Can folded horn subs fit an enclosure 17"w X 19"h X 19"d for Home Theater? How low? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 05:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Question Can folded horn subs fit an enclosure 17"w X 19"h X 19"d for Home Theater? How low?

Hello!

My wife and I are building a new house, and everything is wired for speakers and subs. There are two enclosures framed in with the rough framing being 19"w X 21"h X 20"d. There is 5/8 typeX drywall going in throughout the house, so the enclosure will actually probably be more like 17.75"w X 19.75"h X 19"d

The two subs will be about 16' apart sitting in the enclosures built into the front wall.

We are kinda being pushed toward two SunFire HRS-12 sealed subs ($1k each)

I built a BFM AutoTuba several years ago and used it for a HT sub for awhile. I love the effortless deep bass out of the thing.

I do enjoy making my own stuff, and if I'm gonna spend $2k plus taxes on subs that will be hidden in boxes, I'd rather have the fun of building something better if possible...

I wanted to build two full HT Tubas, but the WAF shut that down quick

Are there any plans for two folded horn tuba subs that would work for this application, or do I have to go with two sealed subs?

If I have to go with sealed subs, are there any plans that would fit the bill and be at least a good as the crossfire subs?

Thanks so much in advance for your time!
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post #2 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 05:37 PM
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Pretty small for horns. Probably better off with two high powered sealed 15s. I'm not sure what the go to 15 is for a small sealed cab. The sundown zv4 is one of the best 18s in small sealed. The 15 is likely also good. Then you just need as much amp as you can afford. With 2,000 to spend you might have enough for a speakerpower amp. That would crush that Sunfire setup.
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post #3 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
Hello!

My wife and I are building a new house, and everything is wired for speakers and subs. There are two enclosures framed in with the rough framing being 19"w X 21"h X 20"d. There is 5/8 typeX drywall going in throughout the house, so the enclosure will actually probably be more like 17.75"w X 19.75"h X 19"d

The two subs will be about 16' apart sitting in the enclosures built into the front wall.

We are kinda being pushed toward two SunFire HRS-12 sealed subs ($1k each)

I built a BFM AutoTuba several years ago and used it for a HT sub for awhile. I love the effortless deep bass out of the thing.

I do enjoy making my own stuff, and if I'm gonna spend $2k plus taxes on subs that will be hidden in boxes, I'd rather have the fun of building something better if possible...

I wanted to build two full HT Tubas, but the WAF shut that down quick

Are there any plans for two folded horn tuba subs that would work for this application, or do I have to go with two sealed subs?

If I have to go with sealed subs, are there any plans that would fit the bill and be at least a good as the crossfire subs?

Thanks so much in advance for your time!
only tuba in that size scale would be the t18, which while enjoyable for a lot of music, hardly digs for home theater.
why are your only choices horn or sealed?
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post #4 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 06:51 PM
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That size box is about 3 CF gross internal. A sealed 15, maybe a ported 12 would be the best you could do. But you can easily beat 1K each.

If possible, make that space larger. You can do two sealed UM18s for less than 2 grand, if you can make the space larger, more like 5 CF gross.

Also, rather than building a cubby to place a sub in, make the cubby the sub enclosure. Deck it with plywood instead of drywall, and that becomes the sub enclosure itself.
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post #5 of 31 Old 01-05-2017, 09:17 PM
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It's Table Tuba, a 30x30x16 inch horn loaded sub

@ billfitzmaurice.com

maybe
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www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #6 of 31 Old 01-06-2017, 04:46 AM - Thread Starter
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All good suggestions, but I guess I'm going to have to go with sealed 15's as the WAF wont allow anything bigger... I was thinking perhaps the Dayton Audio UM15-22 15"

As for reasons why sealed or folded horn, I've never really liked the sound of ported subs, plus it's not a good idea to put a ported sub in a hole in the wall The Tube18 would fit, but there's a big drop at 50hz, so not really great for movies...

The box will need to be in the cabinet, can't build the sub directly into the enclosure however, I might be able to not line the inside of the framing, so that could maximize cabinet volume... If I build the box with two layers of 3/4" MDF, or a layer of MDF on the inside clad with 1/2" baltic birch plywood on the outside, that should stiffen it enough, right? Weight is not an issue...

