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Do you eventually crave REALLY LOW BASS?

7K views 122 replies 41 participants last post by  johnplayerson 
#1 ·
Hi all,
Been studying up on as many builds as possible (still can't quite decide on a first one yet tho! :eek: ). Seems I'd like to build them all!!!

One thing I've gotta ask the community before I fall too far down the rabbit hole though is do you eventually crave the really LOW bass? Like well below 20 hz. And how do you plan to get there? I've just noticed so many movies nowadays really push the super low stuff ("Arrival" and "Hacksaw" about tore my poor little PSW-505's apart :eek: ).

Do you think it's important to add that extra shake? How best to reproduce it? Is it an eventuality that I should plan for?

Many thanks for your thoughts! From a future Bass-aholic!
J&H
 
#49 ·
Some of our systems can dish out a fair amount of ULF.

The HzHorn does 134db@1m corner-loaded @ just 10% power.
It's basically a Ghorn tuned 5hz lower. Instead of 19-20hz it's 14-15hz.


Not a hint of distortion either...
That said, my camera's mic is clipping like crazy here! Unavoidable.

I actually felt ill from making that vid. I actually vomited the very next day.
But... that was because I had the flu and didn't know it at the time. (excuses excuses... I know! hehe :p)

and that's just one 18...
Now imagine 8 32inchers turned into horns, that would be a truly nutty amount of ULF.
This is AVS DIY, it's not a matter of if; just a matter of when... :D :D :D
 

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#52 ·
Low frequencies are abundant in real life, I experience some awesome effects all the time and I wanted that in my theater, mixers should stop filtering them out as they are there naturally. Of course not at 180 dB like a bomb but enough to enjoy. I built my room to get and feel it. I hear the 10hz tone on EoT just as loud as the rest, it is a little slower but it is supposed to be.
 
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#53 ·
This is a hobby of mine. My resources are time based. Based on how much of my "allowance / fun money" I can save over time.

LTD has said and designed about the best money per DIY sub 30hz system available. 1 (or better 2) Marty-whatevers with $200 to 250 drivers in ported cabs with likely a inuke3000dsp (ish) amp.

A fairly large and cheap 18" in the same cab with 600 or so watts with dsp is most need in a 1000 sq.ft. room (scale as necessary). 2 of the same gets you from about 85% to 92.25% :)

Most should be plenty happy with this if appropriately placed in a room and call it a day. I am finishing builds for my father and get away home as we speak....

Most that experience sub 15 hz with noticable authority and if they have the space / time / funds over time may decide to pursure that if it's their hobby.

For my home theater I have decided to continue to head down the sub 15hz zone. If that requires more amps, subs, seat riser, gelatan, near-field, better arse shakers (i have fun auro-pros per seat now - only good to 20hz ish - not good enough?).

I play a low "b" bass guitar in front of a 2 12" ported 300 watt cab for 30 years now. Low b is about 20 hz... For music 20 hz is plenty. For "Fing" Irene... not so much. Go for 7 hz?

For me it comes down to my theater room ( can't destroy living space above - serious issue) / budget over time (no real limit with realistic amps and drivers?) / space (largest constraint for me) / and desire to continue to explore the rabbit hole :)

I'm likely done with my next round of upgrades. Give me 4 years.
 
#54 ·
Wow, lots to ponder.

Thanks for the great discussion everyone.

I sure wasn't aware of some of the finer technical details regarding reproducing those lowest frequencies. For instance a concrete slab vs wood floor (yup I'm on a basement slab alright, with concrete block walls). My HT is in one 13x13' corner of a totally open bsmt, about 10,000 ft3. LOL can I have any more strikes against me?



It's my space, so there aren't any major WAF issues (lucky me!), but there are budget constraints, time constraints, and woodworking skill issues (unlucky me). I do have a friend who might be able to help me with the latter tho.

My weakest link right now is in the subwoofer department. I have a pair of PSW-505's that are pretty good for music, but just flop around when asked to reproduce anything very loud or very low in a movie soundtrack.

With a (paltry) initial budget of $1200 and realizing that
 
#58 ·
Thanks for the great discussion everyone.

