Do you eventually crave REALLY LOW BASS? - Page 2 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #31 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:27 PM
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Na, doesn't work like that sparky. You make dumb claims, you get responded to, that's the way she goes.

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post #32 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I'm not trying to get into an argument but how can you say most don't like sub 20hz bass?...
I don't know about most but for music systems the below 20hz opportunity is so rare that it is easy to not worry about it. Movie sound effects are a different subject.

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post #33 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:34 PM
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Looking back in the History of Bassheads book,

Back in the 1950's, Vega Associates built an 18 inch corner horn that would hit below 30Hz at 130dB. Somebody wanted that as the cost was incredible also. In 1968, Infinity Reference Systems created the first subwoofer thus releasing the subwoofer scurge that went from obscure audiophiles to cinema with Earthquake. Star Wars rolls out a few years later and the rest is history.

They had a world's fair in the 1930's that used 27 inch woofers in the monster cabinets. Four of those cabinets with 2,000 watts of tube amplification tells me they were really trying to get some bass.

If you need to blame somebody for pushing the bass into your home--his name is Nudell. Want some ribbons with those subs?
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post #34 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:34 PM
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post #35 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:41 PM
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I'm a believer in that if it was cheaper and required less space to get sub 20hz it would be massively more popular.


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post #36 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Decadent_Spectre View Post
Obviously your quite upset about my views. No need to get personal. Someone asked a question, I answered with my views. If you do not like my views then do not reply to me.

I speak what I want, and as for what I do or don't have how is it of relevance in this discussion? You bringing it up is a strange reply to a post about frequency ranges and their relevance to an individual.

Again take your own advice and relax.
If you don't prefer having your views challenged, perhaps you could try posting in a manner that isn't extremely insulting to the majority of the people here.

You could have made the same point originally by saying something like "I don't care about the ULF, and most people I know don't either, so you might want to ask around before spending a bunch of money based on the recommendations of the bassheads around here."

Notice how I didn't mention "showing off" or "elitist" or "fragile ego" or reducing other people's enjoyment to "butt shaking".

On the other hand, if you don't care or just like picking fights, then quit complaining and/or piss off and go way.
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post #37 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 01:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ69 View Post
I don't know about most but for music systems the below 20hz opportunity is so rare that it is easy to not worry about it. Movie sound effects are a different subject.

The OP is asking about subs for an HT build and movie content so that is what I am responding to. If he was asking about a dedicated listening room I would totally agree that most music doesn't reach down into the ULF range. I honestly don't even know what type of system I would use for a dedicated listening room but it would most likely be a ported system with ported subs if I couldn't find a set of full range monsters that provided me with enough bass.

Edit

But my main point was how he brought up people disliking content below 20hz. I just don't see how anyone could make such a claim. It's really not anything to dislike at all especially if the room doesn't have any artifacts.
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post #38 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
Edit But my main point was how he brought up people disliking content below 20hz. I just don't see how anyone could make such a claim. It's really not anything to dislike at all especially if the room doesn't have any artifacts.
For a HT in a DYI forum I agree. It's all about the bass.

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post #39 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by antisuck View Post
If you don't prefer having your views challenged, perhaps you could try posting in a manner that isn't extremely insulting to the majority of the people here.

You could have made the same point originally by saying something like "I don't care about the ULF, and most people I know don't either, so you might want to ask around before spending a bunch of money based on the recommendations of the bassheads around here."

Notice how I didn't mention "showing off" or "elitist" or "fragile ego" or reducing other people's enjoyment to "butt shaking".

On the other hand, if you don't care or just like picking fights, then quit complaining and/or piss off and go way.
It doesn't bother me to have my views challenged, it is unnecessary to make it personal.

Isn't showing off,arguing and egos a lot of what occurs here? Can you honestly say I'm incorrect? I did not mean to offend anyone, rather only state facts. If anyone was offended then that was not my intention.

I'm not the one complaining but perhaps the exchange only proves my point. I take note of your point of phrasing for those who are "sensitive".
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post #40 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trimlock View Post
I'm a believer in that if it was cheaper and required less space to get sub 20hz it would be massively more popular.


