New DIYSG speakers: HTM-12 and HTM-10 - Page 7 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #181 of 210 Old 12-24-2016, 06:06 AM
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Originally Posted by mpa4712 View Post
I wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the 1099 above your TV. I've got a 70" LCD mounted pretty high as it is. Think the wife would notice if I swapped out the Acoustech PL-28II with the 1099 ?

If I can find one I'll share.

I have a 65" but I keep it low near eye level. I can't stand TVs mounted high. Hurts my neck.
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post #182 of 210 Old 12-24-2016, 03:06 PM
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These seem to be friendly to niche/baffle wall build-ins, too. What's the feeling between Matt and Eric about how HTM-12 L/R mains may perform with the 88 Special as the center? I don't think I'd sacrifice the output capability of the 88 Special to fit an HTM-10 in a center niche the height that will fit the 88 Special, but not the HTM-12...just to gain matched voicing...presuming the voicing of the HTM-12 and HTM-10 are closer than the HTM-12 to the 88 Special.

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post #183 of 210 Old 12-24-2016, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
These seem to be friendly to niche/baffle wall build-ins, too. What's the feeling between Matt and Eric about how HTM-12 L/R mains may perform with the 88 Special as the center? I don't think I'd sacrifice the output capability of the 88 Special to fit an HTM-10 in a center niche the height that will fit the 88 Special, but not the HTM-12...just to gain matched voicing...presuming the voicing of the HTM-12 and HTM-10 are closer than the HTM-12 to the 88 Special.
Id be curious to hear about that too. I'm looking at either the HTM10 or 12s for my LR. I'm on the fence about what to use as a center. I'm looking at the 88 special, the 893, and MAYBE the 1099. How would either of those center options fit in. How does the HTM-10 stack up against the 88 special?
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post #184 of 210 Old 12-26-2016, 11:04 AM
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Dispersion/Coverage below 600Hz?

Given Matt's comments on polar accuracy below 600Hz for the HTM-12 as "not great," it begs the question of dispersion/coverage in the mid-ranges. One might expect it to be similar to the Fusion 15...which is a bit interesting looking below 500 Hz. I don't have actual listening experience with the F15, so it's hard to predict. Anybody with any experience evaluating dispersion/coverage below the crossover yet?
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post #185 of 210 Old 12-26-2016, 01:09 PM
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The polar graph probably shows a bit more directivity control at lower frequencies then there really is due to gating in the measurement. But know that below about 800hz there is little change in response within the +- 45degree listening window. Cabinet diffraction does play a bit of a roll above 500hz up the crossover but those differences really only show up as you get closer 90 degrees off axis and whose listing at those angles.
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post #186 of 210 Old 12-26-2016, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mtg90 View Post
The polar graph probably shows a bit more directivity control at lower frequencies then there really is due to gating in the measurement. But know that below about 800hz there is little change in response within the +- 45degree listening window. Cabinet diffraction does play a bit of a roll above 500hz up the crossover but those differences really only show up as you get closer 90 degrees off axis and whose listing at those angles.
Thanks for the response, Matt. The FR and polar look as though things are very smooth and tame around the crossover, too.

I commented at length about DIYSG/SEOS speakers in my response to an OP asking about toe-in. How bad of an idea is it to NOT toe in... What the title of the post doesn't reveal is that he is planning a niche installation. I directed him to my posts on my 88 Special build where I comment on such an installation which is similar to mine. I think I saw here or on your site that you thought that a baffle wall installation was a good performance enhancement for the HTM (or was it just one of them). Correct?

I see another member asked for a recommendation for a center with an HTM. The same LCRs are always a benefit if they fit. I built the 88 because it was the model that could deliver the most bang for the niche I had to fit (as the room is large, and throw is 15'). I've been so pleased with the 88 (and Volt-10LXs), I'm keen on trying the HTM-12 for L/R main. They fit the L/R niches I have, and I bet they will work very well with the 88 with its 360 CD. What say you?
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post #187 of 210 Old 12-27-2016, 09:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Cam Man View Post
I commented at length about DIYSG/SEOS speakers in my response to an OP asking about toe-in. How bad of an idea is it to NOT toe in... What the title of the post doesn't reveal is that he is planning a niche installation. I directed him to my posts on my 88 Special build where I comment on such an installation which is similar to mine. I think I saw here or on your site that you thought that a baffle wall installation was a good performance enhancement for the HTM (or was it just one of them). Correct?
I'm not entirely sure what a 'niche' is? Though I wasn't going to install them in a baffle wall. Just in a cabinet like a dresser kind of thing that wasn't part of the wall at all.
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post #188 of 210 Old 12-27-2016, 10:28 PM
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I'm not entirely sure what a 'niche' is? Though I wasn't going to install them in a baffle wall. Just in a cabinet like a dresser kind of thing that wasn't part of the wall at all.
Here is a niche, notice my LR in them?

I've attached an image this time.

