Shallow form factor subs for behind side acoustic panels - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 58 Old 01-29-2017, 11:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Shallow form factor subs for behind side acoustic panels

Continuing the build process to outfit my new HT with primarily DIY speakers, this thread is for the build and documentation of a pair of subwoofers for the room. The room already has a pair of MartySubs that I've tweaked a bit, to fit behind the screen wall. Those go loud and deep, and give me great bass. The point of these subs are for more even sound distribution around the room.

The design is for a shallow, ported sub, that I can hide behind acoustic panels. To test my idea out, I'm using a different subwoofer, that I haven't seen in any build thread I've found yet, Dayton Audio LS10-44. I don't know how much faith I have in these, but since I'm using left over BB from other projects, it's not that big of an investment to find out.

The subs call for a 1.1 cuft box for a ported design, to get down to 30Hz. The fronts are tuned to 15 Hz, but I'll take 30 Hz for these, given the space contstraints I'm putting on them.

How big are they, here's my cutlist and box mockup. The size and shape may look familiar to some, but I'll just say that I've never seen it ported before.


Ok, now the modeling in WinISD:





Thoughts??
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post #2 of 58 Old 01-29-2017, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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post #3 of 58 Old 01-29-2017, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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post #4 of 58 Old 01-29-2017, 02:51 PM
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Interesting. What type of SPL are you getting in your model? What will be powering these? Why not go up in size to the LS12-44?
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post #5 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 05:11 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
Interesting. What type of SPL are you getting in your model? What will be powering these? Why not go up in size to the LS12-44?
You know, I've never used the SPL charts before, so I don't know if I pulled them right, but here's what I get. Can you translate these for me?



The plan was to try to figure out how to wire them into my iNuke6000DSP. So far I have my custom Martys on a channel each, but they're not using any where near what it can offer. I was thinking about putting both on Ch A, and running these two on Ch B.

You nailed it on the 10 vs. 12 tho. I went back and forth a bunch of times on that question. They both only handle 250W, and their depth isn't that different that it impacts cabinet depth. The only difference is that the 12 wants overall cabinet to be larger, for tuning down only a couple of Hz difference, and I don't really know why I'd bother?
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post #6 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 06:21 AM
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I'd increase the y axis on your spl chart as the result is not being fully shown. Try increasing the y axis to 120 or 125 or somewhere that shows the slope of the line. Additionally, you should compare the spl chart of the 12 as well. I would expect them to have greater output than the 10s.
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post #7 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 07:36 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, I changed the y axis to get the entire curve in view. This is what it looks like for the 10"




Then I had to go get the 12" data entered into WinISD, b/c my luck always proves that none of the drivers I ever want to use are ever in there! After knocking that out, I modeled it for a bit, and was having a heck of a time trying to get it to look nice, 'til I realized that the driver is intended for a much larger cabinet than I'm trying to build. Here are the 2 drivers, in the same box. You can see that I lose most of the lower stuff, for a nominal gain.



Next, I played with the box until I got something that seemed worthwhile, for changing to the larger driver. To even pick up a modest increase, I had to more than double the size of the cabinet. This takes me well beyond the intent of the design, which I think rules out the 12" driver.



What do you think??
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post #8 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 08:07 AM
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Can you also post the SPL comparison of the 10 vs 12?
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post #9 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 10:14 AM - Thread Starter
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Here you go. The difference is noticable, but not overly so. Keep in mind that the 10" is in a 1.1 cuft box, and the 12" is in a 2.8 cuft box. It looks like the peak is < 5db difference @ the tuned freq.

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post #10 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 03:31 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok, so maybe I took silence as consent...



Unfortunately, I started before ordering the woofer, and I'm out of DuraTex. Ordering those today, might have these up and running in time for the Superbowl...
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post #11 of 58 Old 01-30-2017, 10:31 PM
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5db would take double the drivers and double power almost to match. So 2 12" = 4 10" plus doubling the power.

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Here you go. The difference is noticable, but not overly so. Keep in mind that the 10" is in a 1.1 cuft box, and the 12" is in a 2.8 cuft box. It looks like the peak is < 5db difference @ the tuned freq.