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Huh?
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post #41 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 02:16 PM
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I think of it this way,

A home theaters job is to recreate real life as accuratly as possible--it is not for music only so real life demands more of everything to be reproduced properly. I've heard pipe organs, sonic booms from aircraft and massive explosions--although a pipe organ can move you, over a metric ton of C4 literally moved me into a wall.

As you go lower in frequency, you have to increase SPL because it is at the extreme end of hearing abilities. Extreme low frequencies in nature are never good, they are considered a bad thing so the brain is wired to go into survival mode. I had no problem hearing 11Hz at 136dB--and I sure felt it! Get into a well sealed car, fire up a very accurate microphone and measure the frequencies and SPL when you slam the car door. Welcome to the world of ULF.

As with everything in sound, if you want to play you have to pay in money, surface area of you listening space and with ULF, modifiy the room to handle the deep/loud stuff. For me, I know the limits of my space and the limits of my wife putting up with subwoofers so went for 16 to 18Hz and hope to hit reference at 20Hz. Not sure how the room will handle it, might have to redo some drywall in spots. The no go zone of my house is 10.6Hz, you could call it the Fs of my bedroom.

When people ask me about HT systems, I just respond to look at what THX considers a home theater. Starting there is probably a good idea as it should give you the experience the movie mixers intended. Going beyond that is your own choice but it will get much larger, much faster if you chase ULF.
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post #42 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 02:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Bassment View Post
Lol what. Literally everyone uses a high pass filter. Everyone

Unbeknown to us all we Hipass, most equipment doesn't pass these ULF. WTS, I use no Hipass with my sealed system, not boasting, jus say'n :0)
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post #43 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 03:02 PM
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Well here's my first input on a subject here, rather cool one at that.


Love bass! crave it I do, but not to be overbearing either, I don't do that party mode style though would be funny at 120dB + @ 60Hz.
My room I have is smallish a 5 x 4 meter room (for now) and ill never "hear" the completed wave anyway correctly of anything under 50ish it feels, I'm guessing by ear but cant be far off, from throwing 20Hz around a bit to much the rooms walls have literally been ripped out somewhat and the closest wall was almost hanging off and when screwed and reinforced back in to place, the wall was about an inch out of the studs near the sub, being 3 meters from the Subwoofer isn't ideal for me you need distance I need distance and a stronger room.
Anyone know on the top of the head the maths on the frequency and the wave completion distance, I have never looked it up, but isn't it close 20Hz needs almost 20 meters. Never bothered as I knew the room I have for now its just pointless to calculate where the 20Hz lands as it will be somewhere inside a neighbors house that wave completion happens. Also seen 20HZ and the effect of on a shed around 15 meters away from the SUB25 but in the SUB25 firing line, a small tin shed moved actually visible to us from that 15 meters away inside, like someone was violently trying to shake it (was moving over an inch and half if you compare it to a woofers excursion), sound does some crazy stuff any one seen that?


My Paradigm Signature Sub25 on a 20AMP / 240 Volt or aka 4800 watt outlet on a dedicated circuit, though the SUB really only needs 15 amp 3600 watts, the recommendation to put it on the 20 was strong, same with some full range amps like my Music Fidelity, I don't understand why that is at all, maybe the sine wave different or something with 20 amp.
Power of the SUB25 is 3KW RMS @ 4 OHM or a cool even 4HP!, 7KW and a close to a flat 9HP peak (who counts that peak figure really though) ,says it can do 9Hz, anyone felt or heard 9Hz at home or in a demo?
I don't believe this SUB can fully do that, could be due to placement and size constraints again. 15 maybe this sub could do easy but then you get the problem of the preamp or source not processing more than the 20 > 20k it wouldn't matter, and sheesh you would need a big room to cross a 20hz or god forbid 15Hz or 9Hz, a lot of factors there around bass but on the mental side of things bass is meant to make you feel powerful as per findings how it effects the mind so craving that wouldn't be a far fetched. One of the best setups bass wise had 2 x SUB25's backing the front 2 speakers, I think from memory that setup has the Signature Paradigm Towers for around $11,0000 (300W RMS @ 8 OHM) + a Paradigm SUB 25 to back each (so left and right have 3600 Watt RMS @ 4 OHM each!), is impressive but the subs could easily overpower those big fronts if you go anything over 40 Hz up. but use them 40 or 30 and under to fill the gaps of those speakers, what I heard was amazing, stereo SUBS makes a massive difference as that brings true direction back where a single SUB rear right or whatever the sub technically imbalances a pair of stereo speakers, what music is generally listened to by audiophiles.


