UM18 or HST18+PA460?

10K views 90 replies 22 participants last post by  gr4474 
#1 ·
Just for the sake of thinking out loud, I thought maybe this would get some discussion going. I currently have an HST18 in a 4ft^3 sealed box. Amp is Inuke6k. Room is 2525 ft^3 and I hit 114 dB at 20 Hz with the single driver off one channel of the Inuke(amp is tapped out here). For my second cab, I have the option to use either the UM-18 or the new SI DS4. I've been leaning towards the UM-18 just because it is a sure thing, DB tested, excellent real world actual test results with very low distortion, etc. Modeling show it to be slightly more sensitive in the mid and upper bass by a couple of dB than the DS4. I feel like the mid and upper bass is the weakness in my system currently due to mediocre bookshelf speakers with 6.5" woofers and $200 AVR.

I am curious as to whether perhaps something like the PA-460 driver in the 2nd sealed cab might provide superior overall results in my system. I would like to upgrade my mains to Fusion 8's in the future but this is unlikely to happen anytime soon.

Typical max listening level on movies is -15 to -10, but I like having clean reference level capability to ensure plenty of headroom for running the subs hot, house curves, etc. I've read up on a few things lately in which people have been extremely impressed by the addition of mid bass type woofers when added to the common, low efficiency deep bass HT drivers.

So I am most likely going to just pop in the UM-18 as my second sub, but I wish I had a PA-460 laying around just to try out. I don't think adding a MBM in addition to dual subs, which would be a third large box in my main living room, is feasible.

I suppose another option to consider is perhaps upgrading amps someday to one with alot more power which I think might help bass output on the top end, since it seems these high excursion drivers can not only handle a ton of power up top, but require it to get really high output up there.

Part of this dilemma probably comes from attending the recent Pittsburgh G2G at AVS member Raynist's house last weekend. Hearing his JTR speakers with no subs playing resulted in, literally, the most impressive sound on music with kickdrums of all the demos we did that day. The mid bass kick on music was drastically superior compared to the amount of bass my HST-18 was able to provide when crossed at 80 Hz with the speakers.

I suppose that is what has me wondering how things would sound with the HST-18 handling the deeper stuff, and a higher efficiency driver handling the mid bass.
 
See less See more
#2 ·
The PA 460 slams, I love my 2 subs for music, much better than the 2 MFW-15's that were in these cabinets prior to swapping them.
I haven't measured how loud I've played them off my 6k(limited), but they are sensitive, and are really f'n loud.
These aren't even in tuned cabinets, I forget what WinIsd said, but I have way too much port for these in the Micros from what I recall.
I have steep slopes on mine, 48 iirc, like 40-100 or something like that.
I do have to retest/retune in this room, but the room is a work in progress, so I haven't yet.
What I can say, is I liked the sound better than the MFW15 immediately(in my old room-same location/cabinets), and they slam.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
#3 ·
When I was playing drums my bass buddies always had Ampegs with 2x15" paper/ rolled accordion suspension(even 1 guitar player aficionado I played with-his favorite cabinet, most guys used 4x12), and it was nice and clean.
I've read all the stuff about slow/quick bass(they say no such thing I guess), and I think stiffer suspension leads to quicker response.
I have no proof, but I don't think a bass player would do as well with an HST/Comparable surround...of course they play higher than movies as well!
JMO, I'll probably get smashed over the head with a hammer, but that's OK...
I'm pretty sure I know what I hear.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
#4 ·
If kick drum thump is what you want, go with the pa-460's, or something similar. I just did a direct swap of ht-18's to pa-460's, and music has never been punchier.. and these aren't even in the right enclosures. I was always lacking midbass, and I was going to add two more ht18's, but the specs just don't set them up well for midbass, especially in giant low tuned enclosures. The ht-18's were great for low low bass, but with music they were kinda mushy sounding I suppose. They are subs afterall, so expecting them to slam in the mids as well as the lows is a bit much. Anyways, I'm totally happy with these pa-460's.. I'm sitting here with some Gojira jamming away, and the double bass is nice and crisp, I can feel the bass lines in the floor, and it just overall sounds cleaner than this exact same setup with the ht-18's.
 