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post #12 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 04:25 AM
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If you don't have the space to fit the larger boxes, the two 10s should be fine. Do you have space for the 2.8 cubic foot cab? If you're simply using these to even the response across listening positions, you should be fine. You're still planning on a custom marty-style sub for the rear, right?
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post #13 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 04:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
5db would take double the drivers and double power almost to match. So 2 12" = 4 10" plus doubling the power.
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If you don't have the space to fit the larger boxes, the two 10s should be fine. Do you have space for the 2.8 cubic foot cab? If you're simply using these to even the response across listening positions, you should be fine. You're still planning on a custom marty-style sub for the rear, right?


I understand both of these points, but I really don't have the space for the 2.8 cuft cabinets. I mean, technically I could fit them, but then they'd be the only speakers not hidden by the acoustic panels. Given all the effort I went through to hide all the others, I'm not ready to make that sacrifice.


I'm really getting into tuning the performance of the room now, moving on to acoustic treatments and EQ. If these 2 subs don't do the trick, then I'm most likely going to add that Marty in the rear. I'll have space enough for another 18" there, and if that doesn't do the trick then nothing will!


Then again, if this shallow design works well, it'd be pretty easy to just make another pair of these, and have 2 of them on each side of the room.
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post #14 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 05:50 AM
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Cool design. Be interested to see how these turn out and how they sound.

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post #15 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 07:14 AM
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Ok, so maybe I took silence as consent...
I envy your ability to just go ahead and whip up a pair of impulse subwoofer cabinets in what... a few hours?
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post #16 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 08:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I envy your ability to just go ahead and whip up a pair of impulse subwoofer cabinets in what... a few hours?

Lol, well...


They're pretty small boxes, and made from left over wood. Making the cut sheet took an hour, then it was really just a matter of a few runs across the table saw, some time at the chop saw, and some glue, clamps, and brads. Since the glue was still wet from assembling the boxes and the ports, the ports aren't installed in the boxes yet, they're sitting there. I need to caulk all the box seams and the ports, then I can install them, and caulk that too.


Heck, I haven't even routed out the speaker hole on the front baffles yet.


Thanks for the complement tho!
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post #17 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 07:54 PM
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Subbed and nice job so far. I've been thinking for awhile about putting subs in my side surround columns. I can fit up to 12" subs there and was also leaning toward MBM instead of sub bass content. Your Shallow subs you are using I had wondered if they would bottom out early which is why I had not looked in that direction. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the outcome of these drivers once you have them dialed in to your system.
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post #18 of 58 Old 01-31-2017, 10:22 PM
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Did you get around to testing the drivers at all? I was discouraged to find how much ticking noise these 10" & 12" drivers make in operation. Most might not hear it with music, but if things are playing without a lot of noise to mask it, these were rather noisy. They are a nice form factor and all the parts/mechanics look very promising. Maybe current batches don't have reduced this issue.

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post #19 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 06:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Young View Post
Subbed and nice job so far. I've been thinking for awhile about putting subs in my side surround columns. I can fit up to 12" subs there and was also leaning toward MBM instead of sub bass content. Your Shallow subs you are using I had wondered if they would bottom out early which is why I had not looked in that direction. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the outcome of these drivers once you have them dialed in to your system.
Have fun,
Thanks Chris, I'll be sure to post my opinion when done. I'm not the expert by any stretch though, so I hope my own input isn't too useless.

Wow, speaking of experts!!
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Did you get around to testing the drivers at all? I was discouraged to find how much ticking noise these 10" & 12" drivers make in operation. Most might not hear it with music, but if things are playing without a lot of noise to mask it, these were rather noisy. They are a nice form factor and all the parts/mechanics look very promising. Maybe current batches don't have reduced this issue.
Hey Mark, thanks for the info. This project got up and running pretty quickly, using an idea and materials that have been lying around, so I haven't even had the chance to order the drivers yet! ( 2 y/o and 3 m/o in the house) I was hoping to get them up and running before the SuperBowl, but now I'm hoping to have the 15 minutes to get them ordered by it!
Just so I know what to look for: When you say "ticking" do you mean a literal sound like ticking that is audible when the components are moving during normal operation?
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post #20 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 09:48 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok, wiring help please.


