4-18 cubic ft. flared slot ported build using 4-B&C 21DS115-4 Drivers - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 301 Old 03-10-2017, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Looks awesome. I was looking at getting a pair of subs for my upgrade and these exact drivers were the best budget decision for me. Nice to see you doing this build. 15hz would be plenty low for my wants also as I am on a suspended floor and my single sealed 15 can shake the floor pretty well.



Those boxes are huge. Will have to see how these finish and see if I can fit something similar in my living room also.


What size box were you thinking I can throw something together and see how it looks for you.
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post #62 of 301 Old 03-10-2017, 07:51 PM
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Probably something similar. I like the low tune and that needs volume. If I wanted to go smaller I should probably look at using an 18SW115. BUT I do like the DS115's so there ya go.

For my wants I think I have about 30" wide 24" deep so i think I could manage these sizes. But might have to go with 20" deep. Although my current sub sticks out quite a bit so 24" depth will probably be fine also.

What did these need to hit Xmax power wise?

For me to buy a 18HST would cost about 1300aud. These are about 550. SO huge win and I have liked these since I saw them in the BC website.(I live there a LOT simulating. )

Was going to upgrade my L/R with towers. So if I went this way with subs I will have to look at building a smaller 2way. No biggie as I have always loved the BC subs over almost any other type of HT sub. Not to say other pro audio drivers wouldnt work. Just that pro audio drivers work well in my applications so long as there is a quite amp powering them. SP-1400???
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post #63 of 301 Old 03-10-2017, 08:33 PM
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Gamy body have a WinISD driver file for this they can post. I'd be curious how it would do in a sealed box compared to my UM18.

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post #64 of 301 Old 03-10-2017, 09:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by EndersShadow View Post
Gamy body have a WinISD driver file for this they can post. I'd be curious how it would do in a sealed box compared to my UM18.


Here they are.


As for the angled part of the port where it goes down in size I have 2-6/8 inches so it's not to bad I might sand it down a little and see what I have.

@chrapladm I'm going to see what I come up with in winisd for that box size.
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post #65 of 301 Old 03-10-2017, 09:28 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
Probably something similar. I like the low tune and that needs volume. If I wanted to go smaller I should probably look at using an 18SW115. BUT I do like the DS115's so there ya go.

For my wants I think I have about 30" wide 24" deep so i think I could manage these sizes. But might have to go with 20" deep. Although my current sub sticks out quite a bit so 24" depth will probably be fine also.

What did these need to hit Xmax power wise?

For me to buy a 18HST would cost about 1300aud. These are about 550. SO huge win and I have liked these since I saw them in the BC website.(I live there a LOT simulating. )

Was going to upgrade my L/R with towers. So if I went this way with subs I will have to look at building a smaller 2way. No biggie as I have always loved the BC subs over almost any other type of HT sub. Not to say other pro audio drivers wouldnt work. Just that pro audio drivers work well in my applications so long as there is a quite amp powering them. SP-1400???
3 boxes two different models when I try to check the port velocity nothing shows up... The 11 cubic ft cab has 2-6'' round ports instead of slot ports at 33.83 inches long the rest have regular slot ported sizes.
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post #66 of 301 Old 03-10-2017, 10:38 PM
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Yea, I wonder if using a curved piece there (concave I guess) would be another option. You would keep the height of the port uniform that way. Just have to figure out how to make it. A quarter of a section of PVC pipe the right diameter might work. Also, a bunch of pieces routered with a curve and glued together but that's more work.

Thanks for the feedback, it is making me thinking about adding a feature like this to the 90 degree turns in the ports of the box I'm currently building. I think I'll try making a curved piece to fit in there or try to find some 10-12" diameter PVC pipe. My ports are 6"x6", so that makes things a bit easier than a long & wide port.

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post #67 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 06:11 AM
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4-18 cubic ft. flared slot ported build using 4-B&C 21DS115-4 Drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Numbers

The box has a 15.33 hz tune to it. The slot port is 45 inches long and 24.5 inches wide.

15.30 hz. 131 db.

