Have two TD15M, need HF drivers to mate - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 172 Old 02-08-2017, 11:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Ryan, you think you're getting break up on your TD15M mid-bass drivers >1kHz?

Their very low le inductance and the cone curve contour with phase plug are one of their main selling points that enable them to go that high.

BTW, here's a thread on a 2-way build using the Beyma TPL150 (without the wave guide) and the TD15H.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ssic-15-a.html

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post #32 of 172 Old 02-08-2017, 02:04 PM
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Those traits don't eliminate break up. I think that thread you linked goes to show its there, but you have to read between the lines. He crossed quite low and still had issues. Its a good driver, but its still a 15" woofer and they all have some break up.

I havent measured mine yet to fully quantify how much or how bad, but based on other measurements of it Ive seen, it is there.

Ryan
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post #33 of 172 Old 02-08-2017, 03:56 PM - Thread Starter
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So a proper 2-way is a no go between these drivers?

Wait a minute. His was the TD15H, not the TD15M. His was made to run lower frequencies, not the higher range the TD15M does.

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post #34 of 172 Old 02-08-2017, 07:25 PM
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I cant say its a no go, but given what I know about them its not something I would do. Will it sound good, ya it probably will. But your thread is about what tweeter you should use and if you want it to sound really great, for what the cost of these drivers ought to reflect, then Id go with something else.

Heck, even the 1" compression drivers that can cross at 1khz are giving me real pause as I hunt the spec sheets for a driver that will do it for me.

Ryan
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post #35 of 172 Old 02-08-2017, 08:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Both the TPL150 and TD15M are fantastic drivers, but getting them together to shake hands in the middle might be insurmountable.

There is the 3-way option. PHL 1660 is a driver I've considered in the past. Sure adds more complexity and cost to the project.
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post #36 of 172 Old 02-08-2017, 09:09 PM
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Yes complexity and cost. But might be the ultimate.

Last year I helped a guy with a 15" woofer design that used 2" compression drivers equiped with beryllium diaphragms. This was truly an amazing combination. The woofer could do what it was meant to do. 700hz and down. Normally the 2" cd would sound really bad up top but the beryllium did wonders. I could easily hear the difference AND measure it. I had read a lot about beryllium but always considered it snake oil given the lack of data to back up the claims. Or the data was meager and I considered it inaudible. That is still expensive, but not complex. It was the best sounding speaker Ive ever hear. Yes that sounds self serving, so take it with a grain of salt. If I had the space and money I would duplicate it, but Ill have to settle for a little smaller 1" CD.

If you did want to head down the 3 way path using those parts, you could go ahead with the two way and add the mid if you feel you need it. Thats kind of nice to not have to do the 3 way and gives you an upgrade path. Play around with the 2 way until youre bored and research mids while you do it, could be fun
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post #37 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 05:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Im not sure Id use the TPL150 myself. I just cant stand the sound of woofer break up. Ill be using an iwata600 and either the DNA-360 cause I have them or the Faital Pro HF10ak. Possibly the Radian 475pb with Be phragms but not sure they are what I want especially for the cost.

I want to cross the woofer below 1000hz. The beaming isnt as much a concern to me as the break up and unpredictable nature of the polar response when it gets up to those break up frequencies.
I'm just curious as to why you're choosing the Iwata over the SEOS?

If you're sensitive to breakup and want to cross below 1000 Hz to match directivity better, just use SEOS 18/BA 750 over the TD15Ms and call it a day.

Having heard both waveguides/horns on multiple occasions I would summarize that the SEOS definitely has a larger sweet spot and the Iwata beams in the HF.
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post #38 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 06:53 AM
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I'm just curious as to why you're choosing the Iwata over the SEOS?

If you're sensitive to breakup and want to cross below 1000 Hz to match directivity better, just use SEOS 18/BA 750 over the TD15Ms and call it a day.

Having heard both waveguides/horns on multiple occasions I would summarize that the SEOS definitely has a larger sweet spot and the Iwata beams in the HF.
Well thats for a few reasons. First, I took over this project from someone else and they had chosen the Iwata 600 so here I am. But even so, there are some pros and cons to each method. The pros to me are this:

1. Iwata 600 has a strong horn loading at 600hz so it can cross lower than a seos given the same CD.
2. The BA750 looks awesome and I would recommend it for mang purposes. But in this case Im going for the highest sound quality I can achieve and the BA uses a 2" diaphragm which breaks up more from about 8khz and up. Ive also considered the B&C DE550 to be able to cross low but it also is a 2" phragm so its out. I would use either of if I could buy a Be phragm for them.
3. The SEOS does have a wider dispersion angle but this is going to be a "sit and listen here" speaker. When I worked with the Iwata 300 the narrow dispersion did not bother me. This can be a bad thing or good thing depending on your perspective. For me, it means I can cross a little higher where the woofer starts to beam if necessary and keeps sidewall reflections down.
4. The original owner made an asthetic decision, which I like, to put the waveguide in a mount above the TD15M cabinet. The SEOS doesnt really work well for that.

