B&C 21DS115 23hz 800L TH build - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 73 Old 01-28-2017, 10:27 AM - Thread Starter
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22hz 792L TH build B&C 21DS115

I had for a couple of years wanted to rehab the downstairs living room into a dedicated HT room and office. I wanted pretty big sound, yet needed to balance my lack of a working shop space, limited wood-working skills, and some other factors (like budget, dratted money thing!). Also, given the time constraints I face trying to finish up the Physical Therapy program at ISU, I was leery of a complicated build, or multiple small builds.
I had previously owned a B&C 21SW115 and had it in a QB3 alignment. In spite of being poorly aspirated (I'd not yet learned about the poor performance of very low aspect, undersized slot ports), it being a pretty formidable driver & I loved the thing. I had always wanted to try it in a horn, and alas that never happened. SO, few years later and I get the itch.

There is no way to build a large horn and then move it downstairs. I went so far as to build a full-size cardboard mockup of a lilwrecker, and it would not fit around the corner at the top of the stairs. Well, it's going to be a dedicated man-cave down there, so why not build it in place, size not an issue (up to a point).

B&C came out with the DS model of the 115, and I'd played around with modeling it. What would it do in a suitable horn? Inspired by the simplicity of a single fold 15" TH I'd run on to here at AVS, I played around with fattening the cross sections up and the initial results looked promising. I bounced the idea off of lilmike, and he took it from there with simplicity and performance the goals. Loud, low ... not small, noooooo, that it is not, and I'll have to saw it up if/when I leave here. I have no problem with that.

Acceptable to me
It models around 98dB on a watt, ho-hums at a kilowatt, and has an F3 of ~20hz. Not world class, but no lightweight either.

....but here are a few build pic's.
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post #2 of 73 Old 01-28-2017, 11:28 AM
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Nice! Any chance you could get a brace on that panel behind the driver? Even a little piece connected to that brace might help.
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post #3 of 73 Old 01-28-2017, 07:40 PM - Thread Starter
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Nice! Any chance you could get a brace on that panel behind the driver? Even a little piece connected to that brace might help.
Thank you! You know, it seems pretty obvious now that you mention it, that would be an excellent idea. Still accessible, easy enough, and you're right, that's the least supported section on the structure, probably.

Did some more listening, and really, really liking what I'm hearing. I haven't bumped any clip lights yet, and to say the output is prodigious would not be an overstatement ... sheesh! Can't wait to do some measurements (be just at the horn mouth and my MLP, but better than nothing), and I'm pretty new to measurement so we'll develop that in the days to come.

Here are the inputs and some curves.
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post #4 of 73 Old 01-28-2017, 08:19 PM
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look'n good.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #5 of 73 Old 01-29-2017, 03:30 AM
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Finally!!

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post #6 of 73 Old 01-29-2017, 09:03 PM - Thread Starter
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Finally!!
Heh, yeah, finally, and worth the wait. A big shout-out to Lilmike, wouldn't have happened without him. LTD02 put together a possibility -- a couple in fact -- and they look very interesting, in fact output up in the 40-80 hz range that models as just brutal, but the tapped horn had the 20-40 hz covered really nicely & I'm not lacking in playback range above that... nooooo, not at all by my humble standards. Ultimately the dead simple single fold, three sheets of plywood and all, gave the TH the nod. In time, maybe I'll get a handle on something like half of Ricci's Skhorn, in some good wood, that wouldn't have to be relegated to the mancave. 260L maybe? Be interesting. Lilmike is doing some work on those 6th order BP/OD's too, and I imagine others have as well but I haven't run into them yet ... really new to me.

BUT, I haven't even figured out where this thing taps out yet. I just listened to J.S. Bach's Toccata and Fugue in D minor, some great organ, and shook things up! Listening to the Bach, the EP4000 fan didn't even switch to high mode. It did during some Dave Weckl, but for like 30 seconds. Really tactile experience, too. My mains ran out of steam (B&C 10"'s with DNA-360's, active biamped generously driven), but the sub just shrugged; "That's all you wanted me for? Sure, now back to my nap" kind of thing.

Chrap, you're a little nuts, a Skhorn AND a pair of TH-50 clones? Gawd ... love it! You're going to have to invest in tons and tons of Kevlar to keep your house together!!

