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Old 03-18-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MKtheater View Post
I am changing as I realized during heavy bass movies my Inuke was barely lighting up the LEDS and I was amp limited! I was not even using half of the inuke and I could use 12000 watts! So I am putting 2-4 XXX 18s and porting it to 10hz. My room is 1400 plus cubes. Start from there. I want to try the ported XXX as it measured very well in that large enclosure. Mine is even bigger hence the lower tune. I am starting my line array build too. I know the dual DTS-10s were plenty in my room up to 12 dB hot and dual XXX ported is even stronger(not midbass).
If I was smart and not amp/voltage limited I would do the same as long as Walter OK'd it since my room is over 6,300 cubes! But being that I have as much power available as I do, buying more amps and sealed Seaton stacks will get me where I'm wanting to go, why not lol. But it will cost a lot more for the sub 10hz range I love so much. I still haven't chosen which amps to use for all the subs since I'm in search of the lowest roll off possible in a 220v 10,000 watt+ housing.

Since I have two rows on the resonator platforms it's even more golden and can easily add a very short platform for the front row that's on slab if really want but even sitting there now provides great tactile feedback directly on the carpet. I only watch 3D movies in the front row too so not overly concerned about that anyway.

In my smaller room (yet to be designed or constructed) that will be dedicated for 1-3 people gaming/movies the walls will be constructed so that the openings for horn loaded or vented cabs will be flush with the rest of the side walls for a DBA from side wall to side wall. They will be stacked and flown overhead as well for XXX near field fill in "if" OK'd by designer since have access above for such an arrangement. I don't know if I can increase the ceiling height from 10' in the entire room yet as there are stringers tied into LVLs as ceiling/attic joists. BUT I will tie in either an IB SBA/DBA or Rotary sub to keep the ULF alive like I originally wanted to do in the 6,300cuft theater room. This will just be much easier and will pay off since I watch a lot of movies by myself (wife can't stand scary movies) so can design around the largest OLED or LED set affordable since the space will be so small. Acoustic plan is DIY deep skylines for 100% coverage of useable wall space. Right now I have aproximately 22'x16'x10' of space to totally do room within a room construction but could gain more when add the new garages so way more than enough room to even use 2x12 lumber all around if needed. Hell I guess I could technically use total LVL construction or steel even though I don't have much experience with steel. But there will need to be some super strong walls to house a DBA of horn loaded cabs(thinking Orbit Shifter or similar) or vented cabs. I've seen a vented DBA but not a horn loaded one so it has me intrigued to say the least. I just don't see any way around using a DBA in such a small space and the need for extreme mid bass makes the idea that much greater, to me anyway lol. Something I've also thought about for the ULF is a SBA or DBA using the ceiling and floor but have no idea how that would integrate with the side wall DBA. I doubt I could do a SBA or DBA using the front/rear wall because of the flat panel being in the way. It's all way over my head how to integrate two similar systems and a rotary sub could be the easiest way to go so will just leave that part up to the experts for sure.

But that goes to show I still keep wanting MOAR extreme bass even after having ten 21" subs that make most tap out before reaching their maximum output. So, just depends on if you are a true basshead or not I guess. I've ruined my hearing with bass and yesterday was a perfect example of it. I asked my doctor to look into my right ear while I was there for a routine checkup because I thought I might have been getting an infection. It must have been the first time he had actually looked closely at my eardrum because it freaked him out when he saw all the little bubbles oozing off of it. He said, are these bubbles normal for you or do we need to see what's going on here. They are quite normal "now" for my right eardrum and my wife (a physician) freaked out when she saw them the first time. It's all fun and games but is also dangerous when exposed for too long of periods like I did when cruising country roads as a teen with 155+dbs for hours at a time each and every day while numbing brain cells too lol. So which is actually worse for our health numbing brain cells for a few hours or putting high SPL systems in our vehicles and homes? That's not for anyone but ourselves to answer unless one is under age of course. ;-)

There are limits I personally wouldn't want to expose myself to anymore now that I'm older that's for sure. I sat in a guys truck while the shop was working on my car not too long ago and his system(strictly spl) was tuned to 60hz @165db with 6 12s. That hurt and wouldn't do it again. I can take anything in the 150-160db range; although, the last few dbs-158,159,160 start to hurt in the upper frequency range 60-80hz, I wouldn't ride around and listen to it like I did as a teen. Or now that my ears are bad it could just "seem" louder and hurt a lot worse than it did back 15 years ago. For me, a nice 145-155db range is still fun for a few songs here and there and 155-160db just for demos only.
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Old 03-18-2017, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
220v 10,000 watt+ housing.
ten 21" subs
Get rid of the 10k and sealeds.

