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post #61 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 10:24 AM
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Just a quick comment ...

I have been using a pair of old JBL 2446h CD bodies with Truextent Be replacement diaphragms in them for the last few years with great success. These CDs are bolted to a pair of IWATA 300 waveguides.



This combination has provided my wife and I many splendid hours of music and theater sound tracks. The JBL 2446h bodies can be purchased cheap. You could probably have a pair up and running with Truextent Be phragms for the cost of a single new Radian Be CD.

_______________
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post #62 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 10:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Above 105db is loud IMO. I used the DNA360 to 950hz on a seos 12 (very little horn gain) and had them at a GTG where I could just hear distortion listening to a classical track at silly stupid loud levels. I dont know how loud it was, but Im sure it was over 105db. And it was a very dense musical track full of strings and brass. Other than that one time I havent had issues with it. I just wish there was a Be 1" exit, 2" phragm compression driver like the DE550. For under $600 please
Can you get a Be replacement phragm for the DE550? Sounds like the DNA360 isn't quite doing it for you.
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post #63 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 10:44 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
Just a quick comment ...

I have been using a pair of old JBL 2446h CD bodies with Truextent Be replacement diaphragms in them for the last few years with great success. These CDs are bolted to a pair of IWATA 300 waveguides.



This combination has provided my wife and I many splendid hours of music and theater sound tracks. The JBL 2446h bodies can be purchased cheap. You could probably have a pair up and running with Truextent Be phragms for the cost of a single new Radian Be CD.

_______________
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Carl Huff
Does the separation between the woofers and horn throat cause any issues at crossover? Great looking build. I could live with those IWATAs.
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post #64 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 10:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Can you get a Be replacement phragm for the DE550? Sounds like the DNA360 isn't quite doing it for you.
Unfortunately you cant. And that and the BA750 are the only 2" phragm 1" exit CDs I know of.

The dna-360 is doing it for me just fine. It only gave me trouble that time listening stupid loud. But Id like to cross over at 800 or 900 and never have to remotely wprry about it. Unfortunately I dont think that exists for me. Though the iwata 600 will give me some gain that the seos does not. So I will start with the dna-360 and go from there. This is also a unique project for me and Im kind of willing to spend money on compressions drivers just for the sake of having something "nice" and unique. The Radian Bes would be exactly that. But a little more than Id like to spend and a little unsure. If I had a better handle on their capability and measurements Id bite.

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post #65 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Does the separation between the woofers and horn throat cause any issues at crossover? Great looking build. I could live with those IWATAs.
I had expected it to be a problem when I built them. I am using a bog stock JBL bracket to hold up the IWATAs. I made mental plans to shorten the height of the bracket. However measuring at the listening positions that are 12 to 14 feet from the loudspeakers (they are toed in to converge in front of the listener) everything measured magically smooth, suddenly modifying the bracket became a low prioity and has remained that way for the last 5 years or so. But who knows, the mood may strike me ...
______________
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post #66 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 11:33 AM - Thread Starter
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I found this interesting post
Quote:
LineSource - The Altec forum measurements(fig 1) match data from several other sources. Aluminum and Titanium diaphragms have break-up modes between 10KHz and 15KHz, but beryllium does not typically break-up until above 18Khz, and usually only above 20Khz. This SPL data shows the more extensive break-up of titanium over aluminum diaphragms.

The general viewpoint on the Altec forum is that a beryllium diaphragm has little value with a 2" exit compression driver because the 4" mechanical diaphragm plus phase plug frequency limit is below 10Khz, especially when distortion is also considered. Aluminum diaphragms typically do not start break-up until above 10Khz.

The general viewpoint on the Altec forum is that the $400+ expense of a Be diaphragm is probably only justified for a 1.4"-1.5" CD to remove Al/Ti 10K-15Khz break-up distortion, or marginally valuable for a 1" CD to avoid break-up distortion until over 20Khz(example: TAD 2001). High frequency boost compensation can now extend a flat response to near 20KHz.

Today there are plastic compression driver domes, as well as robust plastic suspensions with aluminum domes. This allows a 1" compression driver to be used at low home SPLs down to 700Hz, and cover up to 20Khz. For my home DIY experiments, these wide BW 1" CDs are the most interesting.
http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...iaphragms.html

Those IWATAs are hard to find and rather spendy. I wonder if I could put an inexpensive CD in them and get by until a later Be upgrade?
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post #67 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 11:41 AM - Thread Starter
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R&D on a budget doesn't work out well with expensive parts. You either have to wait (years?) and watch for a brave or rich pioneer to test out your theories or take a $$$$ leap of faith.

BTW I've talked my wife into a red pair of Mick Jagger lips in our living room. She thinks red and black would look good together DIY Audio is out of stock
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post #68 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
I found this interesting post

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...iaphragms.html

Those IWATAs are hard to find and rather spendy. I wonder if I could put an inexpensive CD in them and get by until a later Be upgrade?

