NWCgrad's JBL Pro Active Three-Way Build - Page 23 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #661 of 702 Old 02-07-2017, 03:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 3ll3d00d View Post
an example comparing 4 cycles to 1/6 octave, 2nd pic is the difference between the two (>0 means the 1/6 octave has a greater magnitude)

as to the right value, well that's tricky 1kHz bit is the difference of interest as below that is still just room inducted cruft. You can gradually increase the cycle count to see how the spikes in the FDW view tend towards the octave smoothed view as the cycle count increases but the dips and overall level do not follow suit. ie the octave smoothed view tends to spread out the peaks which fills in the dips and raises the overall level. Hopefully you can see how this is not a good basis for correction.



Thanks for the further examples!!!!

Makes sense that smoothing provides a less than optimal starting get point for equalization.

Today I worked through the steps of the PDF I posted, setting limited EQ for the system based on measurements taken at 33" [the reproducible distance of an aluminum measurement tool]. Measurements were not smoothed for this step. Setting the proper delay was time consuming, but switching the polarity and working for maximizing the null worked well.

I have a ton of measurements to go through. Of course, measurements taken from the listening position do not look near as good due to room influence. I need to put the measurment toys away for awhile and listen to the speakers once again.
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post #662 of 702 Old 02-09-2017, 07:33 AM
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Ive used the moving mic method for months and so far has provided the best results (and very repeatable as well)


because it removes response wrinkles that may only occur at one single point in space.


It is essentially like doing an average of many measurements but averaging thousands of measurments instead of just a handful.


also, my drivers are mostly flat anechoichally so I have stopped boosting any nulls in the listening position response.


http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MM...easurement.pdf
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post #663 of 702 Old 02-10-2017, 08:02 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks for the document.

I just received the email from JBL Pro, the 90x50 midhorn I ordered a few weeks ago will arrive next Wednesday.

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post #664 of 702 Old 02-10-2017, 01:36 PM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
Ive used the moving mic method for months and so far has provided the best results (and very repeatable as well)


because it removes response wrinkles that may only occur at one single point in space.


It is essentially like doing an average of many measurements but averaging thousands of measurments instead of just a handful.


also, my drivers are mostly flat anechoichally so I have stopped boosting any nulls in the listening position response.


http://www.ohl.to/audio/downloads/MM...easurement.pdf
This technique definitely improved my subs. I highly recommend it.
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post #665 of 702 Old 02-11-2017, 02:09 AM
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Thanks for the document.

I just received the email from JBL Pro, the 90x50 midhorn I ordered a few weeks ago will arrive next Wednesday.
Which mid horn model did you order? I like the mid horn used in the 3732. It uses the JBL 165H mid driver. I have often wondered if there are any other mods that would work better than the 165H in that mid horn. I guess the answer to that question would depend on what model high frequency compression driver/horn is used above it, and what the design goals would be.
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post #666 of 702 Old 02-11-2017, 05:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Which mid horn model did you order? I like the mid horn used in the 3732. It uses the JBL 165H mid driver. I have often wondered if there are any other mods that would work better than the 165H in that mid horn. I guess the answer to that question would depend on what model high frequency compression driver/horn is used above it, and what the design goals would be.
I ordered the horn from the PRX735.

The midhorn from the 3732 is the same part number as for the 5732, which uses the 2169H driver that I bought. I think the dual mids would be overkill for home use, so I would go for the midhorn from the 3730 (single driver) and the 2169H driver.

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post #667 of 702 Old 02-11-2017, 09:21 AM - Thread Starter
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@Tip24/96 , attached is a JBL Pro Cinema based speaker that would be awesome for any home usage. I made up a mythical JBL model number based JBL's naming history. Would be a very easy build [more like assembly], as the LF unit is already built.



If I was starting again from scratch this is the route I would take!
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post #668 of 702 Old 02-12-2017, 01:23 AM
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What about my route, not good enough for you. J/K
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post #669 of 702 Old 02-12-2017, 03:46 AM
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If I was starting again from scratch this is the route I would take!
With an active crossover?
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post #670 of 702 Old 02-12-2017, 07:40 AM - Thread Starter
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What about my route, not good enough for you. J/K
You got to admit the route I took and you are taking is much more difficult.