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post #7 of 73 Old 01-29-2017, 10:10 PM
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House, no. This will be going in my detached shed which is about 5m x 6m x 2.7m. So its a HUGE space I need to fill with bass. It will be very slow going of coarse because everything got delayed. SO for my TH50 clones they will be way down the road this year. Skhorn wont be started until about middle of March. AND of coarse I have to buy some more amps. So I will have to get by with my single MicroWrecker for now.
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post #8 of 73 Old 02-03-2017, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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This thing is just plain NUTS! Watched about half of "Deep Water Horizon" at -15dB is all, and it just rocked this bunker of an old house -- double brick, lath & plaster walls, and upstairs it was truly shaken up. It was giving me the beginnings of "hair tricks," and flapping my shirt sleeves and trouser legs. AND at less than half volume! I do not know what will happen when I really uncork it, but ... damaging the house is not just a hah hah, what would that be like kind of theoretical question any more.

Attaching the first impedance sweeps. Lilmike said he had some doubts about the DATS' ability to adequately power a big, heavy coil and driver; "The attenuated peaks may be a limitation of the DATS, it is a wee-tiny little amp, and that is a big-assed cone and motor, not to mention a huge horn that it is strapped to. Could also be panel resonances, but I doubt that at such low levels ... Sometimes a weak lower peak like this means weak output, but in this case, I'd question the DATS first."

Sure doesn't sound wimpy on the low end. Rather, the whole atmosphere just resonates, tactile as heck.

I will address the bracing issue tomorrow, because I did leave a large unsupported area behind the driver, and haven't gotten around to bracing the mouth. That will be rectified. I put a fair amount of effort into bracing this thing, makes no sense to leave a critical section like that flapping around.

I've never experienced anything like this monster, not even close!! Easy build, pretty economical driver, it could tear the place apart around me, I'm guessing. YAY! Still can't wait to get some frequency response sweeps done, waiting on a mic.
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post #9 of 73 Old 02-04-2017, 12:14 AM
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Did you get a measured in room response yet? And do you have any pictures of this finished horn?

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post #10 of 73 Old 02-04-2017, 02:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Cool

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Did you get a measured in room response yet? And do you have any pictures of this finished horn?
I haven't, but will get the room response measured in the near future. Really interested in seeing those. Pic's? Not of the finished product. I'ts some decent looking wood, and I'm going to patch the screw holes and give it a good light sanding, then slather on the ol' Watco stain, just pretty it up a bit, and I'll post some pictures.

Can't get over how dumbfounded the experience of that soundtrack left me. And a correction: I finished up at -12dB on the receiver. I've taken music playback into the +4dB range, left me reeling, but the bass was nothing like the movie track; frappin' loud, though! Tapped out my mains, not even close on the sub. And clarity? Got it in spades. Then I listened to some of the Titanic soundtrack ... I don't suppose with a movie that cost $200,000,000 to produce, that they chintzed on the production of the soundtrack! Beautiful recording. Listened at very moderate levels, and the whole system ... wow, subtle, sensitive, powerful ... I tried to describe it to my sister and the closest I could come was to say that the system is an 800 pound gorilla that can do origami. I don't know if that conveys what I'm trying to say.
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post #11 of 73 Old 02-04-2017, 05:11 AM
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What end is the mouth? As in what face?

Does it stand vertically or horizontally?

And what were the final dimensions?
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post #12 of 73 Old 02-04-2017, 03:48 PM - Thread Starter
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What end is the mouth? As in what face?

Does it stand vertically or horizontally?

And what were the final dimensions?
It's end-firing, and I've got it horizontal. Nominally, it is 25 1/2" x 24" x 96"... 792 liters, I think. Three sheets of 3/4" plywood, split right down the middle, and after shortening one up for the baffle & end, I ripped the rest into 8" strips I cut up and used for bracing.

