Official JBL CS1214 thread - Replacement for Infinity 1260/1262 - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 322 Old 08-17-2016, 11:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the motor strength is a little on the weak side for a smallish ported cab. given the low price of the drivers, I'd suggest just doubling up and going sealed. so why not go for larger ported? the price of the wood is almost the same as the price of the drivers, yet doubling up the drivers also gives an increase in the upper end spl.
@LTD02

He is NOT trying to crack the drywall like most of us here...... he thinks that my two 460HO full Martys are "insane" for the space I have. He has very limited space at his place.

So are you suggesting 2 woofers in the 1.5 -1.7 box or a diff size?

Thanks
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post #32 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 05:55 AM
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Help getting started

Hello All,

I am new to the forum and couldn't resist buying (4) of these at around $30 each. I am not completely new to building sub enclosures and back in the day (early 90's) built many, but then life got into the way and I haven't really done anything audio-wise in lot of years.

Having said all that I am reaching out to you guys for advice to get started. My plan is to build four sealed boxes spread out in my room and probably purchase a iNuke ?k with DSP.

I did a quick model model with WinISD using a Qtc of about .7 which came out to a net internal volume of 3.5 CF. This about double the size of what some other people are doing.

What are some of your thoughts on optimum box sizing?

Regards..
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post #33 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
the motor strength is a little on the weak side for a smallish ported cab. given the low price of the drivers, I'd suggest just doubling up and going sealed. so why not go for larger ported? the price of the wood is almost the same as the price of the drivers, yet doubling up the drivers also gives an increase in the upper end spl.
IMHO, they would be a decent driver for sealed boxes for nearfield and car audio. Once you start talking 6 to 7 cubic foot boxes for ported, the space, cost of wood VS available SPL tends to overshadow the low price.

For the 300 watt plate amp/one sheet of plywood DIY sub market, the CS1214 ported really does not make sense. The JBL GT5-15 would work better ported. The 2" VC coupled with 14.5mm of Xmax reminds me of my GTO 1214 with the same specs. Did a quick and dirty model of the GT5-15 in a 6.5 cubic foot box and although not perfect, it does 20Hz without issue and costs $70.

The CS1214 is great for the price when used in multiples, but for a sub or two it would be better to look at something else. It is quite the stretch to call something with a smaller voice coil, less Xmax, less power handling, weaker motor, higher Fs, thinner/lighter frame, no DVC option, much larger box for ported and that garish 1000 WATTS on the dust cap a "replacement" for the 1260/1262.

A great option for sealed, not so much ported. Oh well, at least Harmon offered an option after they canned the 1260/1262. I'll be building a sub or two next summer, looking at the GT5-15 and Alpine SWS-15 and leaning towards the latter. The GTO 1214 will go nearfield so I'll watch to see what Harmon does in the next 10 months.
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post #34 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 09:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
A great option for sealed, not so much ported. Oh well, at least Harmon offered an option after they canned the 1260/1262. I'll be building a sub or two next summer, looking at the GT5-15 and Alpine SWS-15 and leaning towards the latter. The GTO 1214 will go nearfield so I'll watch to see what Harmon does in the next 10 months.
The GT5-15 also works well in IB.
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post #35 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 10:01 AM
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The GT5-15 also works well in IB.
Good to know, thanks!

Five years ago I picked up the GTO 1214 since it worked sealed, ported, bandpass and horn loaded--options are nice. Alas, it went out of production so it will become near field and tuned to 21 Hz with a passive radiator.

The Alpine SWS-15 in a 6.5 cf ported box at around a 18 to 19Hz tune looks decent. That is about the max size my wife will put up with--or she thinks she will.

My inner crazy always whispers the lilMike Lilwrecker 17Hz tapped horn--just in case I get tired of the ported box. Mount them above the ceiling and use a vent to get the output into the room sort of thing. Oddly enough, my wife is fine with that--she likes deep bass but hates big boxes so my sub build will also require drivers I can horn load.

Eventuaally my wife will tire of 8 cubic foot external boxes in the living room--give it a year and I'll get a green light to replace the ported boxes with horn loaded monsters mounted in the ceiling. All part of the chess game called subbage...
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post #36 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 03:52 PM - Thread Starter
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@18Hurts
I agree with you and LTD02 that these make much more sense sealed rather than ported. Maybe I should point that out in the first post. But I still think this is the closest alternative we currently have based on the price and how louder they get from the infinity 1260 in a sealed enclosure, hence the "replacement" part. I too am looking forward to the iclops testing so we can get a better idea what this is capable of.


