Too much bass for the space? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 11:38 AM
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Wow.... what happened to AVS????


Multiple suggestions that OP has too many subs? Wow... I just don't know what to say...
He needs to pay more attention to his setup... but too many subs???
Geeze - if this keep up, next thing ya know someone will be recommending unicorn hair speaker wire....
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post #62 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 11:41 AM
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Too much bass is like too much horsepower or too much money! It doesnt exist!!! LOL

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post #63 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 11:50 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluewizard View Post
I have a 950 ft3 room with four 12" subs.

950 Cubic Feet, that doesn't tell us much, it would be better to have the actual dimensions of the room. However, if we find the Cube Root of 950, that is only 9.83 feet. That is a very small room. But if we assume 8ft ceilings, then the room is about 10.9 x 10.9 x 8ft, still a pretty small room for all those Subs.
very close approx 10x12x8

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First, with out a buffer, you can only hang just so many inputs on a Line Level Ouput. A Line Level Output (Sub Out) does not have an infinite driving capacity. You are trying to drive Three Outputs if we assume you AV Receiver has TWO Sub-Outs. Otherwise you are trying to drive SIX inputs with the Sub outputs. Three is marginal but probably workable, but SIX might be a step too far.
good point. the sub input goes into the DSP pc, and then I duplicate the signal and send it out to separate outputs for each sub.

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An 18" driver is approximately 49% larger than a 12" bass driver. So, using TWO 18" is like using THREE 12" bass drivers. I would guess you would have no trouble getting about a 9db increase in output.
the 12s dont have enough power handling to compete with the 18s

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Further, if you have Subs in Front that are Electrically in-phase with Subs at the Back, while electrically in-phase, they are mechanically OUT of Phase. That is likely to cause significant cancellation in the room.
I 100% agree. i have the four subs in front of the mlp with no cancellation at all. in the past I had one sub behind the mlp and it created a lot of cancellation at the mlp

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post #64 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 11:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mbailey View Post
Too much bass is like too much horsepower or too much money! It doesnt exist!!! LOL
lol. in reality too much of either is deadly but I see your point

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post #65 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 12:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
... good point. the sub input goes into the DSP pc, and then I duplicate the signal and send it out to separate outputs for each sub.
I think that is going to require a few more details. How many outputs do you have driving how many inputs?

If you have a limited number of outputs, then likely you need a Distrubtion Amp similar to this -

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/attach...6&d=1438371671


Quote:
the 12s don't have enough power handling to compete with the 18s
I suspect they have plenty of power handling, but you need to balance the output of all your Subs so they are working at the same SPL (loudness).

Do the Subs have built in Plate Amps or are you driving them with external amps? If external Amps, then what amps?

Given that you have SIX Subs, were are they placed in the room?

And what are the acoustics in the room like? Carpets? Curtains? Diffusers? Acoustic Absorption Panels? Other?

More is good, but it is not always better.

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post #66 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 01:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
this must be a joke. haha Im laughing
you honestly dont know the difference between a mic calibration file and an spl calibration?

fwiw I use a dayton emm-6 measurement microphone into a tascam us144 audio interface for my measurements
He is not joking. USB microphones don't need SPL calibration. And microphones like yours that get plugged into audio interface need SPL calibration.
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post #67 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
one of us is definitely showing a huge lack of understanding here

please explain how you can have phase issues when adding a second sub produces a perfect 6 db doubling of output. and then adding 2 more subs produce another perfect doubling of output.
how can there be phase cancellation when you are getting the theoretical maximum output possible from the additional drivers?



this must be a joke. haha Im laughing
you honestly dont know the difference between a mic calibration file and an spl calibration?

fwiw I use a dayton emm-6 measurement microphone into a tascam us144 audio interface for my measurements

No you do not SPL calibrate your mic. So why is it off? It's barely showing SPL and you say it's loud. Why are all of your responses identical? Why is adding a 1/2 spaced sub not changing the response as it will have a completely different response than a corner loaded. Have you loaded the ASIO4ALL file? The reason is something is way off with your measurements and isn't setup correctly. It's obvious you haven't researched how to setup multiples and seen how the responses will change as additional subs are added. The response changes drastically.

