128-130+db MBM options? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 50 Old 01-29-2017, 09:43 PM - Thread Starter
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128-130+db MBM options?

Hey guys! I know it's an off the wall question but I need a MBM that can produce the same output as the subs when using a 20+db house curve.

I tried modeling 6 12" drivers like Procella uses in the V6 a while back and couldn't get anything to model correctly using that type of cabinet with any number of drivers moreless six of them. That cabinet design would just allow double the amount of drivers compared to its baffle surface area is why I wanted to go that route. That and it looks really nice too in a baffle wall.

The MBMs will be located in a baffle wall under Quested LT20s and above a 21" sub so the cabs can be rather deep and wide but not too tall. I looked at the VBSS threads and it seems like they are good up to aprox 124db or so and don't really know where to go next for such an application. I'm thinking 55hz-120/140hz is what I'd like but being that I haven't setup my LT20s yet I honestly don't know. I have their matching amps so would imagine they will perform really well down to 100 for sure with the two ten inch woofers but would be really surprised if they can dig much lower with authority.

So let's keep the height at 26" the width at 26" and depth at any reasonable number as I technically have up to 4' if absolutely had to use it; although, it would be very challenging since it's mid height of the wall which isn't that deep itself.

This could be something very simple that I'm not aware of or something more elaborate. It doesn't really matter as long as it meets the requirements.

Thanks all
Alex
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post #2 of 50 Old 01-29-2017, 09:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I looked at the VBSS threads and it seems like they are good up to aprox 124db or so and don't really know where to go next for such an application.
Alex
Are you looking to build a single cabinet or 2 or 3? I trust you realize that if 124dB is the output from one driver, then 2 will take you to 130dB as long as you also double the power.
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post #3 of 50 Old 01-29-2017, 10:07 PM
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I think the Pa460 will do the trick. Here is how I ended up using them for mid bass. I followed a @VicTorious1 design that Ltd02 helped him with. Not sure of max output measured but subjectively I don't know how much more mid bass I could take.

Dayton audio Pa460 in Diysoundgroup Stonehenge?
Post #21 gets to the point on the MBM's.

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post #4 of 50 Old 01-29-2017, 11:25 PM
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I just verified in Winisd that a PA460 will have a max SPL of about 124dB from 50Hz and up in a 6 cubic foot box tuned to 40Hz. That is using an xmax of 11mm. So two of them and you should have your 130dB, or very close to it. A box of 26" x 26" x 20" deep is about 6 cubic feet. You would need a high pass filter at 20Hz to avoid over-excursion.
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post #5 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 01:18 AM
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Tactile Prebuild Analysis - MBM and Sub build

You may run into increased distortion running the 460's past Xmax. It would be up to you what is acceptable.

The reason that graph is showing 124db is the tuning frequency is so low(20hz for VBBS). Put it up to 40hz and add another 460 and more power and it comes up to what you are looking for.

If want more headroom since to hit 130 is going to be running the 460s at close to max output.

If money is not an issue there are other drivers that will take up less space than the 460s, have more output and not being run all out or past Xmax to hit what you are looking for. But more $$$.

It sounds like you are spending a lot of money on this. 460s don't seem like a good match to me.

What are you using to power these MBM?

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post #6 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 08:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Tactile Prebuild Analysis - MBM and Sub build

You may run into increased distortion running the 460's past Xmax. It would be up to you what is acceptable.
Has anyone measured the PA460 for distortion compared to other options? Limiting the PA460 to 6mm xmax in Winisd still shows max spl of 122dB from 45Hz and up with a single driver. I would be surprised if the OP plans to actually run the system at 130dB, but may be looking for the capability to do so to ensure lower distortion when used at more realistic levels.
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post #7 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 09:13 AM
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I don't know if @K9woofer has measured it or he can hear it. He said in the post I linked to he has one. "I have a vbss on a nu1000" I took it that he can hear it or measured it. Maybe he will come to this thread and clarify.

Not that the 460 is a bad woofer, it is very impressive for the $$ for sure. I just think there are better options if money isn't the issue so he isn't running them at the edge of what they can do to accomplish his goal.

I do agree with you about how often will he be running them that high.

How many 21's are you running @audiovideoholic I take it a few to hit that same goal of 130+ for below 50hz?

Another nice sub that would fit the 50hz up range he is looking for and (gives him 4-6db over the 460) is the B&C 18TBW100($345), it would give him a couple more db of leeway over even the B&C 18rbx100 which is $265. The nice thing is the B&C take as much as half the size box of the PA460, draw back is they need more power.

The WINISD graph I attached is max SPL so it shows the 460 where it will be hitting Xmax.