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post #7 of 31 Old 01-06-2017, 05:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
All good suggestions, but I guess I'm going to have to go with sealed 15's as the WAF wont allow anything bigger... I was thinking perhaps the Dayton Audio UM15-22 15"
That's a solid driver. Pair them with an NU6000DSP. Note that you'll want speaker cable run to the subs, not RCA or other line level cables.

Quote:
The box will need to be in the cabinet, can't build the sub directly into the enclosure
Just curious, why not?

Quote:
If I build the box with two layers of 3/4" MDF, or a layer of MDF on the inside clad with 1/2" baltic birch plywood on the outside, that should stiffen it enough, right? Weight is not an issue...
Noooooo, that's just going to waste huge amounts of interior volume. Do a single layer of MDF or BB and brace liberally tic-tac-toe style.
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post #8 of 31 Old 01-06-2017, 10:07 AM
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Ultimax 15 Sealed Build

google this, a recent build here at AVS from 2015

maybe some good ideas and results for your constraints

HTH

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
L/R: Fusion 15 V2 , C: 88 Special , SL/SR: 88 Special(V2) , RL/RR: F-3, TF/TR: Volt 6's TM: SLX, FH: F4Q4
SUBMAXIMUS, ,Submaximus V3,LOWARHORNCustom Dual Driver VBSS,2 x 6000DSP
www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #9 of 31 Old 01-06-2017, 10:14 AM
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are several,
seemed like good info / discussion in the thread , but not exclusively, by
@techguysteve

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU Sammy 82" 4K/HDR
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www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #10 of 31 Old 01-06-2017, 05:18 PM
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Love my um18-22. Ultimax are no joke. A couple 15" in sealed flat packs from Parts Express in the driver and cabinet bundle are about $400 each. That leaves a great budget for some serious power which the Ultimax likes. Like someone mentioned already SpeakerPower is where it at or you could risk a Lab Gruppen Clone from Sanway or Inuke like me.

I would stay away from the Sunfire's for 2k as that buys a lot of sub from Hsu or SVS if you decide not to go DIY. Either company offer potent sealed subs that should fit your size requirements.

So many options but if it were my 2k I'd have 4 sealed Ultimax 15's flat packs and an Inuke 6000. Happy with both mine!

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post #11 of 31 Old 01-08-2017, 08:33 PM - Thread Starter
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OK, so. Since the enclosure size is set, I'm working with what I have at this point

I built a box in sketchup, and calculated the internal volume using 1" dowels for bracing.

Internal volume of the Box: 5033.4375 in^3
Internal volume of the 1" dowels: 650.3096793 in^3
Internal volume of the driver: 224.64 in^3


Actual volume of the box once driver and bracing is accounted for:

4158.487821 in^3
--or--
2.40625 ft^3

I see from research, stuffing the box with polyfill can make the driver "see" up to a 40% larger enclosure(?), so best case scenario the driver would "see" a box that is:

3.36875 ft^3

Anyone have any ideas for miniDSP or similar to maximize output?
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post #12 of 31 Old 01-09-2017, 09:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Oh my... I just figured out an UM18-22 will barely fit into that box....

I will be re-modeling this tomorrow, but I think with some power, a miniDSP and Linkwitz transform, we just might have a winner!

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post #13 of 31 Old 01-10-2017, 01:54 PM
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What's behind that wall? Would infinity baffle work?


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post #14 of 31 Old 01-11-2017, 04:00 AM - Thread Starter
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I don't think IB would work as the left sub goes into the master bedroom closet and the right sub goes into the second bedroom closet. Since the rooms are all open doorway, no such luck. Plus there's that WAF again lol

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post #15 of 31 Old 01-11-2017, 09:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
I see from research, stuffing the box with polyfill can make the driver "see" up to a 40% larger enclosure(?), so best case scenario the driver would "see" a box that is:
Sorry, that's a complete misnomer. Stuffing lowers Qtc, and making the box larger lowers Qtc. But stuffing lowers efficiency, and the smaller box will limit driver excursion, so you'll lose output no matter how much you stuff it. Larger boxes increase efficiency, which means more excursion for less power, and more low-end bass.