20 hz. 129 db

25 hz. 129 db

30hz. 130 db

40hz. 132db

50hz. 133 db

60 hz. 134 db

70hz. 135db

80hz. 136db. I'll cross then here most likely

90hz. 137db

100hz. 138db

110hz. 138db

120hz. 140db


My 6-15" legacy drivers numbers

10hz. 107db
15hz. 115 db
20hz. 120db
30hz. 125db
40hz. 128db
50hz. 130db
60hz. 130db
And 130 db on up from there.

It should be like having 2 JTR 4,000's in the room but with more bass than just those two cabinets if my measurements are right.

Sketch up from Matt


With these kinds of estimated numbers across the listed frequencies, is it safe to say that other than size and DIY finish (which is variable), this setup shouldn't have any major flaws? I currently have a JTR OS LFU and, while a beast above 20 Hz, it doesn't have much in the tank below. I like the potential for these to be driven by affordable amps like the iNuke 6000DSP, but am sure there could be some benefit to stepping up to something like Speakerpower.

Are you putting all 4 behind your screen (stacked) or putting 2 in the front and 2 in the back? I could definitely do 2 or 4 of these behind my screen, but they are probably too big for my rear corners.


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post #68 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 06:20 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
With these kinds of estimated numbers across the listed frequencies, and what I assume is very efficient performance at higher frequencies, is it safe to say that other than size and DIY finish (which is variable), this setup shouldn't have any major flaws? I currently have a JTR OS LFU and, while a beast above 20 Hz, it doesn't have much in the tank below. I like the potential for these to be driven by affordable amps like the iNuke 6000DSP, but am sure there could be some benefit to stepping up to something like Speakerpower.

Are you putting all 4 behind your screen (stacked) or putting 2 in the front and 2 in the back? I could definitely do 2 or 4 of these behind my screen, but they are probably too big for my rear corners.


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Yep I'm putting all four sub cabinets behind my screen like the last setup I had. Now for these being sensitive subs here's a chart that shows the difference in power needed to drive these courtesy of Matt that he sent me a few weeks back. The DS vs. the SW the B&C DS is much more efficient than than the SW.

This is the B&C 21sw115-4 vs the um 18 ultimax sub. (I have the DS driver not this one).
Check out the difference 4 against 4
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post #69 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Yep I'm putting all four sub cabinets behind my screen like the last setup I had. Now for these being sensitive subs here's a chart that shows the difference in power needed to drive these courtesy of Matt that he sent me a few weeks back. The DS vs. the SW the B&C DS is much more efficient than than the SW.

This is the B&C 21sw115-4 vs the um 18 ultimax sub. (I have the DS driver not this one).
Check out the difference 4 against 4


Thanks for the reply. I'm in the design phase of my theater now (house isn't even built yet), and I'm trying to figure out the best way to go. It looks like these are sensitive enough to use the iNukes. My question is, would the extra output achieved by co-locating 4 of these all behind the screen outweigh the smoothing effect of having 2 up front and 2 in the back corners? I could potentially build 2 "towers of power", making them slimmer but taller, trying to achieve a similar volume and tune. I assume the port would have to run higher up the back of the cabinet then. Thoughts?


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post #70 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 06:52 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
Thanks for the reply. I'm in the design phase of my theater now (house isn't even built yet), and I'm trying to figure out the best way to go. It looks like these are sensitive enough to use the iNukes. My question is, would the extra output achieved by co-locating 4 of these all behind the screen outweigh the smoothing effect of having 2 up front and 2 in the back corners? I could potentially build 2 "towers of power", making them slimmer but taller, trying to achieve a similar volume and tune. I assume the port would have to run higher up the back of the cabinet then. Thoughts?


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If I could have two in front and two in the back corners I would do that but in my room the entrance to the HT room is in the back corner and the other side has a door that has access to my ejector pump so it's no go for me. As for you if your room works out to where you can do that having these in all four corners I would recommend doing that. I the inuke 6k amps I think are a great match for these since I'll only be giving them 1,700-2,000 watts and I already own them. Speaker power or a clone amp would be the best though and one day I'll drive these with those amps.
The port would have to run up the the back of the box and could be easily figured out via winisd. I would do all four corners of your room if your able to do that.
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post #71 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 06:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DaveyK View Post
My question is, would the extra output achieved by co-locating 4 of these all behind the screen outweigh the smoothing effect of having 2 up front and 2 in the back corners?