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Originally Posted by gworrel View Post
Has anyone measured the PA460 for distortion compared to other options? Limiting the PA460 to 6mm xmax in Winisd still shows max spl of 122dB from 45Hz and up with a single driver. I would be surprised if the OP plans to actually run the system at 130dB, but may be looking for the capability to do so to ensure lower distortion when used at more realistic levels.
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post #8 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 04:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by gworrel View Post
Are you looking to build a single cabinet or 2 or 3? I trust you realize that if 124dB is the output from one driver, then 2 will take you to 130dB as long as you also double the power.
3 cabinets. One below each LT20. This is for LCR duty but each needs to be 130+db so not maxing the driver out. Yea I understand but doubt can fit two 18s in that space requirement.
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post #9 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 04:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Tactile Prebuild Analysis - MBM and Sub build

You may run into increased distortion running the 460's past Xmax. It would be up to you what is acceptable.

Yea that's why I mentioned that they weren't capable of my requirements.

The reason that graph is showing 124db is the tuning frequency is so low(20hz for VBBS). Put it up to 40hz and add another 460 and more power and it comes up to what you are looking for.

If want more headroom since to hit 130 is going to be running the 460s at close to max output.

If money is not an issue there are other drivers that will take up less space than the 460s, have more output and not being run all out or past Xmax to hit what you are looking for. But more $$$.

That's what I'm looking for as a MBM but just don't see any that meet this requirement. Money really isn't that big of an issue. Size restraints and goal requirements are what is important.

It sounds like you are spending a lot of money on this. 460s don't seem like a good match to me.

What are you using to power these MBM?
I don't know which amp I will be using yet as I don't have a woofer and cabinet combination yet so don't know what they will need. ;-)
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post #10 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 04:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I don't know if @K9woofer has measured it or he can hear it. He said in the post I linked to he has one. "I have a vbss on a nu1000" I took it that he can hear it or measured it. Maybe he will come to this thread and clarify.

Not that the 460 is a bad woofer, it is very impressive for the $$ for sure. I just think there are better options if money isn't the issue so he isn't running them at the edge of what they can do to accomplish his goal.

I do agree with you about how often will he be running them that high.

Yea it's not really about how often I'll actually be running them that high it's just that I want headroom and they need to match the output of my baffle wall. Distance of seating also comes into play here as I have three rows so.... Most of the time I use setting for middle row which is 18.5' so that's a lot of loss by the time it's added up.

How many 21's are you running

Right now ten but redoing the entire room. Will be adding more fill in subs and nearfield.

@audiovideoholic I take it a few to hit that same goal of 130+ for below 50hz?

Another nice sub that would fit the 50hz up range he is looking for and (gives him 4-6db over the 460) is the B&C 18TBW100($345), it would give him a couple more db of leeway over even the B&C 18rbx100 which is $265. The nice thing is the B&C take as much as half the size box of the PA460, draw back is they need more power.

The WINISD graph I attached is max SPL so it shows the 460 where it will be hitting Xmax.
What does the 18BW100 look like from 50-140hz?
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post #11 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 05:06 PM
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Can't you view the picture I attached in post # 7 of the graph comparing the drivers? Approx 134bd from 50-150hz.

That is 2 18TWB100 each in 4cf at 1500w each. I was reading up on them and they are supposed to be excellent SQ also.

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What does the 18BW100 look like from 50-140hz?
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post #12 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 05:12 PM
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If you want more the B&C 21SW115-4 show 136db from 50-150. Each in 5cf and 1700w.

Edit: was down a little at 50hz in the 5cf, going up to 6.5cf gets your flat 136db 50-150.

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post #13 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I don't know if @K9woofer has measured it or he can hear it. He said in the post I linked to he has one. "I have a vbss on a nu1000" I took it that he can hear it or measured it. Maybe he will come to this thread and clarify.
The distortion is obvious if you push it much past 6mm (PA460). Kick drums have a "popping" sound.

If you want 130 db from a single driver its hard to beat a 21.
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post #14 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 05:51 PM
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I just saw this, you want 3 separate cabinets, one for each LCR. The graphs I posted before are for 2 drivers.

Here is what 1 B&C 21SW115-4 in 7cf 45hz tune. 130db 50hz-150

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
3 cabinets. One below each LT20. This is for LCR duty but each needs to be 130+db so not maxing the driver out. Yea I understand but doubt can fit two 18s in that space requirement.
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post #15 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 05:51 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Can't you view the picture I attached in post # 7 of the graph comparing the drivers? Approx 134bd from 50-150hz.

That is 2 18TWB100 each in 4cf at 1500w each. I was reading up on them and they are supposed to be excellent SQ also.
lol I didn't open it because you wrote the graph was of the 460, my bad.