10 15hz Taped Horned 21's and 5 FP14k's should get you LOTS of bass.

The FP14k is -3db @ 2Hz. Hard to do much better.
and I don't necessarily mean the clone version if you can afford a Gruppen.

Do you need more mid-bass or more ULF, or both?
There are solutions that exist. The Seaton's aren't one of them though...

The rotary woofers are only good for 1-10hz where horned/ported and sealed aren't that "great" at.
Above 13hz, 10 21" taped horns would SMOKE the rotary woofer.

A Ghorn has about 2x the output of a comparable ported sub. 21inch cones in a suitable horn would be no different.

I gained 18db @ 15hz going from sealed to horned, and 6db above 30hz.
I did lose some SPL below 12hz because of that however... which is fixable by re-adding more sealed subs. (There is no free lunch.)

Ported would have only gained me 12db and 0db respectively. So keep that in mind.

Last edited by BassThatHz; 03-18-2017 at 03:41 PM.
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Old 03-18-2017, 04:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post


Scott's Wall of Bass Immersive Audio HT Room


Dude. I have no more room because of the sealed subs.



I have no more room in here for LLT's either. Sealed was the only option for what I wanted.

But like the subject of this thread, I want MOAR!!!

Fourteen LLT's is next.
can't you try NF sub(s) in your space?
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Old 03-18-2017, 06:28 PM
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Old 03-18-2017, 07:03 PM
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Get rid of the 10k and sealeds.

10 15hz Taped Horned 21's and 5 FP14k's should get you LOTS of bass.

The FP14k is -3db @ 2Hz. Hard to do much better.
and I don't necessarily mean the clone version if you can afford a Gruppen.

Do you need more mid-bass or more ULF, or both?
There are solutions that exist. The Seaton's aren't one of them though...

The rotary woofers are only good for 1-10hz where horned/ported and sealed aren't that "great" at.
Above 13hz, 10 21" taped horns would SMOKE the rotary woofer.

A Ghorn has about 2x the output of a comparable ported sub. 21inch cones in a suitable horn would be no different.

I gained 18db @ 15hz going from sealed to horned, and 6db above 30hz.
I did lose some SPL below 12hz because of that however... which is fixable by re-adding more sealed subs. (There is no free lunch.)

Ported would have only gained me 12db and 0db respectively. So keep that in mind.
I'm not using the LG 10q clone for this. I said I "need" something with 10,000 watts+ in one housing that will roll off as low as possible.

I'd rather not use two channel amps just for the sake of space and available 220v circuits/outlets but if the real LG 14k ends up being one of my only options then it might just have to do.

The stacks of Seatons for the main room should do just what I want them to with rack amplification. I'm just distributing my seat to seat FR with them and gaining the sub 6hz content I'm missing out on from my 10Qs. Once the 10Qs are replaced I shouldn't need any extra output anywhere; although, if there needs to be any help Walter says he can handle that with these drivers located in certain positions so I'm not worried.

But of course I could use fewer horn loaded cabs mixed with something else for ULF and get the same end result but that won't work because of space/design goals. This is a 24-32 bed/Atmos channel setup with all the subs being controlled individually through the Altitude so a lot a matrixing with panning will be going on throughout the entire room. Seaton's slim cabinets will be able to fit on the side walls for such integration as well. My only concern as of right now is finding surrounds that will play low enough in my largish room down below 70hz and still have headroom. This will be as much of a full range system as we can make it, one of only a very few and Walter wants to use sealed subs so I'm listening to the Jedi lol.