I'm stretching the extent of my own skills for amplifier / sub wiring here. After a bunch of research I think what I'm trying to do is right, but I'd appreciate some help to keep me honest.


I currently have 2 Custom Marty subwoofers with 18" Dayton Ultimax DVC powered by an iNuke6000DSP. The iNuke is getting its signal from the AVR as 2 line outputs, one into channel A, one into Channel B. Each of the subs is wired in series, on its own output channel of the subwoofer (A & B out).


What I'm trying to do is re-wire it so that it supports these 2 new shallow subs as well. My plan is to leave everything before the iNuke the same, but run the 2x 18's off Channel A, and these 2x10's off Channel B. If I've done it right, keeping the 2x 18s wired in series, limited to 2000w makes that 4 Ohm x2 @ 1000w per driver. The 2x 10s wired in series, limited to 500w makes that 8 Ohm x2 @ 250w per driver.


The iNuke is rated at 3100w per channel @ 4 Ohm, and 1600w per channel @ 8 Ohm, so this should work. Diagram explaining below:



Did I get this right?
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post #21 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 10:05 AM
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keep in mind, the inuke 6k into 4 ohms at 40hz will output about 1800w burst 1700w sustained with only one channel running. with two channels running it'll only output 1500w burst 1200w sustained per channel. Into 8 ohms you'll see about 1kw.
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post #22 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 10:16 AM - Thread Starter
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keep in mind, the inuke 6k into 4 ohms at 40hz will output about 1800w burst 1700w sustained with only one channel running. with two channels running it'll only output 1500w burst 1200w sustained per channel. Into 8 ohms you'll see about 1kw.

Wait, huh? Are you saying they're stretching the truth in their documentation, or is it 3100w total, not 3100 WPC @ 4 Ohms?


Either way, it sounds like you're saying it'll work the way I have it wired, but I might find the bigger drivers are hungry, and I might need to dedicate the 6000 to the 18s, and get another one for these new subs?
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post #23 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 10:20 AM
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Wait, huh? Are you saying they're stretching the truth in their documentation, or is it 3100w total, not 3100 WPC @ 4 Ohms?


Either way, it sounds like you're saying it'll work the way I have it wired, but I might find the bigger drivers are hungry, and I might need to dedicate the 6000 to the 18s, and get another one for these new subs?
yeah they overrate by a good bit.
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post #24 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 10:24 AM - Thread Starter
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yeah they overrate by a good bit.
Ok, good info, thanks for the heads up. I'd probably have driven myself crazy, the first time I ran things and it was noticeably quieter.
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post #25 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 12:03 PM
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You have the 2 channel dsp6000, not the 4 channel? If so you could use it to try out the 10s and 18s since it sounds like it is not a 100% sure thing if these 10" will do what you want. That way you wouldn't have to buy another amp before knowing if they will do what you want them to or not.

I have a Dsp6000 and I have ran 2 UM18 off of one channel when trying different configurations. Like using the other channel for another sub or a Crowson. I have also ran 2 UM18 off a DSP3000 bridge so it works on more than just 1 Inuke I have. The amp should be seeing higher than 2 ohm. I am thinking more around 2.25 - 2.5+ if you look at the impedance in WINISD when you have them loaded in an enclosure.

But your wiring above will not work if you do want to try it. You want the UM18 on channel A and the 10s on channel B. So you can adjust each separate as for gains and delays.

Use Biamp mode in the Inuke software. Do not click the Xover tab under the Filter/Crossover section, that is for having a high channel and a low channel which you do not want.


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Ok, good info, thanks for the heads up. I'd probably have driven myself crazy, the first time I ran things and it was noticeably quieter.
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post #26 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 01:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
You have the 2 channel dsp6000, not the 4 channel? If so you could use it to try out the 10s and 18s since it sounds like it is not a 100% sure thing if these 10" will do what you want. That way you wouldn't have to buy another amp before knowing if they will do what you want them to or not.
Yup, I have the 2 channel now, and that's the plan.

