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Old 01-13-2017, 10:15 PM
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Oh, no doubt, moving magnet has some interesting upsides. I just meant that there's no need to use wire... just form a Neo disc, cylinder, sleeve or whatever and magnetize it in the desired direction.

Interesting that they make neodymium wire. I'm guessing that once you add the iron and boron needed it is no longer ductile enough to draw into wire, but that's just a guess.
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Old 01-14-2017, 01:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigus View Post
...
Interesting that they make neodymium wire. I'm guessing that once you add the iron and boron needed it is no longer ductile enough to draw into wire, but that's just a guess.

that neodymium magnets are brittle was my understanding as well, but who knows with the way material science is advancing.

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Old 01-15-2017, 09:29 AM
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well, he certainly got me because I thought the idea sounded pretty smart.


here is what I thought he was talking about.


drawn neodymium that is magnetized wire with a N-S in the vertical plane.


that way you are moving the magnet, not the power coil.


around the neo wire magnet could be the power coil where the current from the amp is run through. because that wire is not moving, its mass can be HUGE, so it would not heat up like typical small gauge speaker coil wire. thus power handling could be virtually unlimited. because of the enormous current the power wire could handle, the bl field provided by the neo magnet wire wouldn't have to be that strong. of course you'd need an amp that could work with this kind of arrangement, but I don't think that would be all that difficult to engineer.







now that the idea is in the public domain jan 13 2017, nobody can patent it, unless they have already filed.


and yes, neodymium wire...is a thing:


https://www.americanelements.com/neo...wire-7440-00-8


advantages of this design could be severalfold:


1. no top plate or bottom plate (reduced weight, reduced cost)


2. virtually unlimited thermal handling


3. VERY long coils, excursion and so forth by simply increasing the length of the winding of the neo and the power coil. in some theory, an underhung design with several inches of excursion wouldn't be out of the question.


4. low distortion. the arrangement could be such that the power winding could extend out past the end of the of the neo wire coil by the full length of excursion. the result would be an underhung coil operating in an almost fully linear bl field across the full range of excursion.

Fun thoughts, and things I believe a few companies have experimented with. Other than possibly very low Mmd drivers at large diameter, I don't see any benefit to Neodymium wire vs a slug which will be much more affordable, and have better magnetic function. As Bennett suggests, there are likely some interactions which come into play to complicate things. Also realize that Neo' magnet will get warm with the changing field, especially where there is high force vs motion such as at tuning frequency. You then have the added quirk of the magnetic field of the magnet that may distort the field of the coil, especially at low power levels. I do think it could be executed, but probably needs a feedback system or some sort of magnetic bias to really get the desired effect, and in the end it comes down to a choice of if its easier to just build a 6-10" voice coil driver instead. It is still something I'd like to tinker with some day.
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Old 01-15-2017, 10:10 AM
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Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post
that neodymium magnets are brittle was my understanding as well, but who knows with the way material science is advancing.

They are fairly brittle. More so than ferrite slugs.... Also, what lots of people don't think about, pretty dangerous to work with. I know the ones Marks working with on the 32" motor are crazy strong but when I was in electrical sciences course, we were building a speaker motor and the 4" x 2" neo slugs snapped together and smooched the teachers ring finger so bad they had to take if off..... They couldn't get the magnets apart without destroying his finger, so it ended up getting amputated lol he laughs about it now but holy crap lol
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:33 PM
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It really is crazy how strong these are for permanent magnets. I have a couple of relatively meager 1.5" dia. .25" discs from an old project and even they are dangerous if not treated with respect. I doubt I'd lose a finger, but they can clamp with tnough force to make a nice laceration.
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Old 01-16-2017, 09:39 PM
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I had a pair of LMS motors get me once :/ not chill.
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Old 01-17-2017, 06:47 AM
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They are fairly brittle. More so than ferrite slugs.... Also, what lots of people don't think about, pretty dangerous to work with.
You might enjoy my paperweight then, 600g of (unmagnetized!) grade 38 Nd Magnet. If you want to lose a finger, take apart one of our 21IPAL subs sometime - their motor is powered by a little over 4Kg of this stuff.