I'd really like to try the HTM-12s, but my niches are too small (height-wise) and I can't have speakers on the floor because my wife hates me.
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post #189 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 12:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpa4712 View Post
Here is a niche, notice my LR in them?



I'd really like to try the HTM-12s, but my niches are too small (height-wise) and I can't have speakers on the floor because my wife hates me.
I can't see the image but when I quote your post it looks like you're trying to link an image from your Google account or something. Unfortunately you can't link images like that, need to use something like Imgur or add it to the post as an attachment.
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post #190 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 12:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
I can't see the image but when I quote your post it looks like you're trying to link an image from your Google account or something. Unfortunately you can't link images like that, need to use something like Imgur or add it to the post as an attachment.
I wish google would just give me the option to link directly to an image...

I've uploaded it this time.
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post #191 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 12:54 AM
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Originally Posted by mpa4712 View Post
I wish google would just give me the option to link directly to an image...

I've uploaded it this time.
I see now, thank you.

That almost looks like it would be considered the same as been flush/baffle wall. This isn't what I intend to do, instead what I am planning on building is something like this:



Or rather, more like this:



Albeit, the actual F15/HTM12/F15 combo will be properly built into the cabinet (correctly dimentioned of course).
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post #192 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 01:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
I see now, thank you.

That almost looks like it would be considered the same as been flush/baffle wall. This isn't what I intend to do, instead what I am planning on building is something like this:



Or rather, more like this:



Albeit, the actual F15/HTM12/F15 combo will be properly built into the cabinet (correctly dimentioned of course).
My immediate reaction to that is if you have room for a piece of furniture big enough to house these speakers, why not just wall-mount the TV/screen and put the speakers on the floor/stands? Are you being forced to hide them for WAF?
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post #193 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 05:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LondonBenji View Post
I'm not entirely sure what a 'niche' is? Though I wasn't going to install them in a baffle wall. Just in a cabinet like a dresser kind of thing that wasn't part of the wall at all.
Niche: "a shallow recess, especially one in a wall to display a statue or other ornament." In our applications, a speaker. What I have tried to impart to you is, whether it is a niche in a wall (a baffle wall is essentially a niche opening) or a compartment in furniture into which you are placing a speaker, you can really hamstring the speaker if the front of its baffle sits deeper than the front of the edges of the opening due to refraction effects. Niches can be compartments in a larger wall structure that function acoustically like a baffle wall...as in this design. Cam Man's Media Great Room Obviously, a speaker sitting in furniture will not have the acoustic reinforcement of a baffle wall that a niche can provide. Either way, positioning the speaker deeper into the compartment, whatever it is, will be bad for the speaker's performance. Keeping it flush with the front edge will overcome most of that.
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post #194 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 07:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mpa4712 View Post
My immediate reaction to that is if you have room for a piece of furniture big enough to house these speakers, why not just wall-mount the TV/screen and put the speakers on the floor/stands? Are you being forced to hide them for WAF?
Or my thought was if you're going to custom build the piece anyway, why not buid for a 3rd Fusion 15? Might as well match identically if you can.

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post #195 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 07:47 AM
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@LondonBenji, are you planning on aiming the CD to ear height at listening position unlike the one that is shown in your sample photos? I haven't seen vertical polar plots of the F15 or HTM and I've seen lots of recommendations to either have it ear height or aimed properly.
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post #196 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by ja00 View Post
@LondonBenji, are you planning on aiming the CD to ear height at listening position unlike the one that is shown in your sample photos? I haven't seen vertical polar plots of the F15 or HTM and I've seen lots of recommendations to either have it ear height or aimed properly.
I was quite surprised how forgiving the SEOS 15 is vertically. I initially aimed my 88-Special downward a bit from within its niche. That created more problems than it solved. I placed the speaker with the waveguide on the bottom, no tilt, and flush with the wall, and that put the MLP row at 15' comfortably within the vertical window. Of course positioning close to the floor induces acoustic coupling with the floor, but that is easily corrected with Audyssey and other EQ. No EQ can fix the comb filtering and damage to depth that edge refractions cause.
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post #197 of 210 Old 12-28-2016, 02:03 PM
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@Cam Man @OJ Bartley @ja00 I don't want to mess up this thread but I appreciate your advice, so I'll answer these ones back over in my original thread if you don't mind!

How bad of an idea is it to NOT toe in...
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post #198 of 210 Old 01-02-2017, 01:25 PM
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HTM-12s Ordered

It's finally "Arizona Winter" so the garage is cool...so it must be speaker building time.