And what the heck. Its something new and fun.

Good question. Because really the SEOS is the best thing for home use on the market as far as Im concerned. It hits all the important points of hifi.

Ryan
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post #39 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 07:24 AM
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Well thats for a few reasons. First, I took over this project from someone else and they had chosen the Iwata 600 so here I am. But even so, there are some pros and cons to each method. The pros to me are this:

1. Iwata 600 has a strong horn loading at 600hz so it can cross lower than a seos given the same CD.
2. The BA750 looks awesome and I would recommend it for mang purposes. But in this case Im going for the highest sound quality I can achieve and the BA uses a 2" diaphragm which breaks up more from about 8khz and up. Ive also considered the B&C DE550 to be able to cross low but it also is a 2" phragm so its out. I would use either of if I could buy a Be phragm for them.
3. The SEOS does have a wider dispersion angle but this is going to be a "sit and listen here" speaker. When I worked with the Iwata 300 the narrow dispersion did not bother me. This can be a bad thing or good thing depending on your perspective. For me, it means I can cross a little higher where the woofer starts to beam if necessary and keeps sidewall reflections down.
4. The original owner made an asthetic decision, which I like, to put the waveguide in a mount above the TD15M cabinet. The SEOS doesnt really work well for that.

And what the heck. Its something new and fun.

Good question. Because really the SEOS is the best thing for home use on the market as far as Im concerned. It hits all the important points of hifi.
Thanks for your reply.

I also chose the Iwata over the SEOS and it was due to the better loading so I could cross lower if I chose to and aesthetics, I like the way they look. Single listening position as well.

With that said, I have experienced well tuned SEOS systems that would be really hard to tell apart if compared with my 2" exit Be CDs, they sounded that good. BA 750 was really detailed and clear in one of those systems, I believe is has a coated diaphragm (not sure though).
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post #40 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 08:27 AM
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Thanks for your reply.

I also chose the Iwata over the SEOS and it was due to the better loading so I could cross lower if I chose to and aesthetics, I like the way they look. Single listening position as well.

With that said, I have experienced well tuned SEOS systems that would be really hard to tell apart if compared with my 2" exit Be CDs, they sounded that good. BA 750 was really detailed and clear in one of those systems, I believe is has a coated diaphragm (not sure though).
What CD are you using with your iwata 300s? The Be phragms are really quite nice. One day Ill do it that way.

Good feedback on the BA750. I would jump on that or the DE550 if there was a Be phragm available. I may still get one to try anyways... I recall eternal ev did a design using the TD15M apollo and the seos 18 ba750. He was quite happy with it afaik.

Ryan
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post #41 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 09:11 AM - Thread Starter
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I was looking at 2" Be CDs last night. Don't know which ones are the best. You can't assume the more expensive ones are the best sounding. A lot of the expense is its power handling and SPL ratings. Then there's the question of which wave guide to get. Wide dispersion is nice, but too wide and it starts to bounce around the room like singing in the shower. Too much reverb lol.
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post #42 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 10:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Good read on Beryllium diaphragms.
THE WHOLE TRUTH ABOUT BERYLLIUM DIAPHRAGMS

Can you guys post some links to the specific products you are discussing?A big pair of red lips on top of a high gloss cabinet would look awesome.

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post #43 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 10:59 AM
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A big pair of red lips on top of a high gloss cabinet would look awesome.
Ah, yes, the "Mick Jagger" look!
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post #44 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 11:05 AM
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I was looking at 2" Be CDs last night. Don't know which ones are the best. You can't assume the more expensive ones are the best sounding. A lot of the expense is its power handling and SPL ratings. Then there's the question of which wave guide to get. Wide dispersion is nice, but too wide and it starts to bounce around the room like singing in the shower. Too much reverb lol.
Totally agree about price. On my hunt I keep having to remind myself: these are pro devices and I dont need to pay for power handling or weight reduction. Haha. I bet mine never see more than 4watts. Maybe never 1 watt.