Anyway, back to Nd wire. The main (!) problem with my statement in the video is that Neodymium is a very poor conductor: nearly two orders of magnitude worse than copper. Pure Nd also has a very low Curie temperature, about 19°K, and I suspect that by the time you add the components to give it a livable Curie temp it is no longer ductile. Even if we used a radially magnetized slug it wouldn't obviate the need for a top plate and pole piece, as LTD02 hopes. Those metal parts focus the flux where we want it - including on both sides of the coil. Sure you could use a slug and a ring, or wire wound inside and outside the coil, to get flux on both sides - but then you can't charge the motor after assembly! You'd have to assemble it "live" and not only is that extremely time consuming it's also extremely unsafe.

Fun thought experiments!
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Old 01-17-2017, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by bennettprescott View Post
You might enjoy my paperweight then, 600g of (unmagnetized!) grade 38 Nd Magnet. If you want to lose a finger, take apart one of our 21IPAL subs sometime - their motor is powered by a little over 4Kg of this stuff.

Anyway, back to Nd wire. The main (!) problem with my statement in the video is that Neodymium is a very poor conductor: nearly two orders of magnitude worse than copper. Pure Nd also has a very low Curie temperature, about 19°K, and I suspect that by the time you add the components to give it a livable Curie temp it is no longer ductile. Even if we used a radially magnetized slug it wouldn't obviate the need for a top plate and pole piece, as LTD02 hopes. Those metal parts focus the flux where we want it - including on both sides of the coil. Sure you could use a slug and a ring, or wire wound inside and outside the coil, to get flux on both sides - but then you can't charge the motor after assembly! You'd have to assemble it "live" and not only is that extremely time consuming it's also extremely unsafe.

Fun thought experiments!
Holy crap that is a lot of Nd in those. I didn't think it was that much.

That was my first thought as well. Neo doesn't cope with heat well. Some of the newer formulation's are getting better but it's also even more expensive and likely more brittle as a result. You would still need a lot of mass to get the field strength up too.

On a different topic I noticed that the normalized 1kHz Le is a bit higher on the new 21ds115. Does that driver employ a shorting ring below the gap?
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Old 01-17-2017, 07:05 PM
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Originally Posted by bennettprescott View Post
You might enjoy my paperweight then, 600g of (unmagnetized!) grade 38 Nd Magnet. If you want to lose a finger, take apart one of our 21IPAL subs sometime - their motor is powered by a little over 4Kg of this stuff.

Anyway, back to Nd wire. The main (!) problem with my statement in the video is that Neodymium is a very poor conductor: nearly two orders of magnitude worse than copper. Pure Nd also has a very low Curie temperature, about 19°K, and I suspect that by the time you add the components to give it a livable Curie temp it is no longer ductile. Even if we used a radially magnetized slug it wouldn't obviate the need for a top plate and pole piece, as LTD02 hopes. Those metal parts focus the flux where we want it - including on both sides of the coil. Sure you could use a slug and a ring, or wire wound inside and outside the coil, to get flux on both sides - but then you can't charge the motor after assembly! You'd have to assemble it "live" and not only is that extremely time consuming it's also extremely unsafe.

Fun thought experiments!
Love the ipal! Hopefully this should be a good comparison

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Old 01-17-2017, 07:38 PM
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Bennett, while your here could you answer 2 questions -

Firstly, is B&C ever going to make a MI driver?

Secondly among your currently in production drivers, which would you say is the best "drop in" for a JBL E140. I mean subjectively of course, not the T/S or even the FR plots.
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Old 01-18-2017, 06:18 AM
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@bennettprescott , what's your opinion on the fact that on this forum if you don't have 145db+ at the listening position from 10hz through 120hz, you're weak? Any new products in the pipeline to assist with that (lower Fs 18's / 21's, etc)?

I know we are not your target demographic but there are quite a few people on the forum using the SW152's / iPALs in horns for home theater with additional subs for the <35hz area. There must be some market though with Rockford making the T3S2-19, then people like @Ricci going nuts and building this: ZOD Audio MAUL

Also, an we get an iPAL group buy? I'd be in for four!

Thanks for stopping by!
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Old 01-18-2017, 10:44 AM
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@bennettprescott , what's your opinion on the fact that on this forum if you don't have 145db+ at the listening position from 10hz through 120hz, you're weak? Any new products in the pipeline to assist with that (lower Fs 18's / 21's, etc)?

I know we are not your target demographic but there are quite a few people on the forum using the SW152's / iPALs in horns for home theater with additional subs for the <35hz area. There must be some market though with Rockford making the T3S2-19, then people like @Ricci going nuts and building this: ZOD Audio MAUL

Also, an we get an iPAL group buy? I'd be in for four!