  • Like
Reactions: LTD02 and muzz
#5 ·
Having multiple HST18's and HT18's, I know exactly what you're going through. Even with absurd output, I feel the 40-80hz isn't quite there with my setup. Hearing Seaton's SubM's multiple times further illustrates this point. It doesn't matter how I've EQ'd or how smooth it looks on a FR graph.

Running my Fusion-15's (Eminence 2515 15", 99db/w) full-range has more of a slam and impact with kick drums -- generally in the 40-80hz range. That said, my next project is a pair of 30hz tuned 6ft^3 using the PA-460's. If that doesn't work, I'm ordering a pair of OS pro's and converting my Marty army to sealed enclosures.
 
#6 ·
I'm guessing the 460's will take care of you if you eq them correctly.
I'm getting slammed in the chest right now and they are >10' away, HP/lp at I believe 40/100.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
#8 ·
OK - I literally just changed my XO from 80hz to 40hz and can confirm it sounds infinitely better for music! WOW
I'm in looooooove all over again!!!!

Get the PA-460. It makes sense in your case. Your amp is limited and I doubt you'll further improve your overall
 
#12 ·
I would consider 2 of the same subs as using different subs with different specs can become an issue to blend frequency responses/get them to work together.
 
#14 ·
If you have the ability to measure, some general understanding on how to integrate subs and much needed elbow grease/time it's not an issue.

I have 4 different drivers in 4 different types of ported enclosures varying in size and tune across 8 subs. They all constructively sum together using mtg90's tutorial and half-days worth of work.

No smoothing.
 
#17 ·
460s all day for music. for movies it's a tough call. on one hand you have the majority of movies that have 30hz plus bass that would benefit from the 460s. The other movies that have ULF would benefit from the higher xmax drivers. at the end of the day its up to you what is most important.

30hz and up is more useful for the average joe who cannot afford enough subwoofer to get both. Once you have 130db capability at 100hz it makes sense to chase the lower frequencies. obviously this is all my opinion.
 
#18 ·
Im really interested to try the PA460 for only $90 but then I would have to wait a bit to get another driver if I wasn't happy with it. Maybe I should consider doing the DIYsoundgroup mbm but I don't know how important placement would be. I would also have to buy another amp; probably inuke1000 dsp


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
#20 · (Edited)
So, it sounds like you're trying to keep the footprint of your subs as small as you can in a living room, and keep budget sane as well. Other than musical midbass, how do you feel about the performance of your single HST and speakers? Have you made measurements of in-room response to know that you don't have a null in your response?



Here's a hypothetical set of models showing UM18 (Blue) and HST18 (Black) in 4CF and 2000W max, PA460 (Green) in 2CF and 1000W max, and Magnum 12 (Red) in .55 CF, 1000W max.





All sealed for simple integration with the existing sub, because the boxes are smaller, and because of where the impedance curves match up. You'll notice that the impedance of the two home theater 18s peak in the 25-45 Hz range, and the two pro style woofers peak above 60 Hz. So when kick drums and bass guitar are thumping along hard, above 60 Hz, the UM/HST coils are heating up and output will be undergoing thermal compression, and adding more power has diminishing returns. On the other hand, the two pro woofers are running cool as cucumbers, and have a fraction of the current flowing through them while generating tons of output.



The PA460s would fit in boxes that are 19x19x16, give or take, and the Magnums in boxes that are 13x13x13, based on a quick ballpark guess. The PA460s run deeper sealed than the Magnums, but the Magnum in a sealed box is so tiny it might just fit the bill, and placement is easier. Either should meet up with the HST well enough. Raise the crossover in your AVR to 120 or 150, and use the new pro woofer subs as MBMs but running off of the LFE channel. I'd still try to build at least a pair of subs with the pro woofers, and place them in the room for good response. And personally, I'd still want to add a second 18 to pair with the HST for smoothing response and more ULF, or upgrade the amp on the HST, or sell the HST and get a pair of UM18s.
 
#23 ·
So, it sounds like you're trying to keep the footprint of your subs as small as you can in a living room, and keep budget sane as well. Other than musical midbass, how do you feel about the performance of your single HST and speakers? Have you made measurements of in-room response to know that you don't have a null in your response?