That 152 that's gathering dust in your shed is virtually identical modeled in this cabinet, if you ever get thinking in that direction, of course we'll want to wait and see what the sweeps on this look like
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post #13 of 73 Old 02-04-2017, 05:29 PM
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I do have another SW152 on its way. Then I will get started on the Skhorn build. BUT I plan on having four subs either way. So I will have to figure out which to build when I get to that point.
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post #14 of 73 Old 02-06-2017, 07:05 AM - Thread Starter
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BUT I plan on having four subs either way. So I will have to figure out which to build when I get to that point.
Ahhh, decisions, delicious decisions!
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post #15 of 73 Old 02-11-2017, 12:59 PM - Thread Starter
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I did do some additional bracing and redid the impedance sweep. A little change, but to my unpracticed eye nothing really significant. That being said, I'll post the capture. I hadn't realized (didn't read the instructions adequately, my bad) that I could save all of the sweeps to DATS memory and then do a comparison on one screen. Ah well, still learning this new and fantastic hobby! :^)
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post #16 of 73 Old 02-11-2017, 01:11 PM
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Quote:
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I did do some additional bracing and redid the impedance sweep. A little change, but to my unpracticed eye nothing really significant. That being said, I'll post the capture. I hadn't realized (didn't read the instructions adequately, my bad) that I could save all of the sweeps to DATS memory and then do a comparison on one screen. Ah well, still learning this new and fantastic hobby! :^)
I don't think you're going to see noteworthy variances in small signal testing by making bracing adjustments.
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post #17 of 73 Old 02-12-2017, 04:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I don't think you're going to see noteworthy variances in small signal testing by making bracing adjustments.
notnyt, I love your avatar; holy wall of sound, Batman! That is some system. The JBL F/L/R are drool material as well. I am currently just running a 2.1 system, and my fronts are gratifyingly potent (I may have mentioned, biamped and good old QSC pro amps driving the components), but they run out of steam on music playback. Mind you, it is pretty lively in there by the time they do, but I would rather not they be running at the ragged edge of distortion at the levels I occasionally listen. It's a comparatively small area (MLP is 8.6' from the fronts; I'm set up in one end of the area perpendicularly to the room's long axis), and I'm contemplating three of the B&C 14CXN76 coaxials for L/C/R. They model well in 42L, 60hz tuned BR. I like the point-source approach and phase coherence of coax drivers, though I've never owned any for HT. In the area I have to cover, they'd probably never break a sweat.

"Sue" hasn't broken a sweat, speaking of. Today I went up to the second story of this bunker of an old house (system's in the basement) and the upstairs floor was roiling. I didn't push it any harder. Cracked tile and damaged walls was imminent if I pushed it much harder. Still have not blinked a clip light on the EP4000. Given my budget in terms of money and time for construction, I'd darn well do this build again. Love this horn ... I am really looking forward to some empirical data on sweeps, though learning the ropes of REW and all is going to have to wait a few more weeks until this half of the semester is done, probably. Rrrrrr, hate it when my avocation is thwarted, don't we all?

Yeah, I didn't really expect to see much difference in the impedance sweep, but wanted to see anyway.

Chrapladm, anything new on your end? I know how excited you must be to get your system in your "shed" (big shed!) put together. Heh, two of these and a Skhorn ... that would be pleasantly over the top!
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post #18 of 73 Old 02-12-2017, 05:31 PM
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notnyt, I love your avatar; holy wall of sound, Batman! That is some system. The JBL F/L/R are drool material as well. I am currently just running a 2.1 system, and my fronts are gratifyingly potent (I may have mentioned, biamped and good old QSC pro amps driving the components), but they run out of steam on music playback. Mind you, it is pretty lively in there by the time they do, but I would rather not they be running at the ragged edge of distortion at the levels I occasionally listen. It's a comparatively small area (MLP is 8.6' from the fronts; I'm set up in one end of the area perpendicularly to the room's long axis), and I'm contemplating three of the B&C 14CXN76 coaxials for L/C/R. They model well in 42L, 60hz tuned BR. I like the point-source approach and phase coherence of coax drivers, though I've never owned any for HT. In the area I have to cover, they'd probably never break a sweat.

"Sue" hasn't broken a sweat, speaking of. Today I went up to the second story of this bunker of an old house (system's in the basement) and the upstairs floor was roiling. I didn't push it any harder. Cracked tile and damaged walls was imminent if I pushed it much harder. Still have not blinked a clip light on the EP4000. Given my budget in terms of money and time for construction, I'd darn well do this build again. Love this horn ... I am really looking forward to some empirical data on sweeps, though learning the ropes of REW and all is going to have to wait a few more weeks until this half of the semester is done, probably. Rrrrrr, hate it when my avocation is thwarted, don't we all?

Yeah, I didn't really expect to see much difference in the impedance sweep, but wanted to see anyway.