The number of DIYSG speakers continues to grow in my system as I just ordered a pair of HTM-12s as L/R mains to join the 88 Special center (now a year old). There is pretty good data/info out here on these by Matt and Eric. Several things pushed me to the decision:

1. With experience comes comfort. Having built the 88 and six Volt-10LXs now, I'm comfortable with flat pack assembly.
2. Assembled crossover availability. I'm also quite comfortable with crossover assembly as long as there is a PCB for it/them, but this is a welcomed option.
3. The HTM fits my room and design. Large room, niche/baffle wall installation. Reasonable re-working of the niche/compartment needed.
4. The DIYSG designs seem to perform exceptionally well with bass management crossing them above their LF limit. I've noticed that these designs may well reach their LF end working at full-range, but...working with a high pass filter to utilize bass management they sound infinitely better than speakers with LF extending only to 80Hz or so. An example is the Volt-10LX sealed rated at 70Hz sounds amazingly strong and comfortable at 70Hz or 80Hz. I'm confident the HTM-12 will be the same; comfortable. In the baffle wall and with room correction EQ, they will be superb. By the way, the locations in my system for the L/R mains are proven poor for LF below 60Hz due to a large acoustic node at about 45Hz, therefore generating output below 60Hz in the L/R mains is a waste of watts, space, and money. The subs (located a couple feet away in locations friendly to smooth LF acoustic response) take over very well. The HTM-12s have the output capability for Reference I need, especially high passed at 70Hz or 80Hz in a baffle wall.
5. The smooth FR and polar provided by Matt.
6. Matt's description of the mids and highs afforded in this new design. That said, I'm expecting a harmonious blend with the 88 Special DNA-360.
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post #199 of 210 Old 01-28-2017, 05:34 AM
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I have been thinking hard on purchasing the HTM-10 or HTM-12 as well as the Klipsch Heresy III. Can
anyone compare them I've really gotten into 2 channel again but still watch a fair share of movies it's probably 50/50. I also have dual SB13 Ultra subs so the low end is covered. I can get three Heresy III'S for $1950 brand new but they still would almost be double the cost of the HTM-10 or 12's. Any help would be great.

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post #200 of 210 Old 02-07-2017, 08:14 PM
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Can the HTM-12 (or htm-10) be used without an enclosed chamber for this compression driver? How does the SEOS wave guide hold up without additional baffle to transition to around the edge?

I am thinking of building the HTM-12 with the wave guide held up without a sealed cabinet and surrounding front baffle to make it as narrow as possible. (kind of like the Titan - can make sure the woofer and SEOS are in the same plane). The woofer would of course be in a sealed cabinet of correct volume and same distance from center of the SEOS. (though a bit narrower in this case than the original design).

The design would be the HTM-12, but with the width minimized as possible and the depth minimized also. I have as much height as needed, especially if the woofer is flipped to be over the horn.

My ceiling is only 7' so the speaker flipped should not make much difference? These Left and Right speakers would be within a foot of sidewalls... Maybe also in a new baffle wall...

In my small room the Titan just seems to be several times overkill.
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post #201 of 210 Old 04-11-2017, 01:37 PM
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If you will forgive a newbie's questions . . .

The HTM-12 looks great for what I have in mind for the L/C/R in my theater behind an AT screen. However, every third day or so, I start doubting and wonder if I should take the easy way out and call Power Sound Audio to buy front speakers instead. From a performance perspective (rather than cost/pride of building it), should I expect the HTM-12s to outperform well respected speakers like those from PSA?

Also, are there shallower depth, wall mountable surrounds (and on-ceiling for Atmos) that use the same or similar tweeter and wave guide design? I've read many good things about the Volts. But they are an entirely different design, so I worry about how they'll blend.

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post #202 of 210 Old 04-20-2017, 06:10 PM
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Question about the port length for the HTM-12. The product page says tuning is 55Hz but Matt's page says 3" and 45Hz. Which one is correct?

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post #203 of 210 Old 04-20-2017, 08:44 PM
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Frequency response is +-3dB to 55hz, tuning is 45hz.
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post #204 of 210 Old 04-21-2017, 03:31 PM
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Frequency response is +-3dB to 55hz, tuning is 45hz.
Thanks Matt. Also where do you recommend the crossover be mounted? Hard to tell in the pics with the insulation in there. Your crossovers look great by the way. Very nice work.

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post #205 of 210 Old 04-21-2017, 04:16 PM
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There really are only two places that the crossover fits and that's either on the back of the enclosure behind the woofer or on the sides. I actually don't have the crossover mounted in the enclosure in those photos. You could stick the insulation over the crossover but it's ok to leave it exposed as well.
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post #206 of 210 Old Yesterday, 10:25 AM
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Thanks. On the side it is.

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post #207 of 210 Old Yesterday, 04:06 PM
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Mine are on the side, there are pics in my build (see sig below).

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post #208 of 210 Old Today, 06:42 PM
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Thanks OJ. Yeah I went back to your build after I asked and saw that.

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post #209 of 210 Old Today, 06:43 PM
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One more question Matt. Do you think there would be any benefit to doing the port roundovers using a 80Hz crossover and 150 watts rms?

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post #210 of 210 Old Today, 07:03 PM
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Air velocity with an 80hz crossover will be super low, so I would not worry about it.
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