Here's a hypothetical set of models showing UM18 (Blue) and HST18 (Black) in 4CF and 2000W max, PA460 (Green) in 2CF and 1000W max, and Magnum 12 (Red) in .55 CF, 1000W max.











All sealed for simple integration with the existing sub, because the boxes are smaller, and because of where the impedance curves match up. You'll notice that the impedance of the two home theater 18s peak in the 25-45 Hz range, and the two pro style woofers peak above 60 Hz. So when kick drums and bass guitar are thumping along hard, above 60 Hz, the UM/HST coils are heating up and output will be undergoing thermal compression, and adding more power has diminishing returns. On the other hand, the two pro woofers are running cool as cucumbers, and have a fraction of the current flowing through them while generating tons of output.







The PA460s would fit in boxes that are 19x19x16, give or take, and the Magnums in boxes that are 13x13x13, based on a quick ballpark guess. The PA460s run deeper sealed than the Magnums, but the Magnum in a sealed box is so tiny it might just fit the bill, and placement is easier. Either should meet up with the HST well enough. Raise the crossover in your AVR to 120 or 150, and use the new pro woofer subs as MBMs but running off of the LFE channel. I'd still try to build at least a pair of subs with the pro woofers, and place them in the room for good response. And personally, I'd still want to add a second 18 to pair with the HST for smoothing response and more ULF, or upgrade the amp on the HST, or sell the HST and get a pair of UM18s.

With those graphs I now question my 8-12" infinity build. I have a ton of low bass but the magnum and the PA-460 really pulls ahead like your saying above 60hz. I wonder how 4 of the magnum subs would do compared to my 8 infinitys. Each of my boxes are 7 cubic ft sealed.
 
#21 ·
Awesome info Rhodesj, thanks very much. My most likely route, just because I feel like a known, safe bet, is to simply go with the Dayton UM-18 in my 2nd 4ft^3 sealed box. My in room response is very good with two subs going. Up to now I have had an HST-18 and an HT-18 each on one channel of my Inuke6k. With only the HST-18, there is a pretty good null in my response; the 2nd sub fills this in nicely with minimal eq needed.

Single HST-18 gives 114 dB @20hz with every drop of power the Inuke6k can give driving one channel at 4 ohms. Max output with HST and HT combined @ 20 Hz is 115, but the HT-18 is crapping the bed below 20 Hz at this drive level. So was not really adding to the output down low at all, but greatly improving FR. So, I just sold the HT, hoping the UM-18 would add a couple of dB to the bottom end. Another HST-18, unfortunately, is not in the budget. I feel like I would gain about 4 dB down low if I went with another HST.

I think my biggest issue regarding mid bass is that I have low sensitivity, high excursion drivers, small inexpensive bookshelf mains(Hsu HB1 Mk2, 6.5" drivers, mediocre sensitivity) paired with a $200 AVR with low power. I think everything sounds pretty good up to about -10 or so, but above that I think I am not getting the impact that I should be. By the time I reach reference, the speakers are sounding harsh, compressing, and the subs are dimming the lights with the bass hot.

I think the best overall solution to improve output and sound quality on music would be upgrading to a pair of Fusion 8 speakers from DIYsoundgroup. I would likely only get $2-$250 selling my L&R speakers, so that upgrade is out of budget for a while.

So option 1: Just pop a UM-18 in the 2nd cab and work on getting Fusion 8's when I can
Option 2: UM-18 and work on adding a MBM, either with PA460 or the 12" from DIYsoundgroup that everyone is so impressed with, keep current Hsu bookshelf speakers.
Option 3: PA-460 in 2nd cab, stick with single HST-18 and Hsu bookshelf speakers.
Option 4: Sell HST-18 and use two UM-18's to help fund Fusion 8 upgrade.( I love my HST) I think if the UM-18 can give me a clean 110 @ 20 Hz, this would make sense, since two would hit 116.

Leaning towards option 1 and or 2.

Any opinions on how much mid bass output I would pick up switching from Hsu bookshelves to Fusion 8's?
 