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General rule of thumb is that 1 subs in each corner will give a smoother response across the room. I'm running 2 subs up front only and it gives good results.

What's the size of your room?

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post #72 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 07:10 AM
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Originally Posted by jsgrise View Post
General rule of thumb is that 1 subs in each corner will give a smoother response across the room. I'm running 2 subs up front only and it gives good results.



What's the size of your room?


My dedicated room will be about 25x14x9 and I'm going with 2 rows of 3 seats on a concrete slab. The second row will be on a riser. I was planning on putting bass traps in the corners anyway, so I could put these there instead if it works out (along with bass traps with whatever remaining height I have). I'll have to try to learn WinISD and see if I can achieve something similar in a smaller footprint.


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post #73 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 07:18 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
If I could have two in front and two in the back corners I would do that but in my room the entrance to the HT room is in the back corner and the other side has a door that has access to my ejector pump so it's no go for me. As for you if your room works out to where you can do that having these in all four corners I would recommend doing that. I the inuke 6k amps I think are a great match for these since I'll only be giving them 1,700-2,000 watts and I already own them. Speaker power or a clone amp would be the best though and one day I'll drive these with those amps.
The port would have to run up the the back of the box and could be easily figured out via winisd. I would do all four corners of your room if your able to do that.


Thanks. I should be able to do 4 corners if the dimensions work out okay. I also currently own an iNuke 6000DSP and would have some cost savings there. There is always the possibility of upgrading in the future.

I appreciate you sharing the details of your build. I really enjoy DIY and like the value of these drivers and enclosures. I built a couple VBSS enclosures and am very happy with those. These are like the VBSS on steroids!


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post #74 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 08:18 AM
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I think having the 4 drivers at the 25% point with regard to width and height helps. Mike, with the stone hammers being up so high wasn't your non eqed graph already pretty flat across the seats?
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post #75 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 11:00 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I think having the 4 drivers at the 25% point with regard to width and height helps. Mike, with the stone hammers being up so high wasn't your non eqed graph already pretty flat across the seats?


It was pretty flat from 35-100 but from 13-35 I had to big boost of 12db. I ended up having to rake that down because it was much and sounded better when I took that peak down. I wonder if it will be the same with these boxes.

I cut and installed the top panel today to.

@JCJetta stopped by this morning to hear the Titan's. He liked them a lot. I also got to see his new VW what a cool car and fast!
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post #76 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 02:22 PM
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These are gonna be monsters - but when compared to the previous enclosures for the SI-18s, they weren't really all that much larger. I'll comment on the Titan thread for my listening experience.

Seeing the drivers in person was sorta surreal. I made sure I got a good look at my wife's car's wheels which are 19", just so I could get a mental picture of their immense size. In actuality, they are much larger. Huge. The dust caps are monsters as well, and I suppose they need to be with a 4" voice coil. Heavy, yes, but not crazy due to the neo motor structure.

I worry once it is all done that these will not only render drywall from his walls, but also flesh from his face.
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post #77 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 03:13 PM
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I love your builds and I have been following your Titan build for awhile now. I like the look of the inner flare you added! I used a 3/4 round piece of 2" PVC pipe for my full marty build. Flares have been shown to increase the threshold before port chuffing occurs.

I ran your dimensions shown in an early post through the calculator and it looks like you "only" have about 14.5 ft^3 internal volume after subtracting out your port volume. You might want to recheck your sims using this smaller volume. Regardless, this is still a great build and I like your attention to such things as painting the port before assembly as well as routering your exit flare before assembly. Nice touches!!

Can't wait to hear your listening impressions and see some outdoor SPL measurements.