So there's your answer. You're obviously brand new to this. Realize you don't know everything and take some advice. Read the link and follow the setup walk thru instructions. Anyone who's done this even once can instantly see you're not doing something right.

here it is again...Compilation of Multiple Sub setup info

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post #68 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 03:09 PM - Thread Starter
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you are asking a lot of questions but please answer my phase question first. how can you have phase cancellation when you see a perfect doubling of the output by doubling the drivers?

thanks

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post #69 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 03:27 PM - Thread Starter
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so I finally got my um 18s in and making noise

one um 18 plugged in, 8 ft3 space for the driver, since the 2nd driver is not connected. box is on left wall about 3/4 of the way





plugging in the second um 18. now only 4 ft3 per driver. sealed box. big increase in low end. this is with the inuke 6000 at full volume.





next I turned the um18s off and measured the four 12s. they are only getting about 125 watts per channel max so the volume is much lower than the um18s. they can handle 250 watts per channel. may need to upgrade the amp.
these are spaced front left wall, front center, front right wall, and right wall about 3/4 way up




finally , everything playing together. the 12s added approx 2.6 dbs.




with all subs playing I turned the signal down 2.6 dbs and its almost identical to the um18 box playing but with a little less distortion. I like less distortion so I may keep everything on!

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post #70 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 03:53 PM
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So I have to ask. Are all those subs enough?
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post #71 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 05:19 PM
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You should search for Acoustic Fields web site I would ad the link but because I'm new here I cant ad the link. What you are doing is over pressurizing that room. If you have windows in that room try listening and testing with them opened and closed. So it is true there is never too much bass, but you are over pressurizing that room.
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post #72 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 05:21 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMky View Post
So I have to ask. Are all those subs enough?
post reported. if you had read the thread you would know that there is NO SUCH THING as enough subwoofage.

for shame

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post #73 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 06:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
you are asking a lot of questions but please answer my phase question first. how can you have phase cancellation when you see a perfect doubling of the output by doubling the drivers?
Easy. It will depend upon the placement of the subs relative to the MLP and time of flight differences. You have a small room, so I doubt it's going to be much of an issue. Room modes and relative sub placement could be a problem though.

The only time you see a true doubling of output by adding another sub of the same capacity, is if they are coincidentally placed, ie <1/4 wavelength apart.
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post #74 of 113 Old 02-16-2017, 09:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Easy. It will depend upon the placement of the subs relative to the MLP and time of flight differences. You have a small room, so I doubt it's going to be much of an issue. Room modes and relative sub placement could be a problem though.

The only time you see a true doubling of output by adding another sub of the same capacity, is if they are coincidentally placed, ie <1/4 wavelength apart.
so with three subs along a 10ft wall and center to center distance of the left and right drivers at 97" and middle driver right in the center what would be the doubling frequency?

my math says 68hz and below??

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post #75 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 04:33 AM
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A couple of pictures of your setup may help... @cdy2179 gave you a great resource, you should check it out...


I still don't get what people are going on about with this guy having too many subs/too much output....
Seriously?
This guy has less firepower across all six of his subs then I do with my pair of drivers (and way, way less output then some of the other guys on AVS) My room is about the same size - I'm pretty sure too much output isn't the issue at all...
So, can we focus on helping this guy dial in his setup, instead of the crazy "too many subwoofers" arguments???
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post #76 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 06:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
A couple of pictures of your setup may help... @cdy2179 gave you a great resource, you should check it out...


I still don't get what people are going on about with this guy having too many subs/too much output....
Seriously?
This guy has less firepower across all six of his subs then I do with my pair of drivers (and way, way less output then some of the other guys on AVS) My room is about the same size - I'm pretty sure too much output isn't the issue at all...
So, can we focus on helping this guy dial in his setup, instead of the crazy "too many subwoofers" arguments???




and weren't you thinking of adding something like an additional eight 18s nearfield?


If some of the systems here on AVS are WBD, Weapons of Bass Destruction, my system is like a wooden stick .LOL..
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post #77 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 06:52 AM
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So, there's a big dip in the 50-70Hz area. That frequency range isn't as displacement limited as the lower bass, so the 12s should be able to fill in there. You might need to work on placement to fix response in that area.
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post #78 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 07:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
and weren't you thinking of adding something like an additional eight 18s nearfield?


If some of the systems here on AVS are WBD, Weapons of Bass Destruction, my system is like a wooden stick .LOL..