#33 ·
So option 1: Just pop a UM-18 in the 2nd cab and work on getting Fusion 8's when I can
Option 2: UM-18 and work on adding a MBM, either with PA460 or the 12" from DIYsoundgroup that everyone is so impressed with, keep current Hsu bookshelf speakers.
Option 3: PA-460 in 2nd cab, stick with single HST-18 and Hsu bookshelf speakers.
Option 4: Sell HST-18 and use two UM-18's to help fund Fusion 8 upgrade.( I love my HST) I think if the UM-18 can give me a clean 110 @ 20 Hz, this would make sense, since two would hit 116.

Leaning towards option 1 and or 2.

Any opinions on how much mid bass output I would pick up switching from Hsu bookshelves to Fusion 8's?
You talked about the UM18 and the PA460, but have you ever thought of Dayton RSS460HO-4? This is what I run in dual configuration and is probably the best of both worlds. Mid bass is clean and punchy, while still ofer decent ULF. Just my $0.02 ;)
 
#22 ·
My Fusion 10 Pures are pretty bass anemic, that's why I went 460's. I like option 3 as a start, of course the 460 will devastate the HSU''s if not controlled.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
#24 ·
I'm really surprised the Fusion 10's don't have decent bass on music...maybe you have to move up to the 12's before that happens. The 8's would really be pushing the size issue for my room. I'm sure they would have a ton more output than my speakers with the same AVR, just curious if I would get a mid bass improvement with them. I'm quite curious to try the PA-460 but it will prevent me from getting the UM-18 for a month or two if I don't like it. That would not be the end of the world I suppose.
 
#25 ·
Considering you already have an empty cabinet, the 460 is available, and costs just $90, I think it's a no-brainer myself.
If ya don't like it, you can get rid of it and get some $ back.
If midbass is what you seek, I think you'll be pretty happy.
If your cabinet models too big, you can always add wood to take up space.
I lined the Pures with mattress topper, but never added polyfill, now I'm reading it could use some. Doubt I'll go through the hassle now, the 460's I have take care of it NP.

Sent from my XT1575 using Tapatalk
 
#26 · (Edited)
HST-18 vs Dual subs(HST+HT), max output, no eq, smoothed 1/6 for clearer comparison:


As you can see, total output is not much different...1-2 dB, but the HT-18 filled a nasty 10 dB null from 35-60Hz. If I were to get the PA-460, it would go in the 4ft^3 sealed box and not sure if that would be ideal, and it would really need to play very solid down to 35 Hz, which I think would be a bit too low as far as being able to play to reference level to keep up with the HST-18. These sweeps were taken with mains, so the big drop off after 100 Hz is simply the speakers compressing heavily, so the response at lower level doesn't look this bad.

Since I don't think the PA-460 would keep up all the way down to 35 Hz, I think I will go with the UM-18. What I also think I might be able to do is:
Do a close mic eq of each driver to take out the room, and eq the response flat from around 30 Hz to 100 Hz. I think one or two filters would take out the humped response, which would essentially "lift" the 60-100 Hz response. Then, get the two subs dialed in together. In my mind, this will bring the 60-100 Hz response up quite a bit compared to the 40 Hz native peak during calibration.?...? What I see as a big issue is that the speakers are crapping the bed past 100 Hz as they just can't keep up with the subs on the higher level sweeps. I think this is probably a big part of why the mid bass seems weak as I turn things up. I could be wrong, but since my speakers vs. sub capability is so far out of whack, I think the best bet is to save up/come up with some cash, sell my mains, and get some Fusion 8's going. From there, if I still feel something is missing, I'll work on adding the DIYsoundgroup MBM.

Thoughts?

I think these sweeps were with a 100ish Hz crossover, so the subs are actually doing fine up to 100 and the speakers are taking a nose dive in output past 100 Hz. The Fusion 8's should be really solid 80 and up?
 

Attachments

#34 · (Edited)
A couple of things:
1) You don't need a lot of output to fill in your null. For testing purposes, why don't you temporarily try adding a 40hz HPF/6db slope on your ht-18 and limit the voltage? In the bigger 4ft^3 box of yours, I don't see the PA-460 struggling.

2) Even with my Fusion-15's, I'm limited to about ~109db using a Denon X4000 and an 80hz 12' away. Subs+C, no smoothing:


Our goals are a little different, I'm expecting ~120db from 80-200hz. I doubt the f-8's or f-10's will give you the slam you're looking for. In either scenario, we need MBM's for that hit. I'm contemplating on replacing my HT-18's in all 4 nearfield subs (they sit in the middle of the room behind the seats and are in a deep/wide null). Issue with the higher XO's is localization.