Mike
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post #78 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 03:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by mhutchins View Post
I love your builds and I have been following your Titan build for awhile now. I like the look of the inner flare you added! I used a 3/4 round piece of 2" PVC pipe for my full marty build. Flares have been shown to increase the threshold before port chuffing occurs.

I ran your dimensions shown in an early post through the calculator and it looks like you "only" have about 14.5 ft^3 internal volume after subtracting out your port volume. You might want to recheck your sims using this smaller volume. Regardless, this is still a great build and I like your attention to such things as painting the port before assembly as well as routering your exit flare before assembly. Nice touches!!

Can't wait to hear your listening impressions and see some outdoor SPL measurements.

Mike
Thanks!

Just re did the cabinet to 14.5 cubic ft with the same size port that I have and the tune is now 16.16hz. here's the new graph. I'm not really sure but from what I remember reading the tune of the box is normally goes down or up by 1 hz. when measured by a calibrated mic.
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post #79 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 04:11 PM
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400liters and a 438.14 port size with a 114.30 length I get a 15.36hz tune in HR. Takes about 400watts to hit Xmax.

500 liters, 18cuft, looks worse for the same tune. If tuned lower it looks better.(13hz.) You can always go smaller anyways and EQ. 400liters and 15hz tune seems just right.
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post #80 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 06:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post

This is the B&C 21sw115-4 vs the um 18 ultimax sub. (I have the DS driver not this one).
Check out the difference 4 against 4
Cool build.

So, you already had the UM18s right? And thats with the B&Cs in a larger enclosure? So this is entirely about efficiency? It must be. And if thats the case, how much power are you saving?

Ryan
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post #81 of 301 Old 03-11-2017, 07:42 PM - Thread Starter
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4-18 cubic ft. flared slot ported build using 4-B&C 21DS115-4 Drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Cool build.



So, you already had the UM18s right? And thats with the B&Cs in a larger enclosure? So this is entirely about efficiency? It must be. And if thats the case, how much power are you saving?


Hi Ryan that graph was 4 UM18's vs the the B&C 21SW115-4 the DS sub gained about 2-3 above the SW. I had one UM18 for a week and traded that back to another avs friend that lives down the street from me for PA460's....long story. I had 4 HT-18D2's in 4 LLT's and now going to be using these B&C's. Anyways Matt sent me that chart explaining how efficient these B&C drivers are and how the Inuke 6,000dsp amp would be a good match with these drivers. The graph is power usage from the two drivers if eq;ed the same. Orange is the SW, white is the DS. You can see the driver is much more efficient at the bottom which is a huge plus. It takes less power to run these than what my HT-18's need. It;s all about efficiency and of course the output I hope to get from these.


The graph you posted was what the ds looked like compard to the UM18 in the same box.
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post #82 of 301 Old 03-12-2017, 01:06 AM
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In my simulations it takes about 1600watts to have four 21's hitting Xmax in 400l 15 tune. My sealed sub right now needs about that much. (15HST)

So after further simulations it looks like my single 15HST will perform very similar "simulation wise," as the 21DS115. This will be in a 300l 15hz tune compared to the 400l 15hz for the 21. Although the 400l 13hz tune doesnt look to shabby either.

Does the 21DS115 use the same frame as the SW152?

I have a SW152 so I could build a pair of cabinets and then see how they sound in comparison. Need to get quieter setup though for the 21.

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post #83 of 301 Old 03-13-2017, 11:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
In my simulations it takes about 1600watts to have four 21's hitting Xmax in 400l 15 tune. My sealed sub right now needs about that much. (15HST)

So after further simulations it looks like my single 15HST will perform very similar "simulation wise," as the 21DS115. This will be in a 300l 15hz tune compared to the 400l 15hz for the 21. Although the 400l 13hz tune doesnt look to shabby either.

Does the 21DS115 use the same frame as the SW152?