I suggest that you snag a pair of JBL 2446 CDs with stock phragms off of EBay and then later replace the phragms with Truextent Be. Just my thoughts ...

Incidentally the comment by LineSource tells me that he has never listened to a well done 2 inch Be system. Tux, please correct me if I am wrong but I think that you would agree with me that it is easy to hear a difference when using Be on CDs with 2 inch throats. That's especially obvious when using IWATA waveguides.
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post #69 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 11:59 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
I suggest that you snag a pair of JBL 2446 CDs with stock phragms off of EBay and then later replace the phragms with Truextent Be. Just my thoughts ...

Incidentally the comment by LineSource tells me that he has never listened to a well done 2 inch Be system. Tux, please correct me if I am wrong but I think that you would agree with me that it is easy to hear a difference when using Be on CDs with 2 inch throats. That's especially obvious when using IWATA waveguides.
_____________
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Yes it is easy. I have a video of me describibg the difference on youtube. Also easily measured.

I would say its ok to run them stock until a time ready to spend the money on Be, just know that you have a lot of performance sitting on the table until you do.

I think linesource may have been sayibg the 2" exit drivers arent normally used above 10khz due to beaming so why bother with Be. But I found the Be improved the SQ from about 6khz and up, and I did not find the 2" beaming to be an issue.

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post #70 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 12:15 PM - Thread Starter
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Ryan, I just found the Kingpin build. Pretty impressive.
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post #71 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 01:59 PM
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Thanks. Its in Kingpins hands to finish. Cross over work is done.

Best speaker Ive ever heard. No wonder Carl hasnt touched his speaker in 5 years while the rest of us keep searching for the land of audio nirvana. Carl has been there enjoying the audio fruit for 5 years wondering when we'll all show up

Ryan
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post #72 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 03:04 PM
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Tux,

Have you had a chance to hear the JBL D2430K compression driver used in the M2 monitors and few others? Not cheap ($350-$400?) and hard to get but they do run down to 800Hz in the M2.
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post #73 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by mobeer4don View Post
Tux,

Have you had a chance to hear the JBL D2430K compression driver used in the M2 monitors and few others? Not cheap ($350-$400?) and hard to get but they do run down to 800Hz in the M2.
I actually havent given that CD much consideration though it looks great. For me, i need a 1" exit and I believe it is 1.4 or 1.5"??

The OP (Steve) may want to look into it.

Ryan
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post #74 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 05:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Thanks. Its in Kingpins hands to finish. Cross over work is done.

Best speaker Ive ever heard. No wonder Carl hasnt touched his speaker in 5 years while the rest of us keep searching for the land of audio nirvana. Carl has been there enjoying the audio fruit for 5 years wondering when we'll all show up
Did Carl ever start a thread on his set up? Didn't see it in his profile. If so, I'd like the link.

Kingpin hasn't finished the outside of the wood cabinets or he hasn't finished the system yet?
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post #75 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 06:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Did Carl ever start a thread on his set up? Didn't see it in his profile. If so, I'd like the link.

Kingpin hasn't finished the outside of the wood cabinets or he hasn't finished the system yet?
Im not sure where his project has landed. Last I knew I sent all the parts back to him, then nothing. Hopefully he'll get some free time to get back at it. Not sure what the hold up is.

I think Carl has a thread but its on another forum. Search google for iwata 300 jbl 2446 beryllium or some sorta thing.

Ryan
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post #76 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 06:56 PM - Thread Starter
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I think I've got Kingpin beat on procrastination. I've had my TD15Ms in boxes for a decade and a half. I've also had a pair of Seismic 8196 aka Aura 1808 hanging around for the same period. Gotta get this done before I get too old and deaf to care lol.
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post #77 of 172 Old 02-10-2017, 08:27 PM - Thread Starter
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Anything 15kHz on up are lost on my ears. My family doesn't care and my cats will be happier too if we lose most of that last half octave. My left is 10kHz, my right 14kHz.

IWATA: 200 is freakin' huge. 300 takes a 2' CD. 600 takes 1". Does the IWATA help lower the CD's xover limits?

With the IWATA's already narrowing dispersion angles plus the natural HF beaming of the 4" JBL 2446H CD, how small is the sweet spot? Hopefully not the width of just one human.

SEOS: Other than just size, what do the 15, 18, 24 do differently?

Last edited by Steve Hanna; 02-11-2017 at 01:38 AM.
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post #78 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 01:46 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Hanna View Post
Anything 15kHz on up are lost on my ears. My family doesn't care and my cats will be happier too if we lose most of that last half octave. My left is 10kHz, my right 14kHz.

IWATA: 200 is freakin' huge. 300 takes a 2' CD. 600 takes 1". Does the IWATA help lower the CD's xover limits?