I've read some threads where people say Fusion 8s have great midbass. I've read some where people don't. There's lots of variables involved. Some is the person, some is the speaker, and a lot can be the room and setup. Midbass is very susceptible to room issues, more so than other parts of the frequency range in my experience. It's so easy to have cancellations coming from floor or side wall bounce, reflections from the wall behind the speakers, or from behind the listening position. My current mains have a big hole in the 60-70 range that my subs don't, so I had to EQ my subs to fill that in. So I naturally tend to be a little skeptical of anecdotes without measurements. My Continuums have great midbass... on a desk, against a wall in the corner of a room, where there isn't enough distance for cancellations, and instead lots of boundary reinforcement.

On the other hand, when I upgraded my computer sub from a BIC F12 to a Lab15 in a DIYSG ported cube, the Continuums just didn't match up right. The Lab15 with a Dayton SA1000 thundered that BIC into dust, and when I tested out a pair of Volt 10 LXs on the desk instead of the Continuums, the Volts just stole the show. They've got something like a 10 dB sensitivity advantage which was just huge when matching up with the more capable sub.

I don't think I saw which HT18 you had, the D2 or D4. The D4 just isn't a great driver in a small sealed box. I built my two DO sealed subs with four D4s originally, swapped them out for UM18s and am definitely happier with the result. I considered HSTs and UXLs as well, but the HSTs wouldn't fit in my cabinets without heavy modifications due to the depth, and the data-bass measurements didn't show a huge advantage for either HST or UXL, just a couple dB, and that undoubtedly needed more amp than the NU6Ks. IIRC the databass tests were pushing about 3000W vs 2000W into the HST vs the UM. Even if you had an HT18 D2, the UM18 still outperforms it just due to power handling, and makes better use of an NU6K.

I haven't had enough time to play with my UMs either. I've got them set up for movies, EQd to be balanced up top and maximize deep response. They have enough thump to annoy my wife but don't quite slam on music, but the level lights on the two NU6Ks never get very busy on music, so I know I've got a lot more output potential up top that I could tap into.

So with all that said, if you have an empty 4CF cabinet, and a channel on an NU6K, you can't go wrong with a UM18 in there. Not that I'd sell the HST you have either. It's a solid driver and would give you even more output if you ever had funds for a more powerful amp.

The PA460 sealed works well in 2CF, so you could buy two and make a dual opposed 4CF cabinet for them or possibly modify your existing cabinet. They're rated 6mm xmax, and Dayton specs geometric, so I figured usable might be 9mm? More? Less? I'm not really sure, but if 9mm works out, that's basically 18mm displacement for two PA460s in 4CF. That's not far off from the capabilities of an HT18 at 22mm, so two PA460s might be able fill in that bass hole and add a lot up top.

If you can manage it, maybe a good upgrade path would be UM18 now, then Fusion 8s, then add one or two PA460s on an NU3K to fill out midbass, if the HST+UM doesn't do it. And the sealed PA460s would still add a little more ULF as well.
In my case, the cancellation was coming from the front wall - 4.5" of absorbers behind the speakers resolved that. Even with a flat FR in the midbass range, my subs don't have that impact compared to my F-15 towers running full-range. I experimented with a 60hz crossover and kick drums do sound better. Even the Open Range - Shoot Out and the Star Trek - Warp scene, there's a bit more detail and impact.



This sounds best, in terms of snap using a 60hz XO, 1/6


vs 80hz XO


In @bear123's case, the inuke6000's doesn't have enough juice to fully utilize a single HST18. Even in my 11ft^3 ported boxes using the inuke6000's and HST18's, I probably have another ~4-5db by upgrading to a more capable amp. I've done an unscientific test on this. I doubt he'll realize more output by switching to the UM18.

The 2515 is more woofer than subwoofer; the PA460 is larger, has more xmax, and more power handling (300W vs 600W in the model), plus a larger box per your request, so the 460 gives more output if that were the only concern for sub use. As a woofer in a speaker the goals could be rather different.
Thanks a lot man. It looks like I need a third PA-460 to hit my goal.
 