What's the deepest or best sounding bass sample on a song you have heard? here is my favourites, I'd love to know some songs special to you excursion fiends such as these. Always looking to break a cabinet or rip a wall down again. 3KW, 4HP, 7KW Peak.


Taboo by Peter Gabriel (Just deep dark cracks of bass)
Beneath Every Depth by Combichrist (literally an earthquake simulator)
Tempest by Juno Reactor (wild excursion fest) are some I feel should be shared.


I'm not the best at writing and trying to convey this and add something is challenge and hoping I make sense! this topic definitely caught the eye!
But yeah please, any room breaking songs that you guys love and have cravings to listen to again, please share!

Cheers !


Patrick (Paddy on the weekends)
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post #44 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 03:13 PM
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post #45 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 03:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pat0777 View Post
Well here's my first input on a subject here, rather cool one at that.


Love bass! crave it I do, but not to be overbearing either, I don't do that party mode style though would be funny at 120dB + @ 60Hz.
My room I have is smallish a 5 x 4 meter room (for now) and ill never "hear" the completed wave anyway correctly of anything under 50ish it feels, I'm guessing by ear but cant be far off, from throwing 20Hz around a bit to much the rooms walls have literally been ripped out somewhat and the closest wall was almost hanging off and when screwed and reinforced back in to place, the wall was about an inch out of the studs near the sub, being 3 meters from the Subwoofer isn't ideal for me you need distance I need distance and a stronger room.
Anyone know on the top of the head the maths on the frequency and the wave completion distance, I have never looked it up, but isn't it close 20Hz needs almost 20 meters. Never bothered as I knew the room I have for now its just pointless to calculate where the 20Hz lands as it will be somewhere inside a neighbors house that wave completion happens. Also seen 20HZ and the effect of on a shed around 15 meters away from the SUB25 but in the SUB25 firing line, a small tin shed moved actually visible to us from that 15 meters away inside, like someone was violently trying to shake it (was moving over an inch and half if you compare it to a woofers excursion), sound does some crazy stuff any one seen that?


My Paradigm Signature Sub25 on a 20AMP / 240 Volt or aka 4800 watt outlet on a dedicated circuit, though the SUB really only needs 15 amp 3600 watts, the recommendation to put it on the 20 was strong, same with some full range amps like my Music Fidelity, I don't understand why that is at all, maybe the sine wave different or something with 20 amp.
Power of the SUB25 is 3KW RMS @ 4 OHM or a cool even 4HP!, 7KW and a close to a flat 9HP peak (who counts that peak figure really though) ,says it can do 9Hz, anyone felt or heard 9Hz at home or in a demo?
I don't believe this SUB can fully do that, could be due to placement and size constraints again. 15 maybe this sub could do easy but then you get the problem of the preamp or source not processing more than the 20 > 20k it wouldn't matter, and sheesh you would need a big room to cross a 20hz or god forbid 15Hz or 9Hz, a lot of factors there around bass but on the mental side of things bass is meant to make you feel powerful as per findings how it effects the mind so craving that wouldn't be a far fetched. One of the best setups bass wise had 2 x SUB25's backing the front 2 speakers, I think from memory that setup has the Signature Paradigm Towers for around $11,0000 (300W RMS @ 8 OHM) + a Paradigm SUB 25 to back each (so left and right have 3600 Watt RMS @ 4 OHM each!), is impressive but the subs could easily overpower those big fronts if you go anything over 40 Hz up. but use them 40 or 30 and under to fill the gaps of those speakers, what I heard was amazing, stereo SUBS makes a massive difference as that brings true direction back where a single SUB rear right or whatever the sub technically imbalances a pair of stereo speakers, what music is generally listened to by audiophiles.