I sure wasn't aware of some of the finer technical details regarding reproducing those lowest frequencies. For instance a concrete slab vs wood floor (yup I'm on a basement slab alright, with concrete block walls). My HT is in one 13x13' corner of a totally open bsmt, about 10,000 ft3. LOL can I have any more strikes against me?



It's my space, so there aren't any major WAF issues (lucky me!), but there are budget constraints, time constraints, and woodworking skill issues (unlucky me). I do have a friend who might be able to help me with the latter tho.

My weakest link right now is in the subwoofer department. I have a pair of PSW-505's that are pretty good for music, but just flop around when asked to reproduce anything very loud or very low in a movie soundtrack.

With a (paltry) initial budget of $1200 and realizing that
 
#62 ·
Subs 3 feet over your head? :eek:

I think you'll fit in here quite well, the rabbit hole is to your left!

You can do it disco style and weave ropes to make a sub basket--can you dig it?

It always made me nervous to mount something heavy and vibrates over my cranium--just kinda freaks me out.

You could build a raised floor to put your exercise equipment on and mount subs that way. Going to have to build some stout construction but would probably be easier and safer than flown subs. All depends on your roof, beams and if the sub will blow shingles off the roof.

Good luck!
 
#70 ·
You could build a raised floor to put your exercise equipment on and mount subs that way. Going to have to build some stout construction but would probably be easier and safer than flown subs.
Hmmm. I hadn't considered a SUB Floor subfloor. :)
Lots of benefits including more tactile feel. I'll have to figure out a design. Let's see, six inches high by...

Thanks for the suggestions,
J&H
 
#64 ·
Can go 20s, and I don't really appreciate it. I love the impact of higher frequencies with greater SPL, especially in shorter bursts. 30Hz for some chill stuff (music), 45 for disco and DNB, 65 Hz for chest pounding back hitting psy, and 100+Hz for some live music blink-forcing bass. There is no love under 30Hz for me. And it is cracking my ceiling too...
 
#66 ·
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#67 · (Edited)
Different people have different goals--or, more importantly, different rooms.

Doesn't matter what your end goal is, your room is what dictates what is feasible for you in terms of frequency response. If you're in a 30ft by 30ft room with a concrete floor, you're going to need a literal TON of subwoofers to get 10hz with enough authority to make it worth while, and as such you're better off chasing 16-17hz with serious authority via large ported boxes. Meanwhile, if your room is 15x18 on a suspended wooden floor, a few um18s will get the job done for under $1500.

It's all about picking the right tool for the job.

This path can be expensive if you go about it incrementally. Better and cheaper in the long run to go big first.
There is much truth to this statement. You will blow through a few grand QUICKLY if you buy what you can afford now and upgrade it later. Buy what you WANT from the jump off. If you go DIY and use an iNuke, buy the 6kdsp rather than the 3k to give yourself room for another sub that you WILL eventually add (even if you swear it will never happen...it will...trust me.)

Best way to not end up broke with this hobby is to not just plan out your theater for now, but plan it out for the future. :D
 
#69 ·
For those that want HP filters below 20Hz, has anyone here made up a Filter inserted on the input of the amp ? If the amp has input impedance of 20kOhms, then that would be applied for the formula instead of VC resistance.


http://www.facstaff.bucknell.edu/esantane/movies/ibsub.html


So, now you have determined the high pass crossover frequency that should keep the driver safely within its design limits for the number of drivers and output power of the amp you are using. Since the point is to preserve headroom in your system, you want to filter the subwoofer output signal before it gets to your amp. If you are using parametric equalization (such as the BFD), you'll want to place the filter before your EQ to help keep it from clipping the signal that it passes to your amp. Creating the actual high pass filter is a very simple exercise - you just need to insert a capacitor and a resistor into the signal cable. The good news is that the resistor is already there for you - it is the imput impedance of your equalizer or amplifier (whichever is first in your signal path for your sub) and it is indicated by the input impedance (check the spec sheet) of your equalizer or amp. The input impedance of my Behringer DPS1124P is given as 30kohm for an unbalanced (RCA) cable. Then use the first order crossover calculator on the ApICS web page to enter the input impedance of your EQ as the High Pass Impedance (30,000 ohms), plug some bogus number into the Low Pass Impedance field (since we have no interest in a low pass filter), type in your desired high pass frequency as determined with your WinISD model (11 Hertz), and click the Calculate button. The C1 value will provide the proper sized capacitor to achieve your desired high pass crossover point. For me, this works out to about 0.48uF. If you are using an unbalanced signal cable (standard RCA plug), place this cap in series with the hot lead of your signal cable as shown in the schematic for the first order high pass filter and you're all set! If you are using a balanced signal cable (standard XLR plug), place this value of capacitance in series with BOTH the positive lead AND the negative leads. It's really just that simple and now you are ready to move on to using REW to set your equalizer.
 