Chrapladm, anything new on your end? I know how excited you must be to get your system in your "shed" (big shed!) put together. Heh, two of these and a Skhorn ... that would be pleasantly over the top!
Coax's have some inherent sq issues, so I try to avoid them. The speaker acts as the waveguide, but the speaker moves and influences the other sound. As I'm running my fronts fully active they're all time aligned perfectly. You can see some more info on that in my 15" 2-way thread in sig.

If you want more tactile bass with less house damaging spl, check out some transducers. The shadow 8s are great, though pricey.
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post #19 of 73 Old 02-12-2017, 05:57 PM
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Chrapladm, anything new on your end? I know how excited you must be to get your system in your "shed" (big shed!) put together. Heh, two of these and a Skhorn ... that would be pleasantly over the top!
Nothing yet. Everything takes forever it seems with me. I still have to wait to get my second 21. Also have to wait until I can purchase the plywood. BUT that all has to wait until I can get my plywood for my 3way built. Then I think I will be buying a Sanway four channel amp. 200watts x 4 I believe. 8 channel would be nice but I will just have to buy what I can afford. PLUS I need Xo parts and thats going to cost about 150 for the L/R.

So very slow going for my projects. The Skhorn will be the main sub and I wont build another sub for a while. I might look at building the pair of TH50 late this year although I can use the Alpine 15SWS also and I already have one. BUT L/R first and then new amp. I wish these could be done already.
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post #20 of 73 Old 02-17-2017, 04:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Nothing yet. Everything takes forever it seems with me. I still have to wait to get my second 21. Also have to wait until I can purchase the plywood. BUT that all has to wait until I can get my plywood for my 3way built. Then I think I will be buying a Sanway four channel amp. 200watts x 4 I believe. 8 channel would be nice but I will just have to buy what I can afford. PLUS I need Xo parts and thats going to cost about 150 for the L/R.

So very slow going for my projects. The Skhorn will be the main sub and I wont build another sub for a while. I might look at building the pair of TH50 late this year although I can use the Alpine 15SWS also and I already have one. BUT L/R first and then new amp. I wish these could be done already.
I'll have to check out what you've got going for your 3-way project. I'm thinking ahead to redoing my front soundstage, and adding some surrounds to get a 5.1 setup going. For now 2.1 is fine, but my mains don't approach the potential of this sub. I really had not anticipated running out of steam with the 1" horns and the DNA-360's! But my 10" B&C's run out first. Mind, I'm astonished at what those little things can do, 10CL51's, the budget offering in their ten inch lineup ... 2.7 pounds, they wouldn't even make a good paperweight.
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post #21 of 73 Old 02-17-2017, 05:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Update: Got a measurement mic, and have my laptop (actually an old netbook) rehabbed and running, and will get a wireless issue resolved tonight if all goes well. Then I can update REW, and get to studying up on what I need to do to run the sweeps. Again, completely new to me, so I've a fair bit of learning to do. I hardly know where to start, but I gather there is an REW thread somewhere, I think right here on AVS, so that should be required reading.

But if anyone had the equivalent of a "Quick Start" to get a basic frequency response sweep, bring it on. I'm in the middle of a crazy semester in school, and don't have as much time as I'd like to devote to the project, nor what it deserves. I really want to validate the design. Others far more capable than myself are in the process of doing extensive testing on the 21DS driver, I'm interested in how this horn performs, empirically. This horn is kind of a one off. Easy and relatively economical for anyone that didn't object to the size, I suspect it may turn out to be worth duplicating. Lilmike's a hand at design, for sure, and the subjective impressions I have listening to it ...
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post #22 of 73 Old 02-17-2017, 05:26 PM
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I looked at using their 15CL in my bass guitar rig. Great value for money I think.

I have had 2.1 for a LONG time now and the biggest upgrade I made was a center channel. I had some extra speakers and decided to hear it on a movie as a center. What a difference. So while 5.1 would be a huge difference just make sure you have a great center channel. I like phantom and all but will definitely be building a nice center next for indoors. Outdoors I will have to wait a while because that will require some expensive parts.
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post #23 of 73 Old 02-17-2017, 11:35 PM - Thread Starter
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I looked at using their 15CL in my bass guitar rig. Great value for money I think.