What's the deepest or best sounding bass sample on a song you have heard? here is my favourites, I'd love to know some songs special to you excursion fiends such as these. Always looking to break a cabinet or rip a wall down again. 3KW, 4HP, 7KW Peak.


Taboo by Peter Gabriel (Just deep dark cracks of bass)
Beneath Every Depth by Combichrist (literally an earthquake simulator)
Tempest by Juno Reactor (wild excursion fest) are some I feel should be shared.


I'm not the best at writing and trying to convey this and add something is challenge and hoping I make sense! this topic definitely caught the eye!
But yeah please, any room breaking songs that you guys love and have cravings to listen to again, please share!

Cheers !


Patrick (Paddy on the weekends)
Here's my room at 9hz where the LG clone starts to roll off (7hz) but am flat to there with a max spl up over 130db at the seats. If I didn't want it completely flat then it would be over 140db at the seats. There are trade offs in everything lol.

And that is ONLY using just over 60cuft of cabinet space in a 6300cuft room (35'x18'x10').



It can be heard very easily and not just felt. My room doesn't have any rattles since I built it to contain the pressure. It moves for sure but no nasty artifacts are heard while it's digging down low.
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post #46 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 03:37 PM
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Eventually crave?
What is this "eventually" stuff you talk about? I thought it was "always crave". hehe

I have to admit... I do like Irene and Bass I love u, more than I should!
Both excite the 5-10hz region.

Nah, this thread pops up about every other month. It always has the same conclusion:
That 15hz is "deep enough" and is still "practically achievable."

Unless you don't have the space, there is no reason NOT to port a UM-18 to 15hz for the average person.

I can't ever see me giving up on sealed or IB to which over to 15hz ported. I like single digit bass too much to give it up.

That said...
I gained something like 30db@15hz by converting one LMS-18 from sealed to horned, something ridiculous like that anyway...
Protecting such an expensive and irreplaceable driver via a horn is a good approach, as bottoming them out sealed is fairly easy to do. But not so in a horn, it's well protected by a HPF and air back-forces.
I will be adding more 21's to "make up" for the converted LMS-18's.

Additionally, as I move away from Behringer and Crown and move towards FP's, I'm gaining more SPL in the single digits.
The 14k is flat to 2hz and the 10k is flat to 7hz. iTechs are 7hz and powersoft K's are 4hz I believe...

I don't run any HPF on my sealed's. Only the horn sub.(Just like you would a ported.)
Right now I'm flat to 4hz, but that may hit 2hz once the FP switch-over is completed.

I don't think aiming below 15hz should be a "goal" for the average person.
Porting a $200 cone to 15hz is fairly trivial. Takes 1-2 sheets of plywood. DONE!

But getting lots of <15hz is very expensive because it takes SO MANY sealed or IB'ed cones and flat amps and flat sources in order to get enough SPL for it to be "usable".
It's just way too expensive and big to stomach for most.
and on top of all that, there is the missing content below 30hz, which is almost a topic onto itself.
But add the combination of the two together and it makes the idea even less palatable.
$10,000 for 5 seconds of bass, once per movie, and on only the odd 5-star basshead-movie.
Also, <15hz can be easily masked by higher frequencies, especially loud 1-8khz treble or mid-bass!

Getting 1-10hz with ported boxes isn't practical either, the boxes get too big. Look at how big Not's ported boxes are, and those aren't even tuned to 10hz yet!!!

Trying to get 7hz out of an array of 15hz ported subs isn't a practical option either.
You basically have to abandon the idea of <15hz from your mind, or you'll go nuts...

I totally understand people who abandon <15hz stuff for >15hz stuff. It's "deep enough" and still achievable with 2 or 4 18's.

For those that like single digits you already know who you are, and you don't have to convince anyone but yourself.

For a number of years now, JapanDave's system with 8 IB'ed RE's and real Gruppen's has been: "the reference 2Hz system that all others are judged against", and basically, still is...

Few have matched or exceeded it, and even fewer, ever will...