That new graph above is pretty impressive for a single driver cabinet. Are you sure everything is kosher?
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post #16 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 05:59 PM
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That makes sense. I was just wondering why it gets repeated over and over about 11mm of usable excursion. I think it can be misleading and some people think it will sound good playing using 11mm of excursion. Maybe it is just me not understanding why they are saying it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
The distortion is obvious if you push it much past 6mm (PA460). Kick drums have a "popping" sound.

If you want 130 db from a single driver its hard to beat a 21.
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post #17 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 06:00 PM - Thread Starter
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I just saw this, you want 3 separate cabinets, one for each LCR. The graphs I posted before are for 2 drivers.

Here is what 1 B&C 21SW115-4 in 7cf 45hz tune. 130db 50hz-150
Yea single cabs but can house how ever many drivers that can fit in my allocated volume. The Quested LT20s are supposed to be very good down to 40hz but just from my experience I don't see them meeting my needs in the mid range since they are only twin 10" drivers. I'll be pushing the 10s with a massive amp (2800 watts per cab class D 80% efficiency 240v) that is designed just for them but just want the extra headroom before rebuild the baffle wall.
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post #18 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 06:00 PM
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See post #14

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
lol I didn't open it because you wrote the graph was of the 460, my bad.

That new graph above is pretty impressive for a single driver cabinet. Are you sure everything is kosher?
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post #19 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 06:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by K9woofer View Post
The distortion is obvious if you push it much past 6mm (PA460). Kick drums have a "popping" sound.

If you want 130 db from a single driver its hard to beat a 21.
Which 21 for mid bass 50-140hz? I have 8 FTWs and 2 Mals but they are sub drivers not meant for mid bass.
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post #20 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 06:02 PM - Thread Starter
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See post #14
Yea I see. Replied exactly same time.
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post #21 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 06:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Just to make this thread clear here is the link to both my LCRs and amps for them kinda lol.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...chmentid=71504

My LT20s are custom 3 way triple active so not the exact same as linked.

I am using the AP2800-4 (1400 watts per 10") for the 10"s of each cabinet and two AP950-2s (950 watts per 6.5") for the 6.5s and still deciding on an amp for the ribbons but something around 500-750 watts per ribbon.

Then I want a MBM (which can be 1 driver or 4 drivers as long as they fit in the space of 26"x26" front baffle by however deep but not over 4') to go under each LT20 which will be on top of a FTW 21 sub. There are also other subs in the baffle wall.

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post #22 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 06:24 PM
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Which 21 for mid bass 50-140hz? I have 8 FTWs and 2 Mals but they are sub drivers not meant for mid bass.
Sorry I meant pro 21's.
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post #23 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 07:54 PM
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That is going to be crazy What is the plan for the FTW 21s as for type of enclosure and size?

Do you have a build thread?

Do you ever check out Ricci's Data-Bass form? Those guys might know of something else or better if there is something than the B&Cs. Those guys are extreme. But a lot of them are on this board also.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/forum/3-forums/

Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Just to make this thread clear here is the link to both my LCRs and amps for them kinda lol.

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...chmentid=71504

My LT20s are custom 3 way triple active so not the exact same as linked.

I am using the AP2800-4 (1400 watts per 10") for the 10"s of each cabinet and two AP950-2s (950 watts per 6.5") for the 6.5s and still deciding on an amp for the ribbons but something around 500-750 watts per ribbon.

Then I want a MBM (which can be 1 driver or 4 drivers as long as they fit in the space of 26"x26" front baffle by however deep but not over 4') to go under each LT20 which will be on top of a FTW 21 sub. There are also other subs in the baffle wall.
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post #24 of 50 Old 01-30-2017, 09:37 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
That is going to be crazy What is the plan for the FTW 21s as for type of enclosure and size?

Do you have a build thread?

Do you ever check out Ricci's Data-Bass form? Those guys might know of something else or better if there is something than the B&Cs. Those guys are extreme. But a lot of them are on this board also.

http://data-bass.ipbhost.com/index.php?/forum/3-forums/
Right now all ten of the 21s are in 6.5cuft sealed cabs in the bottom of my current baffle wall (see avatar pic). This setup was optimized for the Lab clone 10k 4 channel version with 8 ran off of two of them and the remaining two are powered by QSC amps.

Yea I follow over there too. I'm really thinking about doing two half MAULs up front between the center and L and R at the front wall 1/4 points. That would be from left to right 21, 1/2 MAUL, 21, 1/2 MAUL, 21. There is enough space to add another 21 to each outside of the L and R closer to the walls like I have them now but I just don't know yet as I'm also putting some 21s on the rear wall. I just want to get these LCR/MBM/subs figured out first.