The room within a room design will most def use loaded subs but still will need to integrate a ULF system too.
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Old 03-19-2017, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I'd rather not use two channel amps just for the sake of space and available 220v circuits/outlets but if the real LG 14k ends up being one of my only options then it might just have to do.
Your options seem limited given the restrictions imposed. The 8ch PowerSoft X8 is 5hz -3db, the 4-ch Crown Itech are likely 7hz -3db.
Other than the Gruppen, I don't know of any other amplifiers close to the +10kW range, that go lower than 5hz.
From a rack power-density perspective, the X8 is in a world of its own. 41kW with PowerSoft's typical low-height design.

There are amps that can do 1Hz or possibly DC, but they ain't anywhere near 10kW.
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Old 03-19-2017, 02:20 PM
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Your options seem limited given the restrictions imposed. The 8ch PowerSoft X8 is 5hz -3db, the 4-ch Crown Itech are likely 7hz -3db.
Other than the Gruppen, I don't know of any other amplifiers close to the +10kW range, that go lower than 5hz.
From a rack power-density perspective, the X8 is in a world of its own. 41kW with PowerSoft's typical low-height design.

There are amps that can do 1Hz or possibly DC, but they ain't anywhere near 10kW.
I wonder what the new LG amps test at. They have loads of new features but that's all I've seen.

I also wonder what the new MC2 and and Quested amps test at. I have an AP2800-4 which is super efficient and guess could test it once get it racked. A few of them would even work or their newer ones.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:21 AM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I've ruined my hearing with bass and yesterday was a perfect example of it. I asked my doctor to look into my right ear while I was there for a routine checkup because I thought I might have been getting an infection. It must have been the first time he had actually looked closely at my eardrum because it freaked him out when he saw all the little bubbles oozing off of it. He said, are these bubbles normal for you or do we need to see what's going on here. They are quite normal "now" for my right eardrum and my wife (a physician) freaked out when she saw them the first time. It's all fun and games but is also dangerous when exposed for too long of periods like I did when cruising country roads as a teen with 155+dbs for hours at a time each and every day while numbing brain cells too lol. So which is actually worse for our health numbing brain cells for a few hours or putting high SPL systems in our vehicles and homes? That's not for anyone but ourselves to answer unless one is under age of course. ;-)

There are limits I personally wouldn't want to expose myself to anymore now that I'm older that's for sure. I sat in a guys truck while the shop was working on my car not too long ago and his system(strictly spl) was tuned to 60hz @165db with 6 12s. That hurt and wouldn't do it again. I can take anything in the 150-160db range; although, the last few dbs-158,159,160 start to hurt in the upper frequency range 60-80hz, I wouldn't ride around and listen to it like I did as a teen. Or now that my ears are bad it could just "seem" louder and hurt a lot worse than it did back 15 years ago. For me, a nice 145-155db range is still fun for a few songs here and there and 155-160db just for demos only.


wow. this is actually kinda scary that you listen that loud. I was demoing my system for a friend (bass only)and I had the meter showing 115dbs and it was uncomfortable for me. I don't think I can listen at 115db for more than a minute before I have to leave as Im very concerned about permanent hearing damage.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I have two all sealed setups that I've played with a high pass filter to simulate a ported tune. I think once I "tuned" higher than 25hz I felt I was missing something. Overall I think I prefer impact over pressurization. In the end it's going to come down to personal preference. What the diy community needs is a way to vary tuning. This is why I like the vbss design as you get to pick from three tunings.
Moving the crossover of a sealed system up to the port tuning frequency of vented designs do not simulate a ported speaker. The output of a ported sub using the exact same driver as a sealed sub adds 10db at the tuning frequency. Over-sized alignments using huge boxes tuned to 16-18hz are not the same as BB4 alignments. In most cases, such deep tunings lose near nothing over 15hz to a sealed sub.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:20 PM
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Moving the crossover of a sealed system up to the port tuning frequency of vented designs do not simulate a ported speaker. The output of a ported sub using the exact same driver as a sealed sub adds 10db at the tuning frequency. Over-sized alignments using huge boxes tuned to 16-18hz are not the same as BB4 alignments. In most cases, such deep tunings lose near nothing over 15hz to a sealed sub.
When you use DSP to tune each system flat in room, the lack of output below the "tune" is close enough to help one understand what they're missing.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:52 PM
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Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
I wonder what the new LG amps test at. They have loads of new features but that's all I've seen.