The Radian stuff is well versed in Beryllium, but Ive read some things about Radian that concern me. It seems people drool over their products but the guys who actually buy them and test them dont seem to uss them. There isnt much info I can find on them, so I may be off base.

Have you considered the Iwata?

Ryan
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post #45 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 12:02 PM
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What CD are you using with your iwata 300s? The Be phragms are really quite nice. One day Ill do it that way.

Good feedback on the BA750. I would jump on that or the DE550 if there was a Be phragm available. I may still get one to try anyways... I recall eternal ev did a design using the TD15M apollo and the seos 18 ba750. He was quite happy with it afaik.
I chose the Radian 950PB due to the allegedly superior phase plug design that is suppose to improve HF performance.

What negative things did you read on the Radian CDs?

I actually liked the Radians with their stock Al diaphragms but after putting the Truextent Be diaphragms in them, I haven't experienced listening fatigue yet, super smooth yet detailed at all SPL levels.

I like their HF performance (>10kHz) over the BA 750, more "air", I know it's a 4" CD with a 2" exit but the BA 750 just seemed more dull in comparison, different rooms though so...

To the OP:
Try to get the Radians second hand with their stock Al form and experiment, I really like the Radian/Iwata/AE combo.
Another popular choice seems to be the JBL 2453SL CD, member @notnyt showed that they're comparable to the Be loaded CDs for a lot less.
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post #46 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 12:28 PM
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My search has been around 1" format CDs so the 465pb and 475pb. Ive read the guys like Tom Danley and Earl Geddes have tried them but ultimately went with the DE250 or BMS 4554 due to reliability and sound quality. Like I said, not much concrete data out there, but enough to give me pause about using the 475pb. I may for it yet, but want to try my DNA-360s first and maybe buy the Faital Pro HF10ak to try.

Ryan
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post #47 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 02:27 PM - Thread Starter
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will the 1" format CDs cross low enough?

The the Radian 950BePB looks great, but massive overkill for me. I'd like to get a Be diaphragm CD that crosses comfortably down to 500Hz - 700Hz. I saw a range of throat sizes from 1" to 2". Not sure the 'Mick Jagger lips' will meet the WAF lol.

The Beyma TDL150 touts a beryllium sound quality, so if I go the CD route, it's gotta be Be.
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post #48 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 03:21 PM
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The radian 475pb with Be is about $550 but it should handle 900hz ok and sound good. Id like to see you use it cause Im interested

For that money you could go TPL150 plus midrange for a 3way though.

Ryan
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post #49 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 04:24 PM
 
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So a proper 2-way is a no go between these drivers?

Wait a minute. His was the TD15H, not the TD15M. His was made to run lower frequencies, not the higher range the TD15M does.
I've been building 3 way, mainly pro speakers for many years and I've yet to find a 15" that worked really well in a 2 way and I've trued quite a few including the TD15M. It was the best, but a 15X, 10M and a good tweet will easily best it. That combo was my surrounds for several years.

Another piece of hard won advice would be not to go for second tier drivers first up and replace them later as it will simply cost you more in the end, and it's a PITA rerouting for different drivers. The AEs have larger frames than almost all pro drivers of the same nominal size.

I bought Nick's second last pair of Unitys.
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post #50 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 04:52 PM - Thread Starter
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I've been building 3 way, mainly pro speakers for many years and I've yet to find a 15" that worked really well in a 2 way and I've trued quite a few including the TD15M. It was the best, but a 15X, 10M and a good tweet will easily best it. That combo was my surrounds for several years.

Another piece of hard won advice would be not to go for second tier drivers first up and replace them later as it will simply cost you more in the end, and it's a PITA rerouting for different drivers. The AEs have larger frames than almost all pro drivers of the same nominal size.

I bought Nick's second last pair of Unitys.
Nick really did a great job advancing the cutting edge. I miss him.

Since you've tried the TD15M drivers, how high can they actually cross without issues?

The only way to do a 2-way with them is to find a high quality HF driver that can meet them at their xover limit.
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Since you've tried the TD15M drivers, how high can they actually cross without issues?
Maybe 1k steeply. I wouldn't go above that even with active and being able to notch out breakup peaks as well.

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The only way to do a 2-way with them is to find a high quality HF driver that can meet them at their xover limit.
I don't know what to suggest. Most 1" CDs will sound awful that low and the TPL shouldn't really cross lower than 1k5. Most 1.4, 1.5 and 2" CDs will have breakup modes in the last octave or two as well.