I have had 2.1 for a LONG time now and the biggest upgrade I made was a center channel. I had some extra speakers and decided to hear it on a movie as a center. What a difference. So while 5.1 would be a huge difference just make sure you have a great center channel. I like phantom and all but will definitely be building a nice center next for indoors. Outdoors I will have to wait a while because that will require some expensive parts.
Yes, I certainly miss having a Center; that is a big priority for me, but I sort of hesitate to put a mismatched enclosure in with a really sweet sounding system. I'd like L/C/R matching, or at least very close to match timbre, that difficult-to-describe quality of different speakers. Tonight I've been toying with the idea of an interim solution: I already have a perfectly serviceable JBL 15" 2035H (not a premium model, long step down from the 2226H. ... but I don't have one of those, I have a 2035; bird in hand and all that rot). For a center channel, I would need to limit its vertical dimension to ~17". I have 12-14" of depth and 38" of width to play with. Sooooo, I'd need to come up with a compression driver, a waveguide, and an amp (already have an electronic crossover that would work). Using the same CD/waveguide as my L/R would make sense, at least on the surface. It would be a pretty beefy center in my listening area. When I get school behind me, I may start seriously planning matching L/C/R, until then I may have to cobble things together.

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post #24 of 73 Old 02-18-2017, 03:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
I had some extra speakers and decided to hear it on a movie as a center. What a difference.
I'd meant to ask, do you listen to music playback with the center channel active, or just movies? What is your center channel?
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post #25 of 73 Old 02-18-2017, 04:44 PM
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I'd meant to ask, do you listen to music playback with the center channel active, or just movies? What is your center channel?
I listen to music on 2 channel. BUT I am very slowly upgrading my indoor setup and will eventually have a 5.2 system. Then I might watch some BR concerts on surround but wont know until that point. My outdoor surrounds are the MTG08 speaker. Its a 2way using the DNA 150 and 8" Celestion speaker. I have four of those and to test them out i just used it as a center channel. I am back to only 2.1 in my living room. I will be upgrading my cheap line array fronts to 3way's and then eventually building a center and surrounds. I will be using a TPL-150 for my mains and center channel . Then I will most likely use the new TPL-75 for the four surrounds. And when this is done I will probably buy some concert BR's and listen in 5.2 mode. BUT I tend to crank the music when I am cleaning my house. When I am in front of the system I tend to have lower volume and more likely would listen in 5 channel.

I dont have the funds like most on this forum. So my indoor and outdoor setups will probably take until the end of next year to finish. I have quite a few things to buy still to complete the projects. Preamps, amplifiers, projectors and other parts. Long road ahead but I should have my new mains for both outdoors and indoors done in about 3 months. Should be fun.

Also just found out that the 21DS115 costs about 150/200 dollars less than the SW152. So that should be good for my future projects.
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post #26 of 73 Old 02-18-2017, 07:32 PM - Thread Starter
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You know, it just occurred to me, I still have an unused DE250, so all I need is a waveguide and a crossover, if I decided to use my QSC USA400 to bi-amp that and the JBL 2035. The JBL is 98dB on a watt, so probably en effortless 120 RMS plus headroom well in excess of the rated 1.9dB, on one channel, the other channel driving the DE250 ... I even have a modest electronic crossover. Heck, I might as well go for it. So lumber and a waveguide. Hmmmm, I'd be tempted to go with a horn with a little more dispersion than the SEOS-12, maybe the B&C ME15. $23.75 on Amazon.

Yeah, money is an item for me too. Some forum members, bless their socks & hats off, have what must be a ... comfortable margin. I do not. Mine is definitely a poor man's system.

Attached is the horn I have -- "Sue" -- loaded with respectively the 2sw152 and the DS. It's just modeling of course, but still ... that's both drivers driven to the first Xvar excursion limit above tune (turned out to be 22.2hz), 152 in gray. I don't feel as if I've made a second rate choice at all. Also attached is the JBL I've got modeled, 120 watts RMS.
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Name:	JBL 2035 84L BR 120 watts response.PNG
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Name:	Sue, 21SW115 vs 21SW152.PNG
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Last edited by cattskinner; 02-19-2017 at 07:58 AM.
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post #27 of 73 Old 02-18-2017, 08:02 PM
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The model of the horns look pretty equal. Your JBL seems to be in large cabinet for the port tuning.