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post #671 of 702 Old 02-12-2017, 07:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
With an active crossover?
Yep, the dbx Venu360. The active settings would be pretty close to those for the 5732, just reduce the output to the midrange and low frequency drivers to offset the loss from using only one driver. Pretty straight forward, matching driver output levels is pretty easy with modern loudspeaker management tools.

For a less expensive solution the Behringer model would work well, for more expensive the Xilica XD-4080 adds FIR filters while retaining the ease of use of professional solutions.

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post #672 of 702 Old 02-12-2017, 11:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NWCgrad View Post
@Tip24/96 , attached is a JBL Pro Cinema based speaker that would be awesome for any home usage. I made up a mythical JBL model number based JBL's naming history. Would be a very easy build [more like assembly], as the LF unit is already built.







If I was starting again from scratch this is the route I would take!


So would this be the same as the 3731 with upgraded components? I've been drooling over the jbl screen arrays and this is the only one that would work in my space. Well this and the 4722.
Noobs like me me though don't have the knowledge or hassle to go active unless it's as easy as the pre setttings on the crown amps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
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post #673 of 702 Old 02-12-2017, 12:58 PM - Thread Starter
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So would this be the same as the 3731 with upgraded components? I've been drooling over the jbl screen arrays and this is the only one that would work in my space. Well this and the 4722.
Noobs like me me though don't have the knowledge or hassle to go active unless it's as easy as the pre setttings on the crown amps


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
It is the LF unit from the 3731, but with a single mid instead of the dual mids in the 4231. It has the mid driver used in the higher power 5000 series.

For simplicity, the 4722 with the upgraded compression driver is nearly impossible to beat. Sound quality is also reported to be excellent.

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post #674 of 702 Old 02-16-2017, 10:54 AM - Thread Starter
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The PRX-735 midhorn finally arrived from JBL Pro. It's a fairly substantial, but will require some ingenuity to get it to mate up to the 22169H driver (different bolt pattern than the stock driver used in the PRX model). No doubt I will figure something out, I have a. PhD in redneck engineering.

Pictures:




Midhorn dimensions: 14-7/8" x 9-7/8" x 4-3/8"

Hopefully the cool bamboo midhorn from @Erich H will arrive so a comparison can occur. As the 2169H driver is an 8" model the bamboo midhorn will require the opening to be reduced from 4.5" x 4.5" to 3.5" x 3.5", I have a plan on how to do that without impacting the horn.
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post #675 of 702 Old 02-16-2017, 10:57 AM
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The bamboo horn was delivered to me on Tuesday, I just need to get a packaging box for it and I'll send it out.

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post #676 of 702 Old 02-16-2017, 11:07 AM - Thread Starter
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The bamboo horn was delivered to me on Tuesday, I just need to get a packaging box for it and I'll send it out.
Wow that was fast!

@chrapladm , the technical manual indicates the driver attaches to the midhorn using 10-32X1,PANHEAD,PH,BLK bolts.

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post #677 of 702 Old 02-16-2017, 09:50 PM
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Ya I tried to find those bolts here and couldnt find them. Then I found a conversion table and tried those. No luck. So I will just order the parts instead of driving everywhere to hopefully get the right parts. Only bad thing is the local JBL dealer says they are out of stock and will take 3 weeks. Whatever I am tried of going everywhere and paying crazy shipping from the USA. SO I will just have to wait. PLUS time has been flying by lately so a few weeks is not that long.
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post #678 of 702 Old 02-22-2017, 01:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Started a new thread for my center channel build, I will add information on the bamboo Midhorn testing in this thread and not the center channel thread.

I am hoping that the 2169H drivers can be made to work well with the Parham horn. JBL doesn't make 10" drivers for horn loading after the development of the CMCD concept (2169H driver + phase plug + 4" PT Midhorn).

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post #679 of 702 Old 03-03-2017, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Or I can untape this and send it your way.....




Arrives tomorrow! Can't wait to see how beautiful they are in real life! Will try the CMCD-82H first, hoping it works well. If not, can measure the NIB Eminence Delta 10's I have in the closet. Good times ahead.....
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post #680 of 702 Old 03-03-2017, 06:21 PM
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We expect the obligatory unboxing video.