Yeah, something like that
But... I would put them all in one box... so technically I will only have 3 subwoofers...
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post #79 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 07:14 AM
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Yes,

It is too much bass! You should send me those 12's and 18's to protect the children and pick up a Bose jewel cube system. Get the model with two bass modules and enjoy.

The more subs, the better the distribution and null control--and the lower the distortion.

Several year ago, I was building some subs in the garage and my wife complained I'd be blowing up the attached house. I told her I needed two subs instead of one because--two subs would created less peak pressure along the ajoining wall so lower the amount of bass SPL entering the house instead of one sub at higher SPL.

She fell for it then Audioquest wanted me to work in their public affairs dept. Running two subs VS one does give better sound quality and more even response along with more peak SPL.

Now if you start to convert air to plasma, fault lines start to slip or the grid starts going down--that is the point to ponder having too much.
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post #80 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 07:22 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by rhodesj View Post
So, there's a big dip in the 50-70Hz area. That frequency range isn't as displacement limited as the lower bass, so the 12s should be able to fill in there. You might need to work on placement to fix response in that area.


Thanks, and you make a very good point . I noticed that the volume increased when adding drivers, so its not technically a null, but just a dip.


I was able to use a little bit of eq to bring it up a bit, and testing it at different levels to make sure it wasn't a null proved positive.





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post #81 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by uniquepattern View Post
Yeah, something like that
But... I would put them all in one box... so technically I will only have 3 subwoofers...


bwahaha. I can already see that becoming a trend. Hey honey, I know its 64 drivers but its still technically one sub
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post #82 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
I have a 950 ft3 room with four 12" subs.

I thought the drivers were junk but it turns out the way I set them up was junk.

meanwhile I already bought 2 um-18s and inuke 6000 and built a box for them.

So....if you were in my shoes, would you just use the two 18s, or would you use the two 18s PLUS the four 12s?

dilemma is it only adds 1.5 decibels but now I will have multiple subs that I would want to time align and that is a lot of effort.
Have a photo of this setup?

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post #83 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 08:21 AM - Thread Starter
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Have a photo of this setup?
old pics of the 12s.


the 18 is off to the left and the 4th 12 is off to the right.








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post #84 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 08:39 AM - Thread Starter
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I would use a couple subs for nearfield. Once you go nearfield, you'll wonder how you ever experience HT without it.


there would literally be no place for me to put near field subs.


as it is the farthest subs are about 7ft away and the closest ones are approx. 4 feet away. That's kinda nearfield no?

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post #85 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
there would literally be no place for me to put near field subs.


as it is the farthest subs are about 7ft away and the closest ones are approx. 4 feet away. That's kinda nearfield no?

Hmmmm... can't place on the sides like end tables?

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post #86 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 08:43 AM
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I found your problem 1201

Your center speaker has it's tennis balls 90 degrees out of phase with the left/right. Also, there is new quantum materials that draw from parallel universes to really get the bass tighter--audiophile tennis balls of course!

You are not going to use generic, off-the-shelf tennis balls will you? Just because you can't afford the new Nordost tennis balls don't mean they don't work. 6moons claim they also help keep the midrange liquid and smooth.

Glad I could help!
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post #87 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 08:47 AM
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I would be afraid to sit in front of those speakers... Tennis ballz flying at high SPL playback I guess it would add some major realism to gun fights!
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I found your problem 1201

Your center speaker has it's tennis balls 90 degrees out of phase with the left/right. Also, there is new quantum materials that draw from parallel universes to really get the bass tighter--audiophile tennis balls of course!

You are not going to use generic, off-the-shelf tennis balls will you? Just because you can't afford the new Nordost tennis balls don't mean they don't work. 6moons claim they also help keep the midrange liquid and smooth.

Glad I could help!


those tennis balls were picked out for their special characteristics to tune the elasticity of the midrange.
the midrange was too bouncy without them and regular tennis balls imparted too much tension. I had to order these from Europe

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I would be afraid to sit in front of those speakers... Tennis ballz flying at high SPL playback I guess it would add some major realism to gun fights!
you haven't been fully immersed in a movie until you physically felt the pain of the gun fights.
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post #90 of 113 Old 02-17-2017, 09:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
those tennis balls were picked out for their special characteristics to tune the elasticity of the midrange.
the midrange was too bouncy without them and regular tennis balls imparted too much tension. I had to order these from Europe
I would suggest keeping a tennis racquet nearby in case a movie track decides to launch those things at you!
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