I personally wouldn't consider using a UM18 in less than 4 CF net internal, and with 2.4, you're on the small side for the UM15 as well. That's why I was suggesting making the spot into the enclosure, rather building a cubby and sliding a sub into it. It lets you maximize volume for the driver.
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post #16 of 31 Old 01-11-2017, 10:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Sorry, that's a complete misnomer. Stuffing lowers Qtc, and making the box larger lowers Qtc. But stuffing lowers efficiency, and the smaller box will limit driver excursion, so you'll lose output no matter how much you stuff it. Larger boxes increase efficiency, which means more excursion for less power, and more low-end bass.

I personally wouldn't consider using a UM18 in less than 4 CF net internal, and with 2.4, you're on the small side for the UM15 as well. That's why I was suggesting making the spot into the enclosure, rather building a cubby and sliding a sub into it. It lets you maximize volume for the driver.
OK, so what about shortening the sub enclosure to like 12", sealing the front, sealing where the box frame meets the concrete, and leaving the back totally open? The sub would be then open to the rest of the box frame and the insulated wall cavity.

The issue with building the box into the current frame is that there is 5/8 drywall currently on the outsides of the boxes where they protrude into the closets. Will upload a couple more detailed photos later tonight.
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post #17 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 04:35 AM - Thread Starter
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OK< so actually I just re-built the frame in Google Sketchup, and even with the massive amount of 2x4s as seen in the photos, the internal volume is 9.01 cubic feet! I am having them framed boxes clad in 3/4" plywood with construction adhesive today to make the box air tight, and will also seal from the inside. Also, the boxes don't not lead into the wall cavity which is a bonus.

Think I'll still need any bracing?
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post #18 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 06:54 AM
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Now you're cooking with gas. I'd think about a single brace tieing the sides together, and maybe one from the top down to the bottom, as the sides and the top look like relatively large panels.

Be sure to figure out how you're powering the thing. If you're using an amp like the oft-recommend NU6000DSP, figure out where you want it and have appropriate speaker wire run to the sub.
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post #19 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 02:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
Now you're cooking with gas. I'd think about a single brace tieing the sides together, and maybe one from the top down to the bottom, as the sides and the top look like relatively large panels.

Be sure to figure out how you're powering the thing. If you're using an amp like the oft-recommend NU6000DSP, figure out where you want it and have appropriate speaker wire run to the sub.
Awesome, will definitely do that! That was actually gonna be a question for you - currently I have only line-level going to each box, along with a separate 20-amp outlet. Is there a good way to get a seperate amp that will take the line-level and simply amplify? Will the miniDSP work with that? I'd like to amp and EQ each sub separately if possible, with a short line right to the driver - I'd just leave the amp and miniDSP in the box

Oh, also, see attached what the contractor sent:
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post #20 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 02:45 PM
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Looks like you are on the right track. This should work great.
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post #21 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lynx_TWO View Post
I've never really liked the sound of ported subs,
You've just obviously never heard a properly implemented ported sub.

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plus it's not a good idea to put a ported sub in a hole in the wall
Rubbish, so long as the port is on the front.
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post #22 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 04:51 PM - Thread Starter
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You've just obviously never heard a properly implemented ported sub.

Rubbish, so long as the port is on the front.


Ahh yes, good point!


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post #23 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 05:16 PM
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currently I have only line-level going to each box, along with a separate 20-amp outlet. Is there a good way to get a seperate amp that will take the line-level and simply amplify? Will the miniDSP work with that? I'd like to amp and EQ each sub separately if possible, with a short line right to the driver - I'd just leave the amp and miniDSP in the box
Budget? Do the amps need to be quiet? How silent? How much power do you think you want? How many subs are you planning on? And in four months, when you want more bass than that, how many subs will you really have?

There are plate amps, some that even have a built in DSP. There are silent amps. There are amps with lots of power. Getting all those qualities can be expensive.
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post #24 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 06:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
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Budget? Do the amps need to be quiet? How silent? How much power do you think you want? How many subs are you planning on? And in four months, when you want more bass than that, how many subs will you really have?