High Desert Theater - work in progress
Building Bass - Subs
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post #681 of 702 Old 03-03-2017, 09:02 PM
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It took a while to find a box to ship one of those in. There's a bamboo mounting plate for the 10" woofers but you mentioned that you might be rigging up some type of mount for different woofer experiments, so I didn't send that. If you end up needing it just let me know. I don't think it would've fit in the same box anyway without a little worry on how to package it in the horn without damage.

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post #682 of 702 Old 03-05-2017, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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The horn arrived safe and sound, not surprising with Erich's mad packing skills.






Now I need to work on the backplate. If the CMCD-82H doesn't do well I may have to hit Erich up for the bamboo backplate!
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The ottoman full of XO parts, LOVE IT.
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post #684 of 702 Old 03-06-2017, 03:15 PM - Thread Starter
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The ottoman full of XO parts, LOVE IT.
Busy designing an XO for my center channel (seperately thread) and for the HF/MF section so my dbx Venu360 can control all three front speakers.

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post #685 of 702 Old 03-07-2017, 02:10 AM
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Is rhe CMCD-82H a much better mid driver than the 2169H? Are you going to experiment with both of them on both the bamboo and JBL mid horns?

This might be a purely subjective question, but, what do you guys consider to be the best high efficiency 10" mid driver available on the market today? (is: one that would work in the horns mentioned here in a 3-way setup)

Would it be the AE TD10M? Or the CMCD-82H? Something from Eminense? Or something from Beyma, BMS, B&C, JBL, or even Scan Speak and Acuton?
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post #686 of 702 Old 03-07-2017, 02:33 AM
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There are so many 10's out there that, I feel, can sound great with other drivers. I think having quality drivers is a start but the final product is more important. Horn loaded 10's arent necessarily the best drivers but work for a horn applications.

Asking which 10's do we feel are the best would be a new thread. AND I feel it doesnt really matter what is the best 10. You need to hear the 10 before it matters. Some people dont like AE and some dont like JBL. So if someone is after the best drivers in whatever size I would suggest doing your own research and buying 3-4 drivers to test all at once.
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Is rhe CMCD-82H a much better mid driver than the 2169H?
The "CMCD-82H" IS "2169H". CMCD-XXx is used when the chosen driver is used in a horn and with a small back chamber and phase plug which makes it into a large compression driver of sorts. Same thing goes for the CMCD-61H which uses the 165h 6.5" driver.

2169 is also an 8", not 10".
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post #688 of 702 Old 03-11-2017, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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I assembled on of the modified PD612/95 XO's where I removed notch filters, impedance equalization circuits, and contour networks as I will better handle those function with the dbx Venu360.

XO Schematic:


I measured the HF and MF drivers on axis at a mic distance of 3" (width of the guide I use to reproducibly set the mic height). Signal chain was computer - USB audio interface - AudioSource Amp 1 - XO - Speaker, no processing was used.

Raw measurements (HF - 5 msec gating; MF - No smoothing or gating):


Auto PEQ calculations using REW, with the following: Target Level 101.1 dB (for both HF and MF); Flatness Target 1 dB (for both HF and MF); EQ Devise: FBQ2496 (dbx Venu360 is not an option)


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I assembled on of the modified PD612/95 XO's where I removed notch filters, impedance equalization circuits, and contour networks as I will better handle those function with the dbx Venu360.
Looks good. You don't want to use the Venu360 for the crossover function? I have read some things that would indicate that some of the benefits of an active system derive from removing the passive components from the signal chain.
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post #690 of 702 Old 03-11-2017, 02:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Looks good. You don't want to use the Venu360 for the crossover function? I have read some things that would indicate that some of the benefits of an active system derive from removing the passive components from the signal chain.
I keep waffling, I am running all active right now with the Venu360 with great results. However, I got a wild hairbrained idea to build a center channel speaker, another three-way, and due to lack of available amplification channels it needs to be ran as a two-way (active LF, XO for HF/MF). While designing and testing the XO for the center I thought it may be a good idea to use a similar approach for my mains. By doing so it frees up two outputs on the venu360, so all three front speakers could be ran off the one 3 in, 6 out processor.

Not sure if it's a good idea, I could also run the three HF/MF units off the venu360 and the three LF units off my Peavey VSX 26.

Now that I am nearly done with the passive design and testing I should at least try them out to see how they sound.

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