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post #37 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 05:02 PM
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If it's going behind an AT screen/false wall, is there any reason not to make a ported one out of a $15 sheet of OSB? (If it has any advantage over sealed on the low end down to tune, and SPL increase)
It would be around $50 for the sub, wood, and extras for the entire thing.

Last edited by iconrl; 08-19-2016 at 01:15 PM. Reason: rephrase
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post #38 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 05:27 PM
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I think they would be great as garage subs

Get some cheap pine plywood build an 8 foot tall box and stuff six of them in each box. Wire them 3S/2P for 6 ohms each box and throw in a few Wal-Mart pillows. If you have an old iNuke 6000 DSP... that would be around 1,200 to 1,500 watts or so into 6 ohms and enough to get the village up and arms with torches protesting you. $360 for a dozen...two or three sheets of ply and use up that old paint before it goes bad.

Just make sure the pair fits in the back of a pickup truck--throw that old automotive amp on the pair out in the woods... they have party subs written all over them. Call them the dirty dozen...
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post #39 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 05:51 PM
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Still putting 2 of these in a ported box (regardless of wood cost) would maximize "bang for the buck", wouldn't it?
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post #40 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 07:09 PM
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Originally Posted by nnoble83 View Post
Still putting 2 of these in a ported box (regardless of wood cost) would maximize "bang for the buck", wouldn't it?




Absolutely....I’ve been building subwoofer enclosures for over 20 years and I have to say that a properly built ported enclosure will yield more output than a sealed enclosure with the same amount of power.... keep in mind that in most cases you give up space to accomplish this and the tuning frequency is important. I do love the sound of a sealed enclosure tho especially when you have a lot of subs

I use this formula when deciding what type of enclosure to use and I'm rarely disappointed in the results......


Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP)


Efficiency Bandwidth Product (EBP) is a number which shows the trade-off between efficiency and bandwidth of a driver. It is useful in determining if a driver is suited for a sealed or vented box and is also used to determine suitability for horn loading.

EBP = fs / Qes

As a general rule:

EBP < 50 - use only for a sealed box
EBP 50 - 100 - can be used in either
EBP > 100 - vented box only

Given this formula the above with the JBL CS1214...... FS = 28/.57 = 49.1 EBP

Last edited by HzDownLow; 08-18-2016 at 09:10 PM.
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post #41 of 322 Old 08-18-2016, 07:25 PM
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I went sealed with my 1260's because I knew I was going to buy an inuke3000 dsp and I wanted to use all of its power and all of the excursion the 4 subs.
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post #42 of 322 Old 08-19-2016, 08:21 AM
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Would these work well sealed near field to add to the lower frequencies I'm missing with my martycubes? I'd like to get output down to 10Hz, but space is quite limited.


I'd like to add 6 behind my seating powered by 1 channel of my iNuke 6000 and will likely limit them to only play lower frequencies, although that is easy to change.

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post #43 of 322 Old 08-19-2016, 09:08 PM
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Pull it!


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I did. Four on the way. smh. I don't have a use for them other than HT if I can ever get boxes built.

I have 4 1260s, 2 of which ended up in my car. Boy do they pound!
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post #44 of 322 Old 08-20-2016, 12:10 AM
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Official JBL CS1214 thread - Replacement for Infinity 1260/1262

One thought comes to mind with these is how do these compare to the PA460. We all have seen the graphs for it but if you take three of the JBL's vs one Dayton Pa460 how would they do? 35$ each times 3 of them is 105$ which is just over the cost of the Dayton sub and the box size is now almost the same size now compared to one Pa460. Now double what I just wrote and I wonder what would we have.
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post #45 of 322 Old 08-20-2016, 12:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Michael Mitten View Post
I did. Four on the way. smh. I don't have a use for them other than HT if I can ever get boxes built.

I have 4 1260s, 2 of which ended up in my car. Boy do they pound!


Good choice!


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post #46 of 322 Old 08-20-2016, 01:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by SageFly View Post
Would these work well sealed near field to add to the lower frequencies I'm missing with my martycubes? I'd like to get output down to 10Hz, but space is quite limited.


I'd like to add 6 behind my seating powered by 1 channel of my iNuke 6000 and will likely limit them to only play lower frequencies, although that is easy to change.
Well you would add something and based on what I read is that you may even not need your martycubes after that as these will have much higher spl due to the nearfield location. But I would not suggest building these nearfiled to add output below 20hz as you already have your cubes and the difference will mostly be in the tactile feedback and some spl below the 20hz tuning frequency of the cube.

Based on the equal loudness chart you probably won't hear much difference below 20hz. But you will add the tactile feedback. You probably need much larger and powerful drivers to achieve frequencies that low at a meaningful level.