Thanks for stopping by!
@bennettprescott - I have to wonder if guys would be interested in an IPAL that is more amplifier friendly even if it dropped the BL^2/Re down ~75% of the standard version with huge motor strength. For those using them sealed or in larger vented enclosures, that actually helps, and more amplifier options could certainly help offset the expense of the woofers.

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Old 01-18-2017, 11:24 AM
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@bennettprescott - I have to wonder if guys would be interested in an IPAL that is more amplifier friendly even if it dropped the BL^2/Re down ~75% of the standard version with huge motor strength. For those using them sealed or in larger vented enclosures, that actually helps, and more amplifier options could certainly help offset the expense of the woofers.
I'd be interested if fs was lower, though I'm not really worried about the amp part.
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Old 01-18-2017, 11:42 AM
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I'd be interested if fs was lower, though I'm not really worried about the amp part.
That's unlikely in the short term, as a true home theater version would likely need a new surround and spider to make significant changes there. Consider how much mass would have to be added to result in a significant Fs shift on the current Mms of 487g. Of course the driver's linearity does still work rather well with big power. This would just make it easier to power with a little less EQ needed in non-horn applications. It would trade some output at the impedance peak for more at the minimums with the SpeakerPower amps.

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Old 01-18-2017, 12:18 PM
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That's unlikely in the short term, as a true home theater version would likely need a new surround and spider to make significant changes there. Consider how much mass would have to be added to result in a significant Fs shift on the current Mms of 487g. Of course the driver's linearity does still work rather well with big power. This would just make it easier to power with a little less EQ needed in non-horn applications. It would trade some output at the impedance peak for more at the minimums with the SpeakerPower amps.
yeah, increasing mms would then decrease efficiency, maybe a little there and some compliance changes..... With the long excursion 18s right now I have gobs of low end, but at the higher frequencies they're not as efficient due to the massive mms. I know everything's a tradeoff, but I don't see many options for higher sensitivity, lower fs drivers with a decent stroke and a strong motor atm. just musing a bit...
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:22 PM
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yeah, increasing mms would then decrease efficiency, maybe a little there and some compliance changes..... With the long excursion 18s right now I have gobs of low end, but at the higher frequencies they're not as efficient due to the massive mms. I know everything's a tradeoff, but I don't see many options for higher sensitivity, lower fs drivers with a decent stroke and a strong motor atm. just musing a bit...
That's why I keep the Othorns around. 8x sealed 21s with 24kw is awesome, but from 30hz+ a pair of IPAL loaded horns with half the power obliterates them.
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:26 PM
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That's why I keep the Othorns around. 8x sealed 21s with 24kw is awesome, but from 30hz+ a pair of IPAL loaded horns with half the power obliterates them.
I've clipped the SP2-12000s a few times, it was already stupid loud and I rarely run it like that, it just got me thinking.... which never ends well...
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:28 PM
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I've clipped the SP2-12000s a few times, it was already stupid loud and I rarely run it like that, it just got me thinking.... which never ends well...
I should send you one of my mics you can you actually measure the SPL that system is producing. You have to be breaking 140 from 15-25hz for sure.
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:32 PM
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I should send you one of my mics you can you actually measure the SPL that system is producing. You have to be breaking 140 from 15-25hz for sure.
Rofl, I'd fear for my house trying to measure max output in that frequency range. It's absurd how much the walls move with even just a little power. When I had the FP14000s hooked up, the first signal light wouldn't even be on and the walls would be shuddering.
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:33 PM
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@notnyt @LTD02

The LMS-U would be awesome for a BP6 like this with its low inductance and big motor:



15hz ported section, 30hz horn FTW!

Build 8 and fire them at the side walls.
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Old 01-18-2017, 12:37 PM
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@notnyt @LTD02

The LMS-U would be awesome for a BP6 like this with its low inductance and big motor:


15hz ported section, 30hz horn FTW!

Build 8 and fire them at the side walls.
lol, I had the thought, but that would require even more space than they're already using, which is absurd. I don't think I'm going to change anything around with this current setup. It's already unwieldy. If I move, it's getting downsized, but then again, so will the theater room most likely.
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Old 01-18-2017, 01:00 PM
 
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@notnyt @LTD02

The LMS-U would be awesome for a BP6 like this with its low inductance and big motor:



15hz ported section, 30hz horn FTW!

