Do you eventually crave REALLY LOW BASS? - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 09:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
If nearfield is an option (ie firing 3" away into your seats and your mains are good to 60hz (avoid localizing issues), plan on going that route. The shorter the distance between your ears and your subs the better. You will hear more of the bass and less of the room interacting with the bass, and other benefits like your fillings will shake loose.
Funny story about nearfields. My first experience with nearfields was back in the late 70's at a fave club of ours (OK OK it was a Disco, sheeesh). Our favorite table was in reality a huge double horn subwoofer (with a table top) that rattled our drinks and vibrated our (ahem bellbottom) pantlegs the whole night. Have been hooked on bass ever since!

But alas, no place for nearfields in my setup, as the MLP is actually a treadmill (with an exercise bike on one side and a bike trainer on the other LOL!). I watch movies while working out to fight the boredom.

My buddies tell me I really need to replace all that with a nice cushy sofa! Bwahahaha

I do compromise sometimes and set a high-back stool on the treadmill deck when I just want to watch (or listen).

But this all means there's no place for nearfields. Except for the possibility of using the ceiling joists up above and turning them into cabinets. Distance from driver to ear would be threee feet. Any thoughts on that anyone? I could probably do a pair of 15's. Hmmm.

Thanks for the recommendations!
J&H
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post #62 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 10:00 PM
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Subs 3 feet over your head?

I think you'll fit in here quite well, the rabbit hole is to your left!

You can do it disco style and weave ropes to make a sub basket--can you dig it?

It always made me nervous to mount something heavy and vibrates over my cranium--just kinda freaks me out.

You could build a raised floor to put your exercise equipment on and mount subs that way. Going to have to build some stout construction but would probably be easier and safer than flown subs. All depends on your roof, beams and if the sub will blow shingles off the roof.

Good luck!
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post #63 of 123 Old 03-12-2017, 11:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll & Hyde View Post
Funny you mention that. The review of this baby is what led me to this forum in the first place!

J&H
At $1200 u could do 2 marty's with the u-18s and even an inuke 3000dsp and have a good system to either enjoy or add onto.

Blow what you have now away by about 6 to 8x... or a bit more under 20hz. Keep them close for more tactile feedback.

Then save for bigger subs, mains, arse shakers, projector, screen, riser, comfier seats, room treatments, blackout materials, bar, and then save to gut it all and add on. That's where I am at now after 3 years of building (4th year after start of design).
It is hard to tear apart the room to make improvements.. dust, mess and at times lack of theater!
Enjoy.
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post #64 of 123 Old 03-13-2017, 12:24 AM
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Can go 20s, and I don't really appreciate it. I love the impact of higher frequencies with greater SPL, especially in shorter bursts. 30Hz for some chill stuff (music), 45 for disco and DNB, 65 Hz for chest pounding back hitting psy, and 100+Hz for some live music blink-forcing bass. There is no love under 30Hz for me. And it is cracking my ceiling too...
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post #65 of 123 Old 03-13-2017, 04:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll & Hyde View Post
Funny story about nearfields. My first experience with nearfields was back in the late 70's at a fave club of ours (OK OK it was a Disco, sheeesh). Our favorite table was in reality a huge double horn subwoofer (with a table top) that rattled our drinks and vibrated our (ahem bellbottom) pantlegs the whole night. Have been hooked on bass ever since!

But alas, no place for nearfields in my setup, as the MLP is actually a treadmill (with an exercise bike on one side and a bike trainer on the other LOL!). I watch movies while working out to fight the boredom.

My buddies tell me I really need to replace all that with a nice cushy sofa! Bwahahaha

I do compromise sometimes and set a high-back stool on the treadmill deck when I just want to watch (or listen).

But this all means there's no place for nearfields. Except for the possibility of using the ceiling joists up above and turning them into cabinets. Distance from driver to ear would be threee feet. Any thoughts on that anyone? I could probably do a pair of 15's. Hmmm.

Thanks for the recommendations!
J&H
Or... Build a riser for the treadmill that has subs in it ;-)
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post #66 of 123 Old 03-13-2017, 07:30 AM
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Welcome to the Rabbit Hole of deep smooth clean bass. May I suggest you take a look at JTR Speaker. They make some of the best performing subs our there commercially. Prices are very reasonable for what you get. Be Forewarned. This path can be expensive if you go about it incrementally. Better and cheaper in the long run to go big first.