I may be wrong though and someone more experienced like @eng-399 will probably have more to say.
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post #47 of 322 Old 08-20-2016, 01:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
One thought comes to mind with these is how do these compare to the PA460. We all have seen the graphs for it but if you take three of the JBL's vs one Dayton Pa460 how would they do? 35$ each times 3 of them is 105$ which is just over the cost of the Dayton sub and the box size is now almost the same size now compared to one Pa460. Now double what I just wrote and I wonder what would we have.
I smell another test after the i-clops :P

Are you suggesting a comparison between sealed, ported or a combination of configurations? Because data suggests that 4 JBLs beat even a UM-18 in a sealed configuration.

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post #48 of 322 Old 08-20-2016, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
One thought comes to mind with these is how do these compare to the PA460. We all have seen the graphs for it but if you take three of the JBL's vs one Dayton Pa460 how would they do? 35$ each times 3 of them is 105$ which is just over the cost of the Dayton sub and the box size is now almost the same size now compared to one Pa460. Now double what I just wrote and I wonder what would we have.
3x CS1214 in ~6cuft sealed > 1 PA460 ~6cuft ported by 1-3dB at the bottom and top end and about 6dB in the middle of the range. However that's with 6x the power going to the JBL's vs. the single Dayton driver.
Also 3 drivers is an odd load to drive, need two on one channel and one on another.

Two of the JBL's sealed in 3-4cuft should just about equal one PA460 ported with the JBL's having a bit more output between 35-70hz and the Dayton edging them out above 80 and a little below 30 to roughly 17hz (when tuned to 20hz). But again that's with the two JBL's getting about 4x the amp power of the single Dayton.

If the two JBL's were placed in a ported cabinet about the same size as the VBSS enclosure they should have about a 3-5dB advantage on everything below about 60hz. I thought of building something like this for the two I bought to try out, but I am not sure what I'd do with it.
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post #49 of 322 Old 08-20-2016, 12:44 PM
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Thanks Matt ya 3 subs would need to be ran into 2 channels of the amp I was thinking out loud when typing that. I was wondering how these would compare. The nice thing about the Pa460's is that you can run many off of one amp.
I have the same problem where can I put more subs in my room... Thanks for clarifying both subs on how each sub benefits in a certain fq range. I think everyone wanted to know this along with me.
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post #50 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 06:59 AM
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How many of these would it take to stack up to a single HS 24?
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post #51 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 07:27 AM
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Awesome, so pleased I stumbled across this thread. Had two 1260's nearfield which worked nicely but stupidly sold them.

I would think 4 of these sealed running the length of the sofa would make a pretty good NF option and include everyone on the sofa . Have a spare channel sat there on my inuke6000. So what's the verdict on ideal sizes, I had the 1260's in approx 1.25-1.5 cuft each. I assume these would work fine in that too so something around 5-6 cuft? I could go a bit bigger if necessary. Just need to check prices this side of the pond.

edit £45 each over here so all systems go
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post #52 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by edzyy View Post
How many of these would it take to stack up to a single HS 24?

It depends on what you mean by "stack up to."

If you mean low frequencies (20 hz and below), not going to happen.....
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post #53 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 11:28 AM
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It depends on what you mean by "stack up to."

If you mean low frequencies (20 hz and below), not going to happen.....
The CS1214 is a 12" driver, and the HS24 is 24". So I guess it would be twice as wide and twice as tall, so 4 drivers? Looks like the HS24 is deeper too, so maybe 8 JBLs in sealed boxes would match the size of 1 HS24 in a box

Seriously, what zeus said is probably right, even though you could buy roughly 40 JBLs for the same price, building boxes, powering them all, and then having the space in your room are all factors. And then I'm still not too sure how close the low end would be.
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post #54 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 11:37 AM
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Originally Posted by iconrl View Post
The CS1214 is a 12" driver, and the HS24 is 24". So I guess it would be twice as wide and twice as tall, so 4 drivers? Looks like the HS24 is deeper too, so maybe 8 JBLs in sealed boxes would match the size of 1 HS24 in a box

Seriously, what zeus said is probably right, even though you could buy roughly 40 JBLs for the same price, building boxes, powering them all, and then having the space in your room are all factors. And then I'm still not too sure how close the low end would be.
Calculate the volume of air a 24" each driver can move per stroke (VD) and figure out how many of the cs1214 it would take to best it. Vd = Sd*Xmax

The SI 24" moves about 8 liters, the cs1214 moves .88 liters (if my math is right..assume 16mm xmax for the cs1214) so you'd need about 9 of them to barely best it..