I also wonder what the new MC2 and and Quested amps test at. I have an AP2800-4 which is super efficient and guess could test it once get it racked. A few of them would even work or their newer ones.
Quested amps are rebadged MC2 AFAIK. As I recall from a convo the MC2 amps filter below 20Hz but you can request them without a filter. MC2 makes a very nice sounding amp, more "Hi-Fi" than any other pro manufacturer that I have heard and I have heard Crowns itechs/macrotechs,Powersofts and real Labs. Only compared the MC2 properly on speakers though, not sure how the MC2 does on bass. Between the Crown,Powersoft and LG, I definitely think the Powersoft is much better sounding on bass (below 100Hz).

The amp you note seems to be a rebadged MC2 E100, more suitable for bass than a speaker. If memory serves it is about 85% eff. You might also be interested in XTA amps, I have not heard them but have heard very good things from ears I trust. They are pricey though, more so than MC2. They have integrated processing and will go down low. Personally I prefer it to the Powersoft X4/8 based on what people told me but if your looking for power density the X8 is hard to beat. All IMO of course.

Hope that helps.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:46 PM
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Quested amps are rebadged MC2 AFAIK. Yea that's why I mentioned them together and having an older one that is specific for Roger Quested's bass rigs/speaker section. As I recall from a convo the MC2 amps filter below 20Hz but you can request them without a filter. I will have to ask Roger about this especially if the big LG amps don't workMC2 makes a very nice sounding amp, more "Hi-Fi" than any other pro manufacturer that I have heard and I have heard Crowns itechs/macrotechs,Powersofts and real Labs. Only compared the MC2 properly on speakers though, not sure how the MC2 does on bass. Between the Crown,Powersoft and LG, I definitely think the Powersoft is much better sounding on bass (below 100Hz).

The amp you note seems to be a rebadged MC2 E100, more suitable for bass than a speaker. If memory serves it is about 85% eff. You might also be interested in XTA amps, I have not heard them but have heard very good things from ears I trust. They are pricey though, more so than MC2. They have integrated processing and will go down low. Personally I prefer it to the Powersoft X4/8 based on what people told me but if your looking for power density the X8 is hard to beat. All IMO of course.

Hope that helps.
Thanks for the info.
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Old 03-20-2017, 08:26 PM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
When you use DSP to tune each system flat in room, the lack of output below the "tune" is close enough to help one understand what they're missing.
To illustrate, my 4 TC sounds LMS-Ultra subs are tuned to 16hz. Adding a filter does not change the max SPL of the system which is excursion limited and that SPL limit is higher than the same 4 subs sealed. At all frequencies above 11hz, my ported system has a higher SPL limit. Output below 16hz doesn't just fall off the map. At 12hz it's -12db for a 4th order filter and only -6db for a 2nd order filter. There are too many variables such as if your system is on a cement slab to tell if you are missing anything below 16hz.

That DSP eq you mention applied to the low end of a sealed system is not going to allow the system output to exceed xmax and thus the sealed system is again SPL limited at the frequencies you think are maintained as flat.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:12 PM
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wow. this is actually kinda scary that you listen that loud. I was demoing my system for a friend (bass only)and I had the meter showing 115dbs and it was uncomfortable for me. I don't think I can listen at 115db for more than a minute before I have to leave as Im very concerned about permanent hearing damage.
From above-I wouldn't ride around and listen to it like I did as a teen. Or now that my ears are bad it could just "seem" louder and hurt a lot worse than it did back 15 years ago. For me, a nice 145-155db range is still fun for a few songs here and there and 155-160db just for demos only.

That is running the bass extremely hot so it's not too bad where today's music focuses on the 35-50hz range. But like I said just for brief periods for fun. Heck my ears are already killed from my teen years.

The point of striving for mad spl from DC to 120ish hz is not only for the ability to turn it up when feel like it but to keep all the equipment running well within it's safe range for maximum life spans. Headroom is never a bad thing especially when the equipment thrown into these systems is far from cheap most of the time. My drivers barely move at all when listening at reference so that a good thing.
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Old 03-20-2017, 09:26 PM
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To illustrate, my 4 TC sounds LMS-Ultra subs are tuned to 16hz. Adding a filter does not change the max SPL of the system which is excursion limited and that SPL limit is higher than the same 4 subs sealed. At all frequencies above 11hz, my ported system has a higher SPL limit. Output below 16hz doesn't just fall off the map. At 12hz it's -12db for a 4th order filter and only -6db for a 2nd order filter. There are too many variables such as if your system is on a cement slab to tell if you are missing anything below 16hz.