#73 ·
What a wonderful thread !!!!!!!


I am on a concrete floor.......subs a couple inches from the back of the seating cured most of that....the floor might not vibrate, but the seating does as well as my body.


I also see a mention of recreating true life or as the director intended statements.......while in music this might be true, but with movies I do not agree.


When I see a chopper on screen do a flyby, I would guess I have far exceeded what it would be if the chopper was actually in my room.......:eek: Thats not realistic or what the director intended, but everyone sure likes it....:D


Chest slams.........air seperation and that on the sea ripple effect adds a lot to experiance, intended or not.

I forget the last movie that had the pulsating wave on the ocean feel that made everyone feel a little sea sickish.........but it was great feeling/watching people and the looks they had, even made me a litte dizzy, whitewashed sicky feeling.........OUTSTANDING!
 
#76 ·
^
google "limp riser"
 
#78 ·
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#80 ·
Dang it Dang it

I got home from work and had a listen to The Glitch Mob's "Bad Wings" off their "Drink the Sea" album (techno-electronica), and you know what? I JUST GOTTA HAVE LOW BASS! No ifs, ands, or buts. It may not happen right away, but I had better plan on it.


I know my current Polks don't get down too far, but there was just enough that I could tell there was more down there!!! A lot more. And I want it. :D


So after that I just had to play Track 1 (Jim Keltner's drum improv) off of Sheffield Lab's "Drum and Track Disc." If you ever want to feel good about your system just play anything off of this remarkable disc (at reference levels preferably!).


Well, gotta go search my soul some more.
J&H
 
#83 ·
It started with the tapped horns and that lasted about a year. FR on those was ragged. It was prior to that time frame when multi sealed or low tuned ported were what everyone was doing for extension.


The Marty seems to have become very popular, and it looks like some folks who did build multi sealed subs seem to be changing them over to ported. I'm just not seeing the low tuning.


What FR are you achieving with 14 sealed 18" subs? If you have the extension but not the output, your amps probably can't handle the EQ. If you have more output than you will ever use above 30hz, and not enough below 30hz, and are using 14 sealed 18" subs, sell them as is and make a bunch of money. Then build 6-8 large ported subs tuned to 12hz. You'll still have more output than you can use above 30hz, more than you can use below 30hz, and you'll have extra money in your pocket.


Not to start crap again on here lol, but sealed is really only for those tight on space. If you are doing 14 18s, you aren't tight on space.
 
#84 ·
#88 ·
I am changing as I realized during heavy bass movies my Inuke was barely lighting up the LEDS and I was amp limited! I was not even using half of the inuke and I could use 12000 watts! So I am putting 2-4 XXX 18s and porting it to 10hz. My room is 1400 plus cubes. Start from there. I want to try the ported XXX as it measured very well in that large enclosure. Mine is even bigger hence the lower tune. I am starting my line array build too. I know the dual DTS-10s were plenty in my room up to 12 dB hot and dual XXX ported is even stronger(not midbass).
 
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#91 ·
If I was smart and not amp/voltage limited I would do the same as long as Walter OK'd it since my room is over 6,300 cubes! But being that I have as much power available as I do, buying more amps and sealed Seaton stacks will get me where I'm wanting to go, why not lol. But it will cost a lot more for the sub 10hz range I love so much. I still haven't chosen which amps to use for all the subs since I'm in search of the lowest roll off possible in a 220v 10,000 watt+ housing.