Attachments

#27 ·
The 8s won't give you mid bass. The 10s won't either. The 12s might if you ran them off a separate amp that would allow you to eq in some boost. The UM18 won't do it very well either. The range you're looking for is where your HST and HT are falling off. The PA460 is exactly the type of driver to get that mid bass. It's response is rising in the area you're after. 80-150hz. The magnum is another good mid bass option but it's expensive compared to the 460 but can use a smaller cab.

The fusion 8s will allow you to play loud and clean. I love my fusions but I crossover at 110hz to a horn that can offer up tons of mid bass. I just don't want you thinking the 8s are going to fill this need.
 
#32 ·
@rhodesj - can you please model the Eminence 2515 (http://www.parts-express.com/eminence-deltalite-ii-2515-neo-15-speaker-driver--290-595) in a 4.6ft^3, tuned 38hz vs. a PA-460 6ft^3 tuned 30hz?

Really excited about these PA-460's. I should have them running in a week or two. TIA

The 2515 is more woofer than subwoofer; the PA460 is larger, has more xmax, and more power handling (300W vs 600W in the model), plus a larger box per your request, so the 460 gives more output if that were the only concern for sub use. As a woofer in a speaker the goals could be rather different.
 
#31 ·
I've read some threads where people say Fusion 8s have great midbass. I've read some where people don't. There's lots of variables involved. Some is the person, some is the speaker, and a lot can be the room and setup. Midbass is very susceptible to room issues, more so than other parts of the frequency range in my experience. It's so easy to have cancellations coming from floor or side wall bounce, reflections from the wall behind the speakers, or from behind the listening position. My current mains have a big hole in the 60-70 range that my subs don't, so I had to EQ my subs to fill that in. So I naturally tend to be a little skeptical of anecdotes without measurements. My Continuums have great midbass... on a desk, against a wall in the corner of a room, where there isn't enough distance for cancellations, and instead lots of boundary reinforcement.

On the other hand, when I upgraded my computer sub from a BIC F12 to a Lab15 in a DIYSG ported cube, the Continuums just didn't match up right. The Lab15 with a Dayton SA1000 thundered that BIC into dust, and when I tested out a pair of Volt 10 LXs on the desk instead of the Continuums, the Volts just stole the show. They've got something like a 10 dB sensitivity advantage which was just huge when matching up with the more capable sub.

I don't think I saw which HT18 you had, the D2 or D4. The D4 just isn't a great driver in a small sealed box. I built my two DO sealed subs with four D4s originally, swapped them out for UM18s and am definitely happier with the result. I considered HSTs and UXLs as well, but the HSTs wouldn't fit in my cabinets without heavy modifications due to the depth, and the data-bass measurements didn't show a huge advantage for either HST or UXL, just a couple dB, and that undoubtedly needed more amp than the NU6Ks. IIRC the databass tests were pushing about 3000W vs 2000W into the HST vs the UM. Even if you had an HT18 D2, the UM18 still outperforms it just due to power handling, and makes better use of an NU6K.

I haven't had enough time to play with my UMs either. I've got them set up for movies, EQd to be balanced up top and maximize deep response. They have enough thump to annoy my wife but don't quite slam on music, but the level lights on the two NU6Ks never get very busy on music, so I know I've got a lot more output potential up top that I could tap into.

So with all that said, if you have an empty 4CF cabinet, and a channel on an NU6K, you can't go wrong with a UM18 in there. Not that I'd sell the HST you have either. It's a solid driver and would give you even more output if you ever had funds for a more powerful amp.

The PA460 sealed works well in 2CF, so you could buy two and make a dual opposed 4CF cabinet for them or possibly modify your existing cabinet. They're rated 6mm xmax, and Dayton specs geometric, so I figured usable might be 9mm? More? Less? I'm not really sure, but if 9mm works out, that's basically 18mm displacement for two PA460s in 4CF. That's not far off from the capabilities of an HT18 at 22mm, so two PA460s might be able fill in that bass hole and add a lot up top.

If you can manage it, maybe a good upgrade path would be UM18 now, then Fusion 8s, then add one or two PA460s on an NU3K to fill out midbass, if the HST+UM doesn't do it. And the sealed PA460s would still add a little more ULF as well.
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top