That DSP eq you mention applied to the low end of a sealed system is not going to allow the system output to exceed xmax and thus the sealed system is again SPL limited at the frequencies you think are maintained as flat.
All good points except, "There are too many variables such as if your system is on a cement slab to tell if you are missing anything below 16hz."

If one has enough SPL below 16hz then it will be heard as well as felt. Sure many like to feel it just like I do but having the output to actually hear a system play down in the ULF range is something only very few have experienced without other room artifacts destroying the actual sound. It's expensive in medium to larger rooms and the rooms themselves need to be built to withstand such forces which also adds to the costs.

I am perfectly happy with my front row on slab ULF performance because I can actually hear it. Sure I get tactile feedback too that is enjoyable but the pressure on my body plus audible sound is "almost" as enjoyable as a seat on my second or third row risers.
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Old 03-21-2017, 04:23 AM
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To illustrate, my 4 TC sounds LMS-Ultra subs are tuned to 16hz. Adding a filter does not change the max SPL of the system which is excursion limited and that SPL limit is higher than the same 4 subs sealed. At all frequencies above 11hz, my ported system has a higher SPL limit. Output below 16hz doesn't just fall off the map. At 12hz it's -12db for a 4th order filter and only -6db for a 2nd order filter. There are too many variables such as if your system is on a cement slab to tell if you are missing anything below 16hz.

That DSP eq you mention applied to the low end of a sealed system is not going to allow the system output to exceed xmax and thus the sealed system is again SPL limited at the frequencies you think are maintained as flat.
I'm not disputing that ported has an advantage over sealed.
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Old 03-21-2017, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by corradizo View Post
I'm not disputing that ported has an advantage over sealed.
That's not what I'm saying. I'm stating that using some arbitrary cut-off point for the low end of an arbitrary ported system and stating that it models ported vs sealed is not true. Nor is it true that ported systems have no output under the tuning frequency. Ported systems come in all shapes and sizes and no one model tells you what you get in all ported alignments. I've seen ported UM18's tuned to 13hz and they lose nothing to a sealed system using the same driver. While it's true that a high pass filter at the tuning frequency lowers output under tuning, applying EQ to low frequencies on sealed systems to get them flat to that low frquency kills excursion headroom.

Here is NOTNYT's ported LMS-ultra system vs the same drivers sealed and as you see, the sealed system has no SPL advantage from 10hz on up:

Modeled with 13.5hz 3rd order butterworth highpass.

Compared to the sealed subs with 8000w input and 11hz 3rd order filter (I have massive room gain in this area, filter prevents over excursion below 7hz). Both of these signal levels push the subs to almost identical excursion levels.



Excursion:
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Old 03-23-2017, 11:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Get rid of the 10k and sealeds.

10 15hz Taped Horned 21's and 5 FP14k's should get you LOTS of bass.

The FP14k is -3db @ 2Hz. Hard to do much better.
and I don't necessarily mean the clone version if you can afford a Gruppen.

Do you need more mid-bass or more ULF, or both?
There are solutions that exist. The Seaton's aren't one of them though...

The rotary woofers are only good for 1-10hz where horned/ported and sealed aren't that "great" at.
Above 13hz, 10 21" taped horns would SMOKE the rotary woofer.

A Ghorn has about 2x the output of a comparable ported sub. 21inch cones in a suitable horn would be no different.

I gained 18db @ 15hz going from sealed to horned, and 6db above 30hz.
I did lose some SPL below 12hz because of that however... which is fixable by re-adding more sealed subs. (There is no free lunch.)

Ported would have only gained me 12db and 0db respectively. So keep that in mind.
I agree, if 10 21's is not doing it for him, then he might be chasing the wrong rabbit. My LCR's have TD18H's in them and I run them down to 40hz. That and nearfield subs has given me a system, that does not have me looking for more.

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Old 03-24-2017, 06:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Archaea View Post
My personal experiences and preferences are that if you are on a basement slab the general cutoff to where I stop caring about subsonic content is about 14 or 15hz.