With the IWATA's already narrowing dispersion angles plus the natural HF beaming of the 4" JBL 2446H CD, how small is the sweet spot? Hopefully not the width of just one human.

SEOS: Other than just size, what do the 15, 18, 24 do differently?
The bigger Seos waveguides and the bigger IWATA'a can hold their directivity pattern lower. Each size up the scale holds this pattern lower and lower.
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post #79 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
The bigger Seos waveguides and the bigger IWATA'a can hold their directivity pattern lower. Each size up the scale holds this pattern lower and lower.
Where can I get more specific info on the specs concerning this trait.
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post #80 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 07:01 AM
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There should be sonograms for each horn/waveguide on the autotech website.

I do think the iwata will allow a lower cross over because of the horn loading. But I havent quantified this in any way yet.

Ryan
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post #81 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 08:24 AM - Thread Starter
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I hunted down the IWATA 300 sonogram and a 2" CD (Beyma CT750Ti) was used to generate it. Carl and his wife are able to listen together, so maybe it's OK.

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post #82 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 08:43 AM
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Steve, I would say, every system has a compromise. Even mega systems. Theres just no defying physics and that system did have a narrow listening area. But! It wasnt nearly as bad as the graphs and forum talk would have made me think. King pin said right off the bat, if we need a super tweeter let me know and Ill send a TPL150 over asap. In the end it wasnt necessary as far as I was concerned. Super tweeters bring their own set of issues to. The beaming was quite tolerable.

Having said that? If you plan on sitting 10ft away and want to enjoy music or movies with a group of people or while doing chores around the house, its not a good choice. But who listens critically while doing chores or talking with guests.

I recall a time when I was in the basement with the tunes going walking around doing odds and sods and I walked out of the direct sound field and instantly the speakers sounded like they were on the back wall. I took a couple steps back and they were back in position. My brain, no matter how much I tried to consiencously tell it the speakers were on the front wall, thought the speakers were on the back wall. What was happening was the reflection off the back wall was so much stronger that the offaxis sound from the speakers next to me that my brain interpreted to come from there. That is despite having to travel the length of the room twice to get to me. Just an anecdotal story of how quickly the spl drops off axis. That can be a good thing though. No need to treat that room!

Ryan
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post #83 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 08:46 AM
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If youre worried about it, theres always the seos 15 with a 1" radian. This thread has me getting very eager to test my iwata 600s. Maybe Ill try and sneak that in this weekend.

Ryan
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post #84 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 09:09 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ryan. I can wrap my mind around this combo and the physics behind it. Cool stuff. The used JBL 2446H CDs and IWATA wave guides will run around $1300 to $1400 a pair shipped. Figure another grand for the Be phragms. I think I've learned just enough to be dangerous to my wallet lol.

YES! Do test those IWATA 600s. That's the next calculus I'm working on. Those Radian 1" Be CDs are looking better.

Last edited by Steve Hanna; 02-11-2017 at 09:26 AM.
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post #85 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 09:12 AM
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Yikes thats a lot of money.

Ryan
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post #86 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 09:16 AM - Thread Starter
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Yep it is spendy for the best. I don't know how long I could listen to those beat up Ti phragms while waiting on Be nirvana. I'd probably would have to get some interim Al phragms to keep my ears from bleeding.
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post #87 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 09:58 AM - Thread Starter
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The IWATA 600 seems to have a wider sweet spot. ~40° wide at 20kHz. Not too shabby. ~$1700 with Be CDs shipped. -$1000 w/DNA360

The SEOS 15 is cheap and SEOS 18 is not too expensive either. ~$1300 or ~$1500 w/Be CDs shipped. -$1000 w/DNA360

Beyma TPL150H ~$900/pr shipped.
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post #88 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 11:00 AM
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Ill do my best to get around to measurements on Monday and maybe itll help inform your decision.

Ryan
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post #89 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 11:08 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Ryan, but don't let it interfere with RL. I'm a ways off. Waiting on the funds. This will be my last major build (unless I hit the lotto) so I do want to get it right with no regrets.

I was looking at Wayne's thread of sonograms. Fascinating read. Looks like the SEOS has an 80° sweet spot. Only twice the IWATA 600 and about the same as the TPL150H.
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post #90 of 172 Old 02-11-2017, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Carl_Huff View Post
Just a quick comment ...

I have been using a pair of old JBL 2446h CD bodies with Truextent Be replacement diaphragms in them for the last few years with great success. These CDs are bolted to a pair of IWATA 300 waveguides.



This combination has provided my wife and I many splendid hours of music and theater sound tracks. The JBL 2446h bodies can be purchased cheap. You could probably have a pair up and running with Truextent Be phragms for the cost of a single new Radian Be CD.

_______________
Best Regards
Carl Huff
Carl, I know you had a BG RD75 setup in the past. That is what I use now and I think they sound fantastic. Are the Iwata waveguides with the JBL CDs with Be diaphragms the next step up?
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