Maybe a BMS 4594 and an 18Sound XR2064. But that makes it a three way.
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post #52 of 172 Old 02-09-2017, 08:43 PM - Thread Starter
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Here's some Radian Beryllium CDs. See any winners?
http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%20index-1.htm

1" / 25mm x800Hz @24dB/oct
Radian 450BePB-8
Radian 465BePB-8
Radian 475BePB-8

1.4" / 35.56mm x500Hz @24dB/oct
Radian 636BePB-8
Radian 745NEOBePB-8
Radian 745BePB-8
Radian 835BePB-8
Radian 951BePB-8

2
" / 50.8mm
x500Hz @24dB/oct
Radian 651BePB-8

Radian 760BePB-8
Radian 760NEOBePB-8
Radian 850BePB-8
Radian 950BePB-8

All reach 20kHz
~$500 - ~$1k

Looking at the frequency response and distortion curves for the Beyma TPL150H, it looks the flattest from 1kHz on with the lowest distortion. Perhaps the loading in the wave guide throat helps improve the 1kHz point.

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post #53 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 05:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Here's some Radian Beryllium CDs. See any winners?
http://www.usspeaker.com/radian%20index-1.htm

1" / 25mm x800Hz @24dB/oct
Radian 450BePB-8
Radian 465BePB-8
Radian 475BePB-8

1.4" / 35.56mm x500Hz @24dB/oct
Radian 636BePB-8
Radian 745NEOBePB-8
Radian 745BePB-8
Radian 835BePB-8
Radian 951BePB-8

2
" / 50.8mm
x500Hz @24dB/oct
Radian 651BePB-8

Radian 760BePB-8
Radian 760NEOBePB-8
Radian 850BePB-8
Radian 950BePB-8

All reach 20kHz
~$500 - ~$1k

Looking at the frequency response and distortion curves for the Beyma TPL150H, it looks the flattest from 1kHz on with the lowest distortion. Perhaps the loading in the wave guide throat helps improve the 1kHz point.
If you are dead set on using the TD15M and can afford the price then a Radian 950BePB would be the ultimate combo. The 950BePB can cross as low as 500hz giving you ample room for crossing the TD15M where it sounds and measures best. I bet that combo would beat out any other combination of compression drivers and woofers that you could find anywhere.
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If you dont listen loud, Id probably go with one of the 1" CDs to save on size, money, more waveguide options, and most importantly, less beaming above 7khz.

Ryan
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I have a set of TAD 4002z's for sale if you're interested. They will do what your'e needing and more.

HT Setup: SEOS 1099 Elusives ; 1 - Klipsch SW-110 Sub; 2 - Tannoy DC100; Panasonic 65" Plasma; Pioneer Elite SC-63
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post #56 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 09:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Are the TADs out of production now? Do yours have all OEM parts? They were crazy expensive, but sounded great by all reports.
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post #57 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 09:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
If you dont listen loud, Id probably go with one of the 1" CDs to save on size, money, more waveguide options, and most importantly, less beaming above 7khz.
What level is loud? I don't crank it up, but I love dynamic uncompressed source material at levels that makes me feel I'm there. I'm not into ear bleed levels. I wore ear plugs when I went to rock concerts.
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post #58 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 09:50 AM
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Are the TADs out of production now? Do yours have all OEM parts? They were crazy expensive, but sounded great by all reports.
They are completely OEM with the original Be diaphragm. They have the Z brackets as well. I'm not sure if they are in production anymore, i couldn't afford these guys new anyway. PM me if you're interested and i can email you some photos. I have a nice horn that can go with them as well. You can cross these as low as 600hz.
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2 CH. Stereo Setup: Klipsch La Scalas (Trachorn 400 upgrade); Primaluna Prologue Premier Integrated Tube Amp; EE MiniMax DAC+; SB Touch;
Rega P1 w/ RB202 Tonearm; Rega FONO MM Phono
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post #59 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 10:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
What level is loud? I don't crank it up, but I love dynamic uncompressed source material at levels that makes me feel I'm there. I'm not into ear bleed levels. I wore ear plugs when I went to rock concerts.
Above 105db is loud IMO. I used the DNA360 to 950hz on a seos 12 (very little horn gain) and had them at a GTG where I could just hear distortion listening to a classical track at silly stupid loud levels. I dont know how loud it was, but Im sure it was over 105db. And it was a very dense musical track full of strings and brass. Other than that one time I havent had issues with it. I just wish there was a Be 1" exit, 2" phragm compression driver like the DE550. For under $600 please

Ryan
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post #60 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 10:19 AM - Thread Starter
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1.75" phragm close enough? All the 1" Radians I listed are under $600.
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