Since I have two rows on the resonator platforms it's even more golden and can easily add a very short platform for the front row that's on slab if really want but even sitting there now provides great tactile feedback directly on the carpet. I only watch 3D movies in the front row too so not overly concerned about that anyway.

In my smaller room (yet to be designed or constructed) that will be dedicated for 1-3 people gaming/movies the walls will be constructed so that the openings for horn loaded or vented cabs will be flush with the rest of the side walls for a DBA from side wall to side wall. They will be stacked and flown overhead as well for XXX near field fill in "if" OK'd by designer since have access above for such an arrangement. I don't know if I can increase the ceiling height from 10' in the entire room yet as there are stringers tied into LVLs as ceiling/attic joists. BUT I will tie in either an IB SBA/DBA or Rotary sub to keep the ULF alive like I originally wanted to do in the 6,300cuft theater room. This will just be much easier and will pay off since I watch a lot of movies by myself (wife can't stand scary movies) so can design around the largest OLED or LED set affordable since the space will be so small. Acoustic plan is DIY deep skylines for 100% coverage of useable wall space. Right now I have aproximately 22'x16'x10' of space to totally do room within a room construction but could gain more when add the new garages so way more than enough room to even use 2x12 lumber all around if needed. Hell I guess I could technically use total LVL construction or steel even though I don't have much experience with steel. But there will need to be some super strong walls to house a DBA of horn loaded cabs(thinking Orbit Shifter or similar) or vented cabs. I've seen a vented DBA but not a horn loaded one so it has me intrigued to say the least. I just don't see any way around using a DBA in such a small space and the need for extreme mid bass makes the idea that much greater, to me anyway lol. Something I've also thought about for the ULF is a SBA or DBA using the ceiling and floor but have no idea how that would integrate with the side wall DBA. I doubt I could do a SBA or DBA using the front/rear wall because of the flat panel being in the way. It's all way over my head how to integrate two similar systems and a rotary sub could be the easiest way to go so will just leave that part up to the experts for sure.

But that goes to show I still keep wanting MOAR extreme bass even after having ten 21" subs that make most tap out before reaching their maximum output. So, just depends on if you are a true basshead or not I guess. I've ruined my hearing with bass and yesterday was a perfect example of it. I asked my doctor to look into my right ear while I was there for a routine checkup because I thought I might have been getting an infection. It must have been the first time he had actually looked closely at my eardrum because it freaked him out when he saw all the little bubbles oozing off of it. He said, are these bubbles normal for you or do we need to see what's going on here. They are quite normal "now" for my right eardrum and my wife (a physician) freaked out when she saw them the first time. It's all fun and games but is also dangerous when exposed for too long of periods like I did when cruising country roads as a teen with 155+dbs for hours at a time each and every day while numbing brain cells too lol. So which is actually worse for our health numbing brain cells for a few hours or putting high SPL systems in our vehicles and homes? That's not for anyone but ourselves to answer unless one is under age of course. ;-)

There are limits I personally wouldn't want to expose myself to anymore now that I'm older that's for sure. I sat in a guys truck while the shop was working on my car not too long ago and his system(strictly spl) was tuned to 60hz @165db with 6 12s. That hurt and wouldn't do it again. I can take anything in the 150-160db range; although, the last few dbs-158,159,160 start to hurt in the upper frequency range 60-80hz, I wouldn't ride around and listen to it like I did as a teen. Or now that my ears are bad it could just "seem" louder and hurt a lot worse than it did back 15 years ago. For me, a nice 145-155db range is still fun for a few songs here and there and 155-160db just for demos only.
 
#90 ·
I have now, 4-12`s at 700 watts rms combined on the plate amps, supposedly 2500 dynamic whatever that means.


It produces crazy bass in a 12x12 sealed room.......I can not imagine a bunch A 18`s....:D



1,10 gave way to a 12, which gave way to 4, 12`s, which made me want a huge low tuned 18, which gave me the idea of 2 ,15`s directly behind the seats, which leads to buying amps, building boxes.........which birthed the discovery of tactile transducers, which in turn gives way to building a platform..........


I am not sure there is ever a end........but it sure is FUN!
 
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