I have eight sealed UM18-22s and have played with test tones and the lowest content, favored demo clips, a lot. My subs provide pretty decent response down below 10hz. I just don't think it matters much below about 14hz on a slab of concrete. I also have participated in several tests where people can't even tell if that content is there or absent (using steep HPF filters) on a slab.

If you are on a suspended wooden floor - all bets change. It's also fun to have nearfield sealed subs firing directly into your back on a concrete slab to appreciate some of the tactile energy of the cone, that you otherwise can't really pick up, or is masked by higher frequency content.

FWIW, I don't really get a sense of dread from the lowest stuff, that I've heard people talk about before. It's fun, but not scary, or eerie, or upsetting to me. This is probably unique to each person.

I'd have no problem trading out my sealed subs for equivalent ported subs tuned to 14 or 15hz, but I'd keep my sealed subs behind my listening position. @notnyt migrated his eight sealed to ported and didn't feel like he gave anything up with his eight LMS5400 Ultras.
It is even more fun to have nearfield subs on a suspended floor. I get the impact like you get, but then I also get the floor movement. I like what you did in your room, especially since your room is concrete floor. Made for a good enjoyable HT.

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Old 03-24-2017, 11:34 AM
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I just upgrade from Dual SVS PB-13 Ultras to Dual JTR Captivator 2400 ULFs. Night and Day difference. I can not imagine, in my wildest dreams, ever wanting or needing MOAR Bass than what these Babies deliver. I have a rather large space (>6200 Cu. Ft.) Gain on the Subs is 30% post calibration and boosted 6-8 dbs.

These things are Scary powerful. I guess you could say I am eyebrow deep down the Rabbit Hole.

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Old 03-24-2017, 11:36 AM
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I can not imagine, in my wildest dreams, ever wanting or needing MOAR Bass than what these Babies deliver.

Heh.

Adorable.
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Old 03-24-2017, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Adamg (Ret-Navy) View Post
I can not imagine, in my wildest dreams, ever wanting or needing MOAR Bass than what these Babies deliver.

HAHA.....famous last words around here! I just finished buying up 12-18"s for the house we're moving into in a month. 4 years ago, I had a single Polk PSW505. LOL
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Old 04-10-2017, 12:53 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Garrett View Post
It is even more fun to have nearfield subs on a suspended floor. I get the impact like you get, but then I also get the floor movement. I like what you did in your room, especially since your room is concrete floor. Made for a good enjoyable HT.
Really enjoying the discussion, and learning a lot in the process!

I do have one big question to ask you gurus... I've heard Near Field subs mentioned quite a bit. Tell me, what do Near Field subs do for you? And why doesn't everybody employ them?

Many thanks!
J&H
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Old 04-10-2017, 04:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Jekyll & Hyde View Post
Really enjoying the discussion, and learning a lot in the process!

I do have one big question to ask you gurus... I've heard Near Field subs mentioned quite a bit. Tell me, what do Near Field subs do for you? And why doesn't everybody employ them?

Many thanks!
J&H
Not a guru by any stretch, but the said placement gives you tactile feeling (floating in the water) very cost effectively. You may also be rewarded with flatter response depending on your room acoustics.

For the second part, most people are space challenged or WAF limited.

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Old 04-14-2017, 10:45 AM
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My opinions mostly mirror those of Archaea. I have been present for many of the same tests. Very capable systems and when played back with and without the sub 15 Hz content I was not blown away by the difference. I still say if you can do sub 15 Hz then by all means go for it. I'm only saying that it was not a night and day difference for me during the listening tests. Most people don't have the budget to do it all so IF there must be a choice then I would choose to have more headroom above 15.

I would say near field is the budget and space friendly way to feel more of the ULF content.

My own preference for horn based subwoofers led me to sort of give up on authoritative sub 15 Hz content. I do still get some output down there with dual Orbit Shifters but it's not enough to call it meaningful at a certain point.

Edit: Hmm, but to the OP's question. Yes. I do crave really low bass. Below 15 Hz is really ULF territory. So in my opinion that makes say 15-30 Hz in the really low bass territory. That is where a lot of the really low movie stuff is located. And keep in mind you need lots of SPL down there to do it right. I bet there are lots of folks who think they can do 20 Hz well but fall well short.
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:04 AM
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You don't have to apologize for not caring about <15hz content.