I have a build thread in the theater section. This is a HT2.0 remodel and is moving really slow right now as I haven't even opened all the Quested gear yet. The guy I bought it from is also an Acoustician so he's hopefully helping me with my acoustical plan which is more of an aesthetic plan than a true acoustical plan. I'll link it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gworrel View Post
Are you looking to build a single cabinet or 2 or 3? I trust you realize that if 124dB is the output from one driver, then 2 will take you to 130dB as long as you also double the power.
As long as you have no power compression. The port cross section can't be compromised.
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post #27 of 50 Old 01-31-2017, 02:33 PM
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I just looked at your HT build thread. It is sort of funny that you are moving away from JTR. I'm getting JTR Noesis 215RT's as my LCR's in a few weeks and each one can do 128+ dB from 50 Hz and up and will even do 127 dB at 40 Hz. I've heard them in five different rooms and couldn't resist the sound quality and output.

When you do get your MBM's, make sure you align them with the mains first and then align the MBM's to the subs by using phase traces. An impulse response can't accurately provide the necessary time information at the low frequencies. The midbass area will now have sound that is being contributed from the mains, the MBM's, and the subs. It is important to get all of these time aligned to reduce/eliminate any muddiness.
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post #28 of 50 Old 01-31-2017, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I just looked at your HT build thread. It is sort of funny that you are moving away from JTR. I'm getting JTR Noesis 215RT's as my LCR's in a few weeks and each one can do 128+ dB from 50 Hz and up and will even do 127 dB at 40 Hz. I've heard them in five different rooms and couldn't resist the sound quality and output.

When you do get your MBM's, make sure you align them with the mains first and then align the MBM's to the subs by using phase traces. An impulse response can't accurately provide the necessary time information at the low frequencies. The midbass area will now have sound that is being contributed from the mains, the MBM's, and the subs. It is important to get all of these time aligned to reduce/eliminate any muddiness.
Thanks for popping in DD. Yea Walter will be doing all the calibrations so not worried at all about getting them aligned as I definitely couldn't pull it off myself. He is an Altitude32 Jedi so to speak and have full confidence in his abilities. I just don't know which driver/cabinet combo to use that will work best in this application.

Yea. I love the JTRs. I would say right up there with best speakers for the money for sure but just trying to have better dynamics and completely black background along with less fatigue with the AMTs. Each LT20 will produce about 136db in a baffle wall so I'm actually moving up since only had the 888s as LCRs. I haven't seen any measurements of the LT20s for max spl but they claim +/-2db from 40hz-18khz and 132db at one meter continuous spl so maybe I'm going overboard like most of us around here but it would suck if wanted the MBMs after building the baffle wall without them. I doubt they will mess up my FR if it ends up being better without them and they are just sitting there. But who knows they could totally need to be removed if something funky happens with them being turned off in that scenario.

Most of the pro 21" drivers I've looked at other than the ipal seem to be rather equally spec'ed per each' pricerange. I just started this in hopes of someone knowing how to fit a few 12s, 15s, possibly 18s in a cabinet that would work wonders but I guess most seem to just go with the cheaper 460 vented/ported for their value. I searched databass and couldn't find anything either so guess it truly is as random as my opening statement suggested. That's why I figured more than one driver would be needed for this application though.
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post #29 of 50 Old 02-01-2017, 12:01 AM - Thread Starter
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What about a MBM horn similar to the JTR OS Pro? I could house something like this design on its side with the mouth centered under each LCR and directly place my linacoustic on the cabinet itself except where the mouth is located. The OS Pro is tuned a tad lower than my application calls for but I'm betting it wouldn't be too awfully hard to make it tuned higher while still covering the same amount of octaves since the 21s will be good easily up into the 60s for sure which leaves 35hz through 55hz of the OS Pro's FR to be moved up.

I may have to mess with hornesp after looking at that lol. It should be easier to make than anything else I've tried to model as far as horns go since I've always tried to go as low as possible.


It is plenty loud and affordable for what it is too! It's actually a bargain if you ask me. By the time all the wood is added up and the man hours of building it, I would bet it's cheaper than I could build it myself when accounting how much my time is valued.

Or I guess find a trio of used Danley TH118s. They would work perfect but that's getting expensive and would need to consider building before that most likely.

Last edited by audiovideoholic; 02-01-2017 at 02:48 PM.
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post #30 of 50 Old 02-01-2017, 04:17 AM
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Three TH118 can be made for about the price of a singe used one. How much room do you have for your MBM?


You could always build a simple dual 15" straight horn if you have the room. I have seen many dual 12 straight horns that do very well for mid bass. 60hz and up. Same with a pair of 15's. These are not small horns though.
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