So when it comes to building your own speaker just make sure you take the time to measure and adjust from there. There is quite a bit of work that needs to be done to optimise parts to have a good speaker design. You can always place a Hpass and Low pass on said drivers and see how it sounds but it might sound 10% of what it could. So just remember to take your time and slowly building your next speaker.

But ya I have four tens and two 10" mids needing to be used. So that will be part of my 3way. Will be a slow process but at this rate I think I might just go with 2way active.

Anyways I still dont see any finished pictures of this monster yet.
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post #28 of 73 Old 02-19-2017, 10:18 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
The model of the horns look pretty equal. Your JBL seems to be in large cabinet for the port tuning.

Anyways I still don't see any finished pictures of this monster yet.
Yeah, JBL is modeled in an 84L bass reflex, and I'm also modeling it in some smaller cab's with a bit higher tuning. It doesn't look as promising in the smaller cab's, really. I've got a fair bit of room under the credenza. I'm planning on building this with very generous porting, good damping, and yeah, I think I'll amp the heck out of it. I'm partial to the old QSC's, I've used several with very good results. The JBL used to serve as my midbass, running a bridged USA850 on it, in something like a 3 ft^3 cab, and even though with a miserly porting, it rocked! Cheap, dead reliable, what's not to like for a guy with a budget? And there's no hurry about it. Right now phantom is okay. But I think a beefy, well amped center would be a welcome addition.

Watched "Martian" tonight, and I may not have infra, but 20-80 hz is covered in spades. I set my receiver (Denon 3808CI) at -9dB and whew! -- a "moving" experience! Sub again just shrugged it off. I'll replay some of the more content-rich scenes and try some higher volumes. Pictures of Sue? Here's one. Oh, and my temporary speaker stands? Fine aesthetic, no? ;^)
I've got the speakers sitting on some bubble wrap to isolate them from the buckets, and the buckets are stuffed with a pillow each. In a week or two the fronts are going up on the wall. This project is still in its infancy. Be the trots to actually finish it, then what would I do? Heh heh ...
I love this horn!
EDIT: Added a comparison of this horn to the Othorn loaded with the SW152, both cab's at 1 watt into nominal impedance. Of course it's an apples and oranges comparison, given the huge difference in size, but ... this horn's sensitivity with that kind of extension is pretty noteworthy. It doesn't take a huge, expensive amp to drive it to crazy levels.
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Name:	Sue n Me ;^).jpg
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Name:	Sue vs 21SW152 Othorn, 1 watt into respective nominal impedance.PNG
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Last edited by cattskinner; 02-19-2017 at 10:39 PM. Reason: Update to include comparison to Othorn
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post #29 of 73 Old 02-19-2017, 10:42 PM
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Wow your left and right are pretty close together. Anyways for an ultimate 2way center channel I would build Notnyts 2way with a single 15". But there are MANY designs out there that can fit your budget also.
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post #30 of 73 Old 02-19-2017, 11:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Wow your left and right are pretty close together. Anyways for an ultimate 2way center channel I would build Notnyts 2way with a single 15". But there are MANY designs out there that can fit your budget also.
Just for the sake of comparison, and again noting high modeled sensitivity yet with a -3 dB point ~21hz extension, here's what a watt will get you in my horn vs. the G-horn. Sue is no G-horn, but again pointing out economy of the design, this horn gets quite a lot of mileage out of modest input.

So as not to get carried away, I acknowledge this is comparing modeled behavior, and the G-horn is a proven design; mine is not. But, the comparison amounts to a fairly complex, $$$ design (using the TC 5400, which I gather is no longer available) with terrific performance when driven with a big, pricey amp (compared to anything I have), contrasted with a simple, relatively inexpensive build with darn good performance when driven with a Berry EP4000. An iNUKE 1000 would be sufficient to cause a ruckus

I will get my wireless issue sorted out tomorrow hopefully, so I can get the latest version of REW, and break out the UMIK-1. First goal is just some sweeps at the horn mouth to get an idea what the raw curve looks like. I'd like to get sweeps done at successive higher inputs, when I can figure that out. I seem to recall that the SubMaximus build thread had some good direction on how to get started with this ...

Size is going to be an issue with any center I build, or more properly the dimensions; 17h x 38w x 14d space available.
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Last edited by cattskinner; 02-20-2017 at 02:00 AM.
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