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post #55 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 11:45 AM
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Calculate the volume of air a 24" each driver can move per stroke (VD) and figure out how many of the cs1214 it would take to best it. Vd = Sd*Xmax
The original question was how many to "stack up" against the hs24. That's why I was jokingly doing a size comparison.

I am still interesting in hearing how they sound in the i-clops. Hoping (maybe in vain) for some decent results.
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post #56 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 11:50 AM
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4 arriving tomorrow. Seems they are in short supply in most places here. Shame the summer hols are getting in the way otherwise would have got going building a simple box straight away.
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post #57 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 02:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Official JBL CS1214 thread - Replacement for Infinity 1260/1262

I also had the same question and based on the data-bass test, 8x JBLs driven safely should match an HS24, at least on paper. The following JBL measurements don't take the inuke 10hz HP filter into consideration. 6db were also added to the hs24 as these measurements are done at 2 meters instead of one.



HS24 CEA-2010 Max Burst (data-bass) vs 8xJBL, xmax@10hz, 2750w total, 14 cf box (WinISD)



10hz: HS24 - 104.2 db 8xJBL - 103 db

20hz: HS24 - 123 db 8xJBL - 115.2 db

30hz: HS24 - 132 db 8xJBL - 121.6 db

40hz: HS24 - 134.1 db 8xJBL - 125.3 db

50hz: HS24 - 134.9 db 8xJBL - 127.3 db

60hz: HS24 - 135.2 db 8xJBL - 128.3 db

70hz: HS24 - 135.5 db 8xJBL - 128.9 db

80hz: HS24 - 135.9 db 8xJBL - 129.2 db



HS24 sealed Maximum Long Term (data-bass) vs 8x JBL sealed, xmax@10hz, 2750w total, 14 cf box (WinISD)



10hz: HS24 - 108 db 8xJBL - 103 db

20hz: HS24 - 122.5 db 8xJBL - 115.2 db

30hz: HS24 - 127.3 db 8xJBL - 121.6 db

40hz: HS24 - 126.2 db 8xJBL - 125.3 db

50hz: HS24 - 125.9 db 8xJBL - 127.3 db

60hz: HS24 - 125.4 db 8xJBL - 128.3 db

70hz: HS24 - 124.8 db 8xJBL - 128.9 db

80hz: HS24 - 125.5db 8xJBL - 129.2 db



Although I don't have a calibrated SPL meter, I should have 8x JBLs running next week and can give you some REW measurements. I am sorry for the delay but it is holiday season and wood workers are all closed. The inuke 6k dsp should arrive tomorrow.

Edit: forgot that the databass measurements are done at 2 meters instead of one. Added the missing 6db. I am not really sure how the jbl could stand up against the hs24 now. I am sorry for the confusion.
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post #58 of 322 Old 08-25-2016, 02:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by markymiles View Post
Awesome, so pleased I stumbled across this thread. Had two 1260's nearfield which worked nicely but stupidly sold them.

I would think 4 of these sealed running the length of the sofa would make a pretty good NF option and include everyone on the sofa . Have a spare channel sat there on my inuke6000. So what's the verdict on ideal sizes, I had the 1260's in approx 1.25-1.5 cuft each. I assume these would work fine in that too so something around 5-6 cuft? I could go a bit bigger if necessary. Just need to check prices this side of the pond.

edit £45 each over here so all systems go
I am sorry to hear that you sold those 1260's :P

I find that 1.7cf should do fine for nearfield at max wattage (that's what I am planning to use), although even 1.5 could work based on the tests so far.
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post #59 of 322 Old 08-26-2016, 01:06 AM
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I am sorry to hear that you sold those 1260's :P

I find that 1.7cf should do fine for nearfield at max wattage (that's what I am planning to use), although even 1.5 could work based on the tests so far.
Great I'll aim for 1.7cf then. Do we know roughly what the driver volume is?

Going through the various build threads seems most people have them in their own sealed chamber, is there a reason for this? I was thinking to just have window braces between each driver along the width of the box.
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post #60 of 322 Old 08-26-2016, 07:50 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by markymiles View Post
Great I'll aim for 1.7cf then. Do we know roughly what the driver volume is?



Going through the various build threads seems most people have them in their own sealed chamber, is there a reason for this? I was thinking to just have window braces between each driver along the width of the box.


If you have 4 of these jbl's then your box size would be 6.8 cubic ft in one box. You don't need anything dividing these subs up. Just install your window bracing inside like your saying and you will be good. There's no need to have separate chambers for each sub in a sealed box. Don't forget to stuff the box with r-13,polyfill,denim what ever you have available.
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1260 , 1262 , cs1214 , Infinity , Jbl

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