Build 8 and fire them at the side walls.
I like.
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Old 01-18-2017, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
That's unlikely in the short term, as a true home theater version would likely need a new surround and spider to make significant changes there. Consider how much mass would have to be added to result in a significant Fs shift on the current Mms of 487g. Of course the driver's linearity does still work rather well with big power. This would just make it easier to power with a little less EQ needed in non-horn applications. It would trade some output at the impedance peak for more at the minimums with the SpeakerPower amps.
Asked Ben about producing 2 or 4 ohm 21Ipals and he said no problem just need a minimum order of like 50 and a few months LOL. Let's see I could use 4 ugh...Haha.

Might be able to use a different spider set to loosen up the compliance a little. Surround I suspect is the same as on the 152 which is a little lighter mass and yet a bit lower FS. Points to perhaps the spiders being the difference.
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Old 01-18-2017, 04:11 PM
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On a different topic I noticed that the normalized 1kHz Le is a bit higher on the new 21ds115. Does that driver employ a shorting ring below the gap?
Josh, the 21DS115 does have an aluminum shorting ring. Le is higher because the coil is four layers - which is why the Bl is so good without increasing cost with a larger motor. As you can see in the attachment the inductance is pretty flat and symmetrical.
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Old 01-18-2017, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
Firstly, is B&C ever going to make a MI driver?

Secondly among your currently in production drivers, which would you say is the best "drop in" for a JBL E140. I mean subjectively of course, not the T/S or even the FR plots.
You know, some of our best customers make MI products. Just not necessarily for the Western markets. I'm not sure how we'd make a less expensive transducer for the range the MI market now operates in, especially in North America. Do we not build it in Italy? Do we cut out some of our QC? Right now we make all our products to the same high standard, there's no "factory seconds" from us and everything is 100% QC at multiple stages, including the end of the production line.

I guess the closest thing we have that you could probably buy off the Internet right now to replace a JBL E140 would be the 15PLB76. That said, I would take a look at our CL series of stamped steel frame Nd magnet woofers. It looks simple but it is a very modern design.
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Old 01-18-2017, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by dsl1 View Post
@bennettprescott , what's your opinion on the fact that on this forum if you don't have 145db+ at the listening position from 10hz through 120hz, you're weak? Any new products in the pipeline to assist with that (lower Fs 18's / 21's, etc)?
I don't know this forum but you're not going to get me to suggest that lots of SPL capability is wrong. I hear some people think dome tweeters are acceptable. Everyone has their own idea of loud, but I'm probably used to doing it over a larger area, and without the room gain.

Lots of posts here about lower Fs. The short story is this is very hard to do in our current baskets, with currently available soft parts technology. A new 21" basket tool costs about €150K.
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Old 01-18-2017, 05:51 PM
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You know, some of our best customers make MI products. Just not necessarily for the Western markets. I'm not sure how we'd make a less expensive transducer for the range the MI market now operates in, especially in North America. Do we not build it in Italy? Do we cut out some of our QC? Right now we make all our products to the same high standard, there's no "factory seconds" from us and everything is 100% QC at multiple stages, including the end of the production line.

I guess the closest thing we have that you could probably buy off the Internet right now to replace a JBL E140 would be the 15PLB76. That said, I would take a look at our CL series of stamped steel frame Nd magnet woofers. It looks simple but it is a very modern design.
I'll have a look, thanks.

Who are these customers who make MI products? These days most MI drivers are Eminence,Celestion and Jensen if I am not mistaken but always interested to hear about more manufacturers.
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Old 01-19-2017, 10:16 AM
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Very interesting!
I cant help but wonder what the new BL will be on this 21.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:57 PM
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Originally Posted by Mark Seaton View Post
@bennettprescott - I have to wonder if guys would be interested in an IPAL that is more amplifier friendly even if it dropped the BL^2/Re down ~75% of the standard version with huge motor strength. For those using them sealed or in larger vented enclosures, that actually helps, and more amplifier options could certainly help offset the expense of the woofers.
Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I'd be interested if fs was lower, though I'm not really worried about the amp part.
Isn't there already the 21SW152 for this? There is even two versions: an 8ohm and 4ohm.

Granted that is compared to the IPAL and not our typical HT-aligned 18" driver.
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Old 01-19-2017, 01:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Isn't there already the 21SW152 for this? There is even two versions: an 8ohm and 4ohm.

Granted that is compared to the IPAL and not our typical HT-aligned 18" driver.
lower xmax on the 21sw152 and increased inductance, would still like to see lower fs and higher xmax
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