Honestly, I can produce it and have been to several systems that can or can not reproduce this content.


Guess what? Even when you can, it adds very little to the experience. Is it more realistic? Umm, sure. Maybe. Can't say I've ever had my torso crushed in by an Incredible Hulk or anything but I do often have Blackhawks and Chinooks flying over my home (military base nearby) and I can tell you that having ULF capability can indeed be very realistic.

But does it improve a movie? No. Well... not really. It's neat but I didn't come out asking myself new questions about life after experiencing a couple seconds of my butt bouncing up and down to some machinegun fire. It just doesn't work like that. Often these effects are at best net only "parlor tricks" to enthusiasts like us. "Oh woah bro, like my drywall is coming apart cuz I've got such powerful subs." It's fun to brag and what better way to brag than to tell people how much their subs go lower or louder than yours.

Amiright?
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Old 04-14-2017, 11:34 AM
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Scott, what's your cut off hz where if you couldn't go that low with authority it wouldn't bother you? Is it 15hz also? 20hz? Inquiring minds want to know. 😎

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Old 04-14-2017, 01:38 PM
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25hz is the -3db point on my system.........it is really hard to hear below 25hz when a movie is going,unless that is the only sound at the time. Below 25hz is mostly feel.


Just because my system is down 10-15 db at 20 hz, it is still well over a 100db and you can still feel 100db of 20hz when the sub is inches from you.


I still get the floating on water sensation and certainly lots of tactile output.


It also allows me to run a lot less volume on the subs since it is so close, which translates in to less distance the bass carries out of the room and less strain on my system.

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Old 04-14-2017, 04:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
You don't have to apologize for not caring about <15hz content.


Honestly, I can produce it and have been to several systems that can or can not reproduce this content.


Guess what? Even when you can, it adds very little to the experience. Is it more realistic? Umm, sure. Maybe. Can't say I've ever had my torso crushed in by an Incredible Hulk or anything but I do often have Blackhawks and Chinooks flying over my home (military base nearby) and I can tell you that having ULF capability can indeed be very realistic.

But does it improve a movie? No. Well... not really. It's neat but I didn't come out asking myself new questions about life after experiencing a couple seconds of my butt bouncing up and down to some machinegun fire. It just doesn't work like that. Often these effects are at best net only "parlor tricks" to enthusiasts like us. "Oh woah bro, like my drywall is coming apart cuz I've got such powerful subs." It's fun to brag and what better way to brag than to tell people how much their subs go lower or louder than yours.

Amiright?
Hehe. Yeah, I think your right. The ULF score has turned into the ultimate bragging rights. But, don't get me wrong I am glad it is out there and I totally appreciate all the work Paolo has done to bring us the measurements. Something was wrong with my test tones when he was at my place. Maybe I will do it with the app he suggested.

I also have a Chinook that flies directly over my house once every week. It is exactly when my kids go to bed and thrills them to no end. It is incredulous how much the bass waves shake the house and he isn't even flying super low or anything (not high either). I actually got to meet the pilot so that was pretty cool.

But, yeah if I could have it all I would choose to reproduce the content. I am a bit jealous of those who can even though I have proven time and time again that it is not a night and day difference for me. Kind of weird. But, there is this feeling that you are missing something right? And then you start to wonder and doubt and all that.

Since I am on a concrete floor and I can't part with my precious Orbit Shifters I think I will use near field and or tactile transducers to "get me there". All in good time.
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Old 04-15-2017, 07:49 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by braveheart123 View Post
Not a guru by any stretch, but the said placement gives you tactile feeling (floating in the water) very cost effectively. You may also be rewarded with flatter response depending on your room acoustics.
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to start with a (fairly) large LLT nearfield, and add/adjust from there.

Quote:
For the second part, most people are space challenged or WAF limited.
Fortunately neither of those is an issue in this room. The bsmt is mine mine mine all mine
The living room OTOH...
...Lost that battle a looong time ago.
Had to downsize the sub and hide it behind the TV stand! And drastically downsize the speaks (can't even see them any more amongst the nicknacks). Alas.


Thanks again!
J&H
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