Official JTR Speakers Subwoofer Thread
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post #67 of 123 Old 03-13-2017, 08:26 AM
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Different people have different goals--or, more importantly, different rooms.

Doesn't matter what your end goal is, your room is what dictates what is feasible for you in terms of frequency response. If you're in a 30ft by 30ft room with a concrete floor, you're going to need a literal TON of subwoofers to get 10hz with enough authority to make it worth while, and as such you're better off chasing 16-17hz with serious authority via large ported boxes. Meanwhile, if your room is 15x18 on a suspended wooden floor, a few um18s will get the job done for under $1500.

It's all about picking the right tool for the job.

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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
This path can be expensive if you go about it incrementally. Better and cheaper in the long run to go big first.
There is much truth to this statement. You will blow through a few grand QUICKLY if you buy what you can afford now and upgrade it later. Buy what you WANT from the jump off. If you go DIY and use an iNuke, buy the 6kdsp rather than the 3k to give yourself room for another sub that you WILL eventually add (even if you swear it will never happen...it will...trust me.)

Best way to not end up broke with this hobby is to not just plan out your theater for now, but plan it out for the future.

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post #68 of 123 Old 03-13-2017, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Jekyll & Hyde View Post
Funny you mention that. The review of this baby is what led me to this forum in the first place!

J&H
If you value your wallet and don't want to continually second guess your equipment, I would recommend you pretend you never found this forum. You have been duly warned

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post #69 of 123 Old 03-13-2017, 11:33 AM
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For those that want HP filters below 20Hz, has anyone here made up a Filter inserted on the input of the amp ? If the amp has input impedance of 20kOhms, then that would be applied for the formula instead of VC resistance.


http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esa...ies/ibsub.html


Quote:
So, now you have determined the high pass crossover frequency that should keep the driver safely within its design limits for the number of drivers and output power of the amp you are using. Since the point is to preserve headroom in your system, you want to filter the subwoofer output signal before it gets to your amp. If you are using parametric equalization (such as the BFD), you'll want to place the filter before your EQ to help keep it from clipping the signal that it passes to your amp. Creating the actual high pass filter is a very simple exercise - you just need to insert a capacitor and a resistor into the signal cable. The good news is that the resistor is already there for you - it is the imput impedance of your equalizer or amplifier (whichever is first in your signal path for your sub) and it is indicated by the input impedance (check the spec sheet) of your equalizer or amp. The input impedance of my Behringer DPS1124P is given as 30kohm for an unbalanced (RCA) cable. Then use the first order crossover calculator on the ApICS web page to enter the input impedance of your EQ as the High Pass Impedance (30,000 ohms), plug some bogus number into the Low Pass Impedance field (since we have no interest in a low pass filter), type in your desired high pass frequency as determined with your WinISD model (11 Hertz), and click the Calculate button. The C1 value will provide the proper sized capacitor to achieve your desired high pass crossover point. For me, this works out to about 0.48uF. If you are using an unbalanced signal cable (standard RCA plug), place this cap in series with the hot lead of your signal cable as shown in the schematic for the first order high pass filter and you're all set! If you are using a balanced signal cable (standard XLR plug), place this value of capacitance in series with BOTH the positive lead AND the negative leads. It's really just that simple and now you are ready to move on to using REW to set your equalizer.
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post #70 of 123 Old 03-14-2017, 04:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 18Hurts View Post
You could build a raised floor to put your exercise equipment on and mount subs that way. Going to have to build some stout construction but would probably be easier and safer than flown subs.
Hmmm. I hadn't considered a SUB Floor subfloor.
Lots of benefits including more tactile feel. I'll have to figure out a design. Let's see, six inches high by...

Thanks for the suggestions,
J&H
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post #71 of 123 Old 03-15-2017, 03:44 AM - Thread Starter
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At $1200 u could do 2 marty's with the u-18s and even an inuke 3000dsp and have a good system to either enjoy or add onto.
Yup, I think something like that is most likely what I'll be starting out with (Martys + the 6000DSP). Lots of boom for the buck.