4.25*8*PI*9^2 is a lot of cubic-inches of displacement!

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post #47 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 03:48 PM
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99% of people aren't really exposed to enough <20hz to formulate any thoughts or comparisons on the topic.

The only time they are exposed to such things is when:
-they slam their car door
-a helicopter or 747 flies overhead / air shows / airports
-there is some nearby steam-roller road construction
-they happen to live next to an array of windmill's or a subway or train track
etc
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post #48 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 04:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kgveteran View Post
Unbeknown to us all we Hipass, most equipment doesn't pass these ULF. WTS, I use no Hipass with my sealed system, not boasting, jus say'n :0)
We were talking about ported subs
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post #49 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 04:30 PM
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Some of our systems can dish out a fair amount of ULF.

The HzHorn does 134db@1m corner-loaded @ just 10% power.
It's basically a Ghorn tuned 5hz lower. Instead of 19-20hz it's 14-15hz.

Not a hint of distortion either...
That said, my camera's mic is clipping like crazy here! Unavoidable.

I actually felt ill from making that vid. I actually vomited the very next day.
But... that was because I had the flu and didn't know it at the time. (excuses excuses... I know! hehe )

and that's just one 18...
Now imagine 8 32inchers turned into horns, that would be a truly nutty amount of ULF.
This is AVS DIY, it's not a matter of if; just a matter of when...
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post #50 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 04:37 PM
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I've chased single digits on a concrete slab twice and both times decided to trade that <10hz extension for more SPL 15hz+.

Near-field subs or a suspended floor are game changers though. I decided, after much poking and prodding from a few forum members, to fill that void with some tactile transducers (Crowsons) and should have done that years earlier.

Me personally I'd rather feel <15hz with some TTs than hear the harmonics of a sealed system, but again, I haven't tried near-field yet so I can't speak to that.
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post #51 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 05:37 PM
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I've chased single digits on a concrete slab twice and both times decided to trade that <10hz extension for more SPL 15hz+.

Near-field subs or a suspended floor are game changers though. I decided, after much poking and prodding from a few forum members, to fill that void with some tactile transducers (Crowsons) and should have done that years earlier.

Me personally I'd rather feel <15hz with some TTs than hear the harmonics of a sealed system, but again, I haven't tried near-field yet so I can't speak to that.
Yes I can agree. I'm pretty sure you gave me some advice when I was deciding on a sub and being on a concrete slab as well and a huge room I ended up with a single Orbit Sifter near-field and I couldn't be happier. I have the tactile and the output.
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post #52 of 123 Old 03-11-2017, 09:48 PM
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Low frequencies are abundant in real life, I experience some awesome effects all the time and I wanted that in my theater, mixers should stop filtering them out as they are there naturally. Of course not at 180 dB like a bomb but enough to enjoy. I built my room to get and feel it. I hear the 10hz tone on EoT just as loud as the rest, it is a little slower but it is supposed to be.
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post #53 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 05:59 PM
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This is a hobby of mine. My resources are time based. Based on how much of my "allowance / fun money" I can save over time.

LTD has said and designed about the best money per DIY sub 30hz system available. 1 (or better 2) Marty-whatevers with $200 to 250 drivers in ported cabs with likely a inuke3000dsp (ish) amp.

A fairly large and cheap 18" in the same cab with 600 or so watts with dsp is most need in a 1000 sq.ft. room (scale as necessary). 2 of the same gets you from about 85% to 92.25%

Most should be plenty happy with this if appropriately placed in a room and call it a day. I am finishing builds for my father and get away home as we speak....

Most that experience sub 15 hz with noticable authority and if they have the space / time / funds over time may decide to pursure that if it's their hobby.

For my home theater I have decided to continue to head down the sub 15hz zone. If that requires more amps, subs, seat riser, gelatan, near-field, better arse shakers (i have fun auro-pros per seat now - only good to 20hz ish - not good enough?).

I play a low "b" bass guitar in front of a 2 12" ported 300 watt cab for 30 years now. Low b is about 20 hz... For music 20 hz is plenty. For "Fing" Irene... not so much. Go for 7 hz?