I have a SW152 so I could build a pair of cabinets and then see how they sound in comparison. Need to get quieter setup though for the 21.
I was dead set on doing a pair of 2 um18's in a 18ft3 cab at 15hz similar to the seaton terraform d18's but ive always had a thing for pro audio subs i wonder how the 2 model i havnt modeled the um18s yet
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post #84 of 301 Old 03-14-2017, 02:26 AM
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Most likely the pair of 18's will do better than a single 21". My single 15 does almost the same as the single 21. SO a pair of 18's will definitely do better than a 21DS115. I dont want to keep simulating other drivers against the 21 in anothers thread. Other wise I would.

That being said I also love pro audio drivers over my past subs. They do lack the ultimate SPL so I am not saying they are better in every way. They just sound better to me. And for me they need to sound great with music an movies. My SPL requirements are easily met, inside, by a pair of 21DS115/SW152's. My outdoor requirements are however going to be met by probably four horned subs.

I wish I could hear the RF19, TSAD 18/21and a few others. They might also sound superb compared to other HT subs. But the best thing I like about this design so far is the fact that I can afford it and the sub only needs about 350watts to hit Xmax. Thats awesome. Big fun on a cheap electricity budget.
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post #85 of 301 Old 03-14-2017, 07:13 AM - Thread Starter
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4-18 cubic ft. flared slot ported build using 4-B&C 21DS115-4 Drivers

What's left on these subs is bracing installing the liner inside and glueing the baffel on. After I post this on going to work on the boxes.



As far as using other subs I emailed SI and got qoutes on the HST 18's and there 24's plus a few other companys like PSI and so on. At the end of the day I liked the B&C's the best along with the price. If I bought the HST's I would of needed 2 new amps and that would of set me back another 2k or more in new amps. Here's a few video's of me breaking in the subs last night night playing them at 20hz.






watch the volume level on this video it makes a werid sound since it's in slow motion.




Last edited by eng-399; 03-14-2017 at 11:37 AM.
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post #86 of 301 Old 03-14-2017, 07:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrapladm View Post
My single 15 does almost the same as the single 21.
wat.
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post #87 of 301 Old 03-14-2017, 09:20 AM
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holy smokes just modeled 2 21ds115's in 18ft3 tuned to 15hz. impressive
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post #88 of 301 Old 03-14-2017, 11:18 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
wat.
THANKS


21DS115 takes abouts 700watts to hit Xmax in 400 liter 15hz tune.

I modeled the SW152 also and wondered why there was much of a difference at all. I knew a 18" 5100 could output slightly more than the SW152 but not a 15. So I posted my comments in a hurry and hoped someone would see it. Then I looked back at the simulations Sd and saw the DS was incorrect. So now everything makes more sense. Still getting a pair of DS115's for my living room. Cant believe how big 400l is. I think I might need to sell a few things now to hurry up and get my 21's.

Sorry for any confusion
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post #89 of 301 Old 03-18-2017, 05:07 PM
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What are you using to make your cuts?
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post #90 of 301 Old 03-18-2017, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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4-18 cubic ft. flared slot ported build using 4-B&C 21DS115-4 Drivers

Quote:
Originally Posted by redliner140 View Post
What are you using to make your cuts?


I'm using a track that Menards sells for around 75$. It clamps both sides of the mdf and is 98 inches long... I think if I remember correctly. It basically handles the full length.
Then I run my circular saw next to it.
I'll post some pictures in the morning we're I'm at with these but basically the first box is complete and sanded and will see primer in the morning the second box I need to run 4 more braces then glue the baffle on. I also ran out of bed liner I thought I had a ton left over but it only covered one box...

All I can say is I really miss having big subs and big boxes behind my screen. You get use to a certain sound and level of bass I can't wait to get these boxes done.
This bar project has slowed the box down to.
I bought some Cherry trim for my basement bar which I'm starting to put together. Nothing is nailed up yet but this week it should be done and then the stain will Go on.

The place i bought the trim at is called owl lumber they have a website to. They will also cut mdf/Baltic birch or what ever else to 1/32 of inch guaranteed for a dollar a cut if anyone is interested. The guy went on telling me how expensive there saw is and can cut 4 sheets at a time...

I'll take Pictures In The morning when it's light outside and post them.

Last edited by eng-399; 03-18-2017 at 09:21 PM.
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