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Blow what you have now away by about 6 to 8x... or a bit more under 20hz. Keep them close for more tactile feedback.
Yeah, I really need deeper bass than what the PSW505's can produce. As far as placement goes, about the best I can do is 6' front and center. Put one there and one in the back left corner. For starters

J&H
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post #72 of 123 Old 03-15-2017, 03:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Petr Berka View Post
Can go 20s, and I don't really appreciate it. I love the impact of higher frequencies with greater SPL, especially in shorter bursts. 30Hz for some chill stuff (music), 45 for disco and DNB, 65 Hz for chest pounding back hitting psy, and 100+Hz for some live music blink-forcing bass. There is no love under 30Hz for me. And it is cracking my ceiling too...
I see what you're getting at. I should make sure I have 30 Hz+ well covered before all else. Roger. Thanks!

J&H
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post #73 of 123 Old 03-15-2017, 04:10 PM
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What a wonderful thread !!!!!!!


I am on a concrete floor.......subs a couple inches from the back of the seating cured most of that....the floor might not vibrate, but the seating does as well as my body.


I also see a mention of recreating true life or as the director intended statements.......while in music this might be true, but with movies I do not agree.


When I see a chopper on screen do a flyby, I would guess I have far exceeded what it would be if the chopper was actually in my room....... Thats not realistic or what the director intended, but everyone sure likes it....


Chest slams.........air seperation and that on the sea ripple effect adds a lot to experiance, intended or not.

I forget the last movie that had the pulsating wave on the ocean feel that made everyone feel a little sea sickish.........but it was great feeling/watching people and the looks they had, even made me a litte dizzy, whitewashed sicky feeling.........OUTSTANDING!

Link to budget Home Theater build

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...i-version.html
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post #74 of 123 Old 03-15-2017, 06:21 PM
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You don't want Marty's with UM18s if you're after 30hz and up bass. I'd go with a pair of B&C 18tbw100-4 and an inuke 6k DSP.

http://www.parts-express.com/bc-18tb...-ohm--294-6008

That will destroy UM18s 30hz+.
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post #75 of 123 Old 03-16-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jekyll & Hyde View Post
Hmmm. I hadn't considered a SUB Floor subfloor.
Lots of benefits including more tactile feel. I'll have to figure out a design. Let's see, six inches high by...

Thanks for the suggestions,
J&H

Support the riser frame off the floor with 1/2" spacers at the corners, and under-build it, to allow the frame to flex.

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post #76 of 123 Old 03-16-2017, 11:59 AM
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^
google "limp riser"

DIY FAN Denon X5200 , ATI A 2000 for 7.4.6 SCATMOS/DSU/SHARP 80" LED/LCD
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post #77 of 123 Old 03-16-2017, 12:10 PM
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^
google "limp riser"
That's just sick...
Do NOT google "limp riser".... very disturbing....
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post #78 of 123 Old 03-16-2017, 01:12 PM
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^what was i thinking . . ?http://www.avsforum.com/forum/images/smilies/eek.gif

i was hoping somebody would jump at that . .

"flimsy riser"

iirc eng-399 posted a build / some pics
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www.avsforum.com/forum/155-diy-speakers-subs/1485120-submaximus-large-front-loaded-horn
http://www.avsforum.com/forum/155-di...orn-build.html
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post #79 of 123 Old 03-16-2017, 02:33 PM
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^ Ha ha... "Flimsy Riser" isnt much better to be honest.... lol
Though, far less disturbing google results... Whatever you do, dont click on the "Images" tab.... There are some things you cant un-see....
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post #80 of 123 Old 03-16-2017, 03:36 PM - Thread Starter
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Dang it Dang it

I got home from work and had a listen to The Glitch Mob's "Bad Wings" off their "Drink the Sea" album (techno-electronica), and you know what? I JUST GOTTA HAVE LOW BASS! No ifs, ands, or buts. It may not happen right away, but I had better plan on it.


I know my current Polks don't get down too far, but there was just enough that I could tell there was more down there!!! A lot more. And I want it.


So after that I just had to play Track 1 (Jim Keltner's drum improv) off of Sheffield Lab's "Drum and Track Disc." If you ever want to feel good about your system just play anything off of this remarkable disc (at reference levels preferably!).