For me it comes down to my theater room ( can't destroy living space above - serious issue) / budget over time (no real limit with realistic amps and drivers?) / space (largest constraint for me) / and desire to continue to explore the rabbit hole

I'm likely done with my next round of upgrades. Give me 4 years.
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post #54 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow, lots to ponder.

Thanks for the great discussion everyone.

I sure wasn't aware of some of the finer technical details regarding reproducing those lowest frequencies. For instance a concrete slab vs wood floor (yup I'm on a basement slab alright, with concrete block walls). My HT is in one 13x13' corner of a totally open bsmt, about 10,000 ft3. LOL can I have any more strikes against me?



It's my space, so there aren't any major WAF issues (lucky me!), but there are budget constraints, time constraints, and woodworking skill issues (unlucky me). I do have a friend who might be able to help me with the latter tho.

My weakest link right now is in the subwoofer department. I have a pair of PSW-505's that are pretty good for music, but just flop around when asked to reproduce anything very loud or very low in a movie soundtrack.

With a (paltry) initial budget of $1200 and realizing that <15 hz is likely out of my reach at present (correct me if I'm wrong pleeeze pleeeze), my initial thought is to start with a pair of Full Martys (UMX 18's + an iNuke 6000DSP). Place one center front and the other back left in the corner?

Do you think this is the best route to go given my current budget? Then later move the front Marty to back right and add a couple of Marty Cubes up front when funds allow? Man this really makes the head spin!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
J&H
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post #55 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:25 PM
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yeah, interesting thread.


with the extra space you have = i would look into 2 of those LARGE horn loaded subs.

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post #56 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:30 PM
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If you really want low bass and you have an extra 15000 dollars to spend try the TRW-17 it goes down to 1Hz it uses essentially the entire room as a subwoofer or you could go with a SVS PB16-Ultra for 2500 dollars.
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post #57 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:31 PM
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I haven't met a person yet who doesn't enjoy <20hz bass on a suspended floor. Throwing cash and bass at a concrete slab is like chasing a unicorn. Its better to get more output >16hz and invest in transducers if your on concrete.
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post #58 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll & Hyde View Post
Thanks for the great discussion everyone.

I sure wasn't aware of some of the finer technical details regarding reproducing those lowest frequencies. For instance a concrete slab vs wood floor (yup I'm on a basement slab alright, with concrete block walls). My HT is in one 13x13' corner of a totally open bsmt, about 10,000 ft3. LOL can I have any more strikes against me?



It's my space, so there aren't any major WAF issues (lucky me!), but there are budget constraints, time constraints, and woodworking skill issues (unlucky me). I do have a friend who might be able to help me with the latter tho.

My weakest link right now is in the subwoofer department. I have a pair of PSW-505's that are pretty good for music, but just flop around when asked to reproduce anything very loud or very low in a movie soundtrack.

With a (paltry) initial budget of $1200 and realizing that <15 hz is likely out of my reach at present (correct me if I'm wrong pleeeze pleeeze), my initial thought is to start with a pair of Full Martys (UMX 18's + an iNuke 6000DSP). Place one center front and the other back left in the corner?

Do you think this is the best route to go given my current budget? Then later move the front Marty to back right and add a couple of Marty Cubes up front when funds allow? Man this really makes the head spin!

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
J&H
If nearfield is an option (ie firing 3" away into your seats and your mains are good to 60hz (avoid localizing issues), plan on going that route. The shorter the distance between your ears and your subs the better. You will hear more of the bass and less of the room interacting with the bass, and other benefits like your fillings will shake loose.
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post #59 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:50 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Fabricator View Post
yeah, interesting thread.


with the extra space you have = i would look into 2 of those LARGE horn loaded subs.
Thanks. I have been researching the TUBA's, but man that is a big project for a first-timer.

Now if I could talk my buddy into building them for me...

J&H
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post #60 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 08:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BlackRoseAnarchy View Post
you could go with a SVS PB16-Ultra for 2500 dollars.
Funny you mention that. The review of this baby is what led me to this forum in the first place!

J&H
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