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I have a Dsp6000 and I have ran 2 UM18 off of one channel when trying different configurations. Like using the other channel for another sub or a Crowson. I have also ran 2 UM18 off a DSP3000 bridge so it works on more than just 1 Inuke I have. The amp should be seeing higher than 2 ohm. I am thinking more around 2.25 - 2.5+ if you look at the impedance in WINISD when you have them loaded in an enclosure.
I haven't measured the amp, I was just giving 2 Ohm as Dayton reports it on PE. Does it matter for my math somehow that I don't get?

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But your wiring above will not work if you do want to try it. You want the UM18 on channel A and the 10s on channel B. So you can adjust each separate as for gains and delays.
Sorry, I should've drawn the picture better, b/c it's supposed to be showing both 18s sharing a connector, plugged into A. The 10s also share a second connector, and it's plugged into B.

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Use Biamp mode in the Inuke software. Do not click the Xover tab under the Filter/Crossover section, that is for having a high channel and a low channel which you do not want.
Since I have two sub in, why Biamp and not Dual mode? I was going to run Dual so I could set DSP and XO for each pair independently? I currently run both XOs (high and low) and PEQ on my 18s.
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post #27 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 01:43 PM
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I missed the part about your AVR has 2 sub outs, does it let you adjust distance on each or is it just an internal Y? If it is just a why I use biamp because you only need to run 1 XLR to channel A and it feeds both channel A and B inside the amp. But you could run another XLR and use dual mono if you want. No big deal.

As for both 18s sharing a connector, I get that but I just wanna be clear you would only connect the 18s the 1+ and 1-. The 10s would go on the 2+ and 2-. Is that what you meant also?

I read over stuff too fast and missed the end part of your post, both dual mode and biamp will let you adjust delays and DSP each channel separately, only stereo doesn't.

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Yup, I have the 2 channel now, and that's the plan.


I haven't measured the amp, I was just giving 2 Ohm as Dayton reports it on PE. Does it matter for my math somehow that I don't get?



Sorry, I should've drawn the picture better, b/c it's supposed to be showing both 18s sharing a connector, plugged into A. The 10s also share a second connector, and it's plugged into B.


Since I have two sub in, why Biamp and not Dual mode? I was going to run Dual so I could set DSP and XO for each pair independently? I currently run both XOs (high and low) and PEQ on my 18s.

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post #28 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 01:55 PM
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On the NL4FC that gets plugged into the back of the amp. You want the 18's connected to 1+ and 1- only. Then you can use the same connector NL4FC or another separate one, I like a separate one plugged into the B channel for(more confusion, if you use the separate channel B port for the 10s, you would use 1+ and 1-). Then 10s get connected to 2+ and 2- only if you just use 1 NL4FC to connect the 18s and the 10s on 1 NL4FC.

Ill try and find a picture, because it is hard to tell from the pic you posted what you mean for sure or I am just slow

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post #29 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 04:05 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
On the NL4FC that gets plugged into the back of the amp. You want the 18's connected to 1+ and 1- only. Then you can use the same connector NL4FC or another separate one, I like a separate one plugged into the B channel for(more confusion, if you use the separate channel B port for the 10s, you would use 1+ and 1-). Then 10s get connected to 2+ and 2- only if you just use 1 NL4FC to connect the 18s and the 10s on 1 NL4FC.

Ill try and find a picture, because it is hard to tell from the pic you posted what you mean for sure or I am just slow
Hmmm, don't forget that the 2 18s are in 2 separate cabinets. They're not wired in the same cabinets, so I was using the NL4FC so I could connect 2 different copper runs to the same iNuke Channel A output.
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post #30 of 58 Old 02-01-2017, 04:47 PM
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Yeah I get that but if you connect the 2 UM18s to a NL4FC into the back of the Inuke in the channel A speak on port and you connect 1 sub to A 1+ and 1- and the other sub to A 2+ and 2- it will be mixing the sub that is connected to A 2+ and 2- with the subs on channel B 1+ and 1-.

You would need 3 amp channels to do what I think you are trying to do unless I am misunderstanding you.


Quote:
Originally Posted by DougUSMC View Post
Hmmm, don't forget that the 2 18s are in 2 separate cabinets. They're not wired in the same cabinets, so I was using the NL4FC so I could connect 2 different copper runs to the same iNuke Channel A output.
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