Well, gotta go search my soul some more.
J&H
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post #81 of 123 Old 03-17-2017, 10:13 AM
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At some point after the recession in 2009, the goals and philosophies of those building subs on this forum changed. Prior to that, everyone was seeking single digit bass reproduction capability. It changed though to far exceeding reference level capability from 20hz on up.

I never quite understood the shift. Reference level capability from 20-120hz with today's high excursion drivers and ridiculously inexpensive, high wattage amps is easy - like really really easy. But they don't just want to achieve it, their design goal is to vastly exceed it, using multiples to get them 140db+ capability in that range.

I don't get it. Who listens at 20db louder than reference?
Several of us, apparently. It's all about headroom, brah.


But seriously.... I'm not sure where you got the idea that there was a "shift" here at AVS to 20hz and up high SPL. Maybe you're thinking of the 'Marty' craze? Actually, in the past half decade, there has been a shift... to multi-sub systems, sealed. Drivers like your Ava18's and my RLp's (that were in the $350-450 range) and now available for half that price. Well...for the most part. 90% of the way, at the least. It isn't uncommon to see several AVS members with +8 18" sub systems. Dude, I went from dual RLp18 LLT's to fourteen 18's sealed in the exact same room.

Why?

I kinda.... had to. Also because it's fun. But I needed to because I liked the SPL from my LLT's and wanted something at the very least similar if not better. Above 30hz I have ridiculous output, all of which I'll probably never use. But below 30hz....? Ehh. With fourteen 18's in my room.... it's just enough to be adequate to me. But I'm not normal.


Anyway... my point is that I don't agree that the trend has been high output above 20hz around here. If anything, people are chasing extension AND headroom at the same time.
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post #82 of 123 Old 03-17-2017, 03:29 PM
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Several of us, apparently. It's all about headroom, brah.


But seriously.... I'm not sure where you got the idea that there was a "shift" here at AVS to 20hz and up high SPL. Maybe you're thinking of the 'Marty' craze? Actually, in the past half decade, there has been a shift... to multi-sub systems, sealed. Drivers like your Ava18's and my RLp's (that were in the $350-450 range) and now available for half that price. Well...for the most part. 90% of the way, at the least. It isn't uncommon to see several AVS members with +8 18" sub systems. Dude, I went from dual RLp18 LLT's to fourteen 18's sealed in the exact same room.

Why?

I kinda.... had to. Also because it's fun. But I needed to because I liked the SPL from my LLT's and wanted something at the very least similar if not better. Above 30hz I have ridiculous output, all of which I'll probably never use. But below 30hz....? Ehh. With fourteen 18's in my room.... it's just enough to be adequate to me. But I'm not normal.


Anyway... my point is that I don't agree that the trend has been high output above 20hz around here. If anything, people are chasing extension AND headroom at the same time.
I totally agree. Before me, bosso, nate, and notny it was more about horns from what I can remember, mixed in with a few other IB and rotary talk.

I also remember the AV123 vented 15 craze which was a dang good deal for "working" units in great finishes. I still have two cherry units that work great. I haven't looked into the upgrade kits but would be interested in seeing what exactly they entail. Are they worth upgrading for my largish bar room (17'x27'x10')?
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post #83 of 123 Old 03-17-2017, 03:47 PM
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It started with the tapped horns and that lasted about a year. FR on those was ragged. It was prior to that time frame when multi sealed or low tuned ported were what everyone was doing for extension.


The Marty seems to have become very popular, and it looks like some folks who did build multi sealed subs seem to be changing them over to ported. I'm just not seeing the low tuning.


What FR are you achieving with 14 sealed 18" subs? If you have the extension but not the output, your amps probably can't handle the EQ. If you have more output than you will ever use above 30hz, and not enough below 30hz, and are using 14 sealed 18" subs, sell them as is and make a bunch of money. Then build 6-8 large ported subs tuned to 12hz. You'll still have more output than you can use above 30hz, more than you can use below 30hz, and you'll have extra money in your pocket.


Not to start crap again on here lol, but sealed is really only for those tight on space. If you are doing 14 18s, you aren't tight on space.
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post #84 of 123 Old 03-17-2017, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
If you are doing 14 18s, you aren't tight on space.