There are plate amps, some that even have a built in DSP. There are silent amps. There are amps with lots of power. Getting all those qualities can be expensive.


Well, we were looking at the SunFire 12" sealed (2) for 1K each plus tax, so I wouldn't want to go past 2k in total. The amps would need to be quiet, would need to be able to put out 800-1000 watts (preferably continuous, not peak)

We will only have the two, there's no room for more (WAF, otherwise I'd have two TubaHTs )

Would probably be using two miniDSPs after reading a little about their capabilities, but didn't know if it'd be possible to eq the line level signal to the amp between the AVR and the amp...


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post #25 of 31 Old 01-12-2017, 06:44 PM
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Yes, minidsp goes between avr sub out and amp. You only need one minidsp (smallest one the make can handle two channels... one or two channels in from avr, doesn't matter, then two channels out, one to each sub each with own eq if needed).
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post #26 of 31 Old 01-13-2017, 07:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Any thoughts on doing Compound or Isobaric - Dual Drivers setup such as here?

http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/theories.html


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post #27 of 31 Old 01-14-2017, 12:22 AM
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Any thoughts on doing Compound or Isobaric - Dual Drivers setup such as here?

http://www.danmarx.org/audioinnovation/theories.html
Don't bother with isobaric. The link explains why.
What do you mean by 'compound'?
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post #28 of 31 Old 01-14-2017, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Don't bother with isobaric. The link explains why.
What do you mean by 'compound'?
Basic Theory


Two drivers are mounted together in an enclosure with a cavity of air between the two drivers. The drivers must operate in phase with each other. The cavity of air between the drivers should be made as small as possible without compromising the operation of either driver. The modeling for this type of enclosure is done just as you would any other speaker enclosure except you take the Vas of the driver and divide by 2. This will in effect make all your speaker enclosures half as big as they would normally be for any particular driver.

Advantages
Improved sonic bass response. Bass is claimed as being tighter, faster, more accurate and more pure. Vas of the driver is cut in half. The volume of enclosure required to obtain a specific frequency response can be achieved in only half the volume. This is where isobaric enclosures have their biggest advantage.

Disadvantages
Wasted amplifier power to driver the internal sub. Efficiency of the system is down 3 dB as compared to a single driver due to the added cone mass and the reduced Vas. When you compare isobarics to a system which houses two drivers each in their own enclosure, this system wis actually 6 dB less efficient.

Best Applications
Where size is a big issue. When you want the box to be very small. Where more accurate bass is more important than lots of bass. If you have a hefty amplifier with plenty of juice to spare and a driver that can handle a good amount of power. Suited for music, home theater and car. Not used too often these days.


However, I just modeled it and it wouldn't work anyway due to lack of physical size of the box

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post #29 of 31 Old 01-14-2017, 01:14 PM
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quote: Bass is claimed as being tighter, faster, more accurate and more pure.

and , if not using the "wrong' speaker stands elsewhere in the room, the bass will also be less "flabby".

who writes this stuff anyway ?

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post #30 of 31 Old 01-15-2017, 07:10 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by asarose247 View Post
quote: Bass is claimed as being tighter, faster, more accurate and more pure.

and , if not using the "wrong' speaker stands elsewhere in the room, the bass will also be less "flabby".

who writes this stuff anyway ?
C'mon now, you know it's people who, to them, audio is a religion and not a science. It's kinda like the Audioquest speaker cable box I saw the other day that claimed using their cable "reduces harshness and confusion" Oh my g-d, the cable that brings clarity to my eyes and lightens my wallet (hears angels singing)

In addition, after poking around the internet a bit it seems the consensus is, with the advancement of driver technology, unless you are doing car audio where there is no space, the benefits of isobaric are becoming pretty minimal.

I have uploaded the Sketchup file along with the volume calculations if anyone is interested - wants to check for errors Looks like the total box volume after all is said and done will be ~8.22 ft2

Off topic, before uploading any PNG or JPG files y'all may want to compress them first using TinyPNG (google it, it's free) The server storage will thank you I'm sure!
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