Scott's Wall of Bass Immersive Audio HT Room


Dude. I have no more room because of the sealed subs.



I have no more room in here for LLT's either. Sealed was the only option for what I wanted.

But like the subject of this thread, I want MOAR!!!

Fourteen LLT's is next.
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post #85 of 123 Old 03-17-2017, 04:13 PM
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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
It started with the tapped horns and that lasted about a year. FR on those was ragged. It was prior to that time frame when multi sealed or low tuned ported were what everyone was doing for extension.



The Marty seems to have become very popular, and it looks like some folks who did build multi sealed subs seem to be changing them over to ported. I'm just not seeing the low tuning.
Ah, yeah. I somehow forgot about that. It was a short-lived fad here. THT's were real hot, then not. Then more DIY horns came about. I think it turned off a lot of newbies cuz things sure picked up around here both when the cheap 18's started rolling out and the flat packs were readily available. Many, many, many people were picking up 4cuft flat packs and an HT18 or equivalent and just scaling up for output.

The Marty systems AFAIK were not tuned very low. Upper teens.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
What FR are you achieving with 14 sealed 18" subs? If you have the extension but not the output, your amps probably can't handle the EQ. If you have more output than you will ever use above 30hz, and not enough below 30hz, and are using 14 sealed 18" subs, sell them as is and make a bunch of money. Then build 6-8 large ported subs tuned to 12hz. You'll still have more output than you can use above 30hz, more than you can use below 30hz, and you'll have extra money in your pocket.
Flat to the single digits. Same as the LLT's. Now with MUCH more output above Fb. Same-ish output around Fb. A quick sim "confirms" that roughly twelve of these drivers I'm using equals output around the LLT Fb. Those LLT's set the bar too high.

I would build more LLT's if I could physically fit them in my room and actually allow it to still function as an HT room.

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Originally Posted by SteveCallas View Post
Not to start crap again on here lol, but sealed is really only for those tight on space.
Ehhh...

Not sure if agree with you but I won't argue it either. You've earned a pass from me on this one.
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post #86 of 123 Old 03-18-2017, 07:48 AM
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Scott, I am actually going backwards, I sold all my SIs and going 4 XXX ported 18s tuned to 10hz. In my small room 2 is all I need.
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Marantz 7702 Atmos
Outlaw 7140 and 5000
Speakers- DIY mini arrays for fronts and BFM TLAH for surrounds
subs 2 XXX ported SLLT powered by IPR2-7500.
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post #87 of 123 Old 03-18-2017, 08:01 AM
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Well I'm not going backwards lol. I'm adding a minimum of two stacks of Seaton 18s in the rear corners if not two stacks in each rear corner lol. So upping my sealed count to over 30 18s and 21s combined. This is at the request of the designer who just happens to be as crazy about bass as us crazies.
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post #88 of 123 Old 03-18-2017, 09:58 AM
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I am changing as I realized during heavy bass movies my Inuke was barely lighting up the LEDS and I was amp limited! I was not even using half of the inuke and I could use 12000 watts! So I am putting 2-4 XXX 18s and porting it to 10hz. My room is 1400 plus cubes. Start from there. I want to try the ported XXX as it measured very well in that large enclosure. Mine is even bigger hence the lower tune. I am starting my line array build too. I know the dual DTS-10s were plenty in my room up to 12 dB hot and dual XXX ported is even stronger(not midbass).
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post #89 of 123 Old 03-18-2017, 11:23 AM
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I wouldn't call that going backwards.



TL;DR

So anyway....to answer the title of the thread. Yes.

Many of us have a "problem" with bass. A good problem!
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post #90 of 123 Old 03-18-2017, 12:19 PM
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I have now, 4-12`s at 700 watts rms combined on the plate amps, supposedly 2500 dynamic whatever that means.


It produces crazy bass in a 12x12 sealed room.......I can not imagine a bunch A 18`s....



1,10 gave way to a 12, which gave way to 4, 12`s, which made me want a huge low tuned 18, which gave me the idea of 2 ,15`s directly behind the seats, which leads to buying amps, building boxes.........which birthed the discovery of tactile transducers, which in turn gives way to building a platform..........


I am not sure there is ever a end........but it sure is FUN!
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Link to budget Home Theater build

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...i-version.html
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