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post #1 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 04:27 PM - Thread Starter
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First time DIY'er

Whats Up folks?!
Possibly looking to start my first DIY project and just trying to get some leads on some ideas and places that you guys like to use for plans and parts. My plan is to just build a basic 3 way rectangle cabinet with a maybe 2 10" woofers, 2 6" mid bass, and a tweeter per cabinet. Or maybe a full range line array. End result is to have a good stand alone full range speaker with no need for a sub. I'm not real worried about building the cabinet. The only part of it that gives me pause is the crossover. I know I can buy them pre-built, but I also wonder about the capacitors and clarity caps that I see as upgrades for some manufacturers. Any help is always appreciated!
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post #2 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 04:43 PM
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It depends . . .

got a budget range?

google up the DIY Sound Group and check out the "Elusive 1099".
sounds like your description . . .

What is your compromise low end for : no sub need apply?

Budget no issue?

get the 1899's.

That wasn't too hard, now, was it . . .

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post #3 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 05:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
Whats Up folks?!
Possibly looking to start my first DIY project and just trying to get some leads on some ideas and places that you guys like to use for plans and parts. My plan is to just build a basic 3 way rectangle cabinet with a maybe 2 10" woofers, 2 6" mid bass, and a tweeter per cabinet. Or maybe a full range line array. End result is to have a good stand alone full range speaker with no need for a sub. I'm not real worried about building the cabinet. The only part of it that gives me pause is the crossover. I know I can buy them pre-built, but I also wonder about the capacitors and clarity caps that I see as upgrades for some manufacturers. Any help is always appreciated!
Sounds like you want something for mostly 2 channel music listening. In the DIY Sound Group offerings, I'd suggest the Maximus 12.

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post #4 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
Whats Up folks?!
Possibly looking to start my first DIY project and just trying to get some leads on some ideas and places that you guys like to use for plans and parts. My plan is to just build a basic 3 way rectangle cabinet with a maybe 2 10" woofers, 2 6" mid bass, and a tweeter per cabinet. Or maybe a full range line array. End result is to have a good stand alone full range speaker with no need for a sub. I'm not real worried about building the cabinet. The only part of it that gives me pause is the crossover. I know I can buy them pre-built, but I also wonder about the capacitors and clarity caps that I see as upgrades for some manufacturers. Any help is always appreciated!
If your reasonably electrically handy you could get by with one of the DIYSG kits and work up a custom crossover to make it full range but in that case you would want to go with one of the larger kits as you would want a decent sized driver for your midrange. Most of the DIYSG kits rely on you wiring the drivers together to drop them from 16ohm to 8ohm. I would bet money there is someone on the DIY threads that could wire up a custom crossover. the 1299 kits run a 6.5" midrange which could work. Or you could do a 2 layer build. Have the bottom as a dedicated sub box something in say an 18" ported or sealed your choice, and then build a standard 2 or 3 way up top. Like say a Dayton Ultimax 18" sub box and then stack a DIYSG 1099 or 1299 on top. You could run a dedicated amp for the sub portion that has a built in LPF and then run the top portion directly from an AVR
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post #5 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 05:07 PM - Thread Starter
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I'll be using a sub, just don't want something that's dependent on one. Yes, budget matters, but not sure how far it goes in diy.
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post #6 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 05:11 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
If your reasonably electrically handy you could get by with one of the DIYSG kits and work up a custom crossover to make it full range but in that case you would want to go with one of the larger kits as you would want a decent sized driver for your midrange. Most of the DIYSG kits rely on you wiring the drivers together to drop them from 16ohm to 8ohm. I would bet money there is someone on the DIY threads that could wire up a custom crossover. the 1299 kits run a 6.5" midrange which could work. Or you could do a 2 layer build. Have the bottom as a dedicated sub box something in say an 18" ported or sealed your choice, and then build a standard 2 or 3 way up top. Like say a Dayton Ultimax 18" sub box and then stack a DIYSG 1099 or 1299 on top. You could run a dedicated amp for the sub portion that has a built in LPF and then run the top portion directly from an AVR
This is an idea I've been thinking about. If I keep them separate I can I can still move the sub if needed.
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post #7 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 06:20 PM
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Hey, Frank. I've seen some of your other threads and I think you're following a similar journey to try of many of us on here. I just wish I found the DIY community earlier.

I started the audition process with brick and mortar speakers. Compared in home for extended periods PSB, Focal, B&W, Kef and Tannoy. After settling on a set, I still wasn't convinced, so I looked to go ID brands. I compared SVS, Anthony Gallo, Philharmonic and Ascend. I ended up with Philharmonic. Really liked the Phils, but then I heard some JTRs and wanted some high efficiency speakers that were great for movies.

Bought some Tektons for a GTG along with some other HE speakers. Fast forward, pulled the trigger on some Reaction Audio speakers, then backed out before they collapsed. Heard the JBL 4722. Ordered some DIYSG 1099s. Liked them a lot, but decided to swap them for DIYSG Titan 615 LX.

Long story short, you can skip all the middle steps and go with a diy offering right off the bat. Like @wasser suggested, the DIYSG Maximus 12LX would be a really nice three-way with quality parts that doesn't need a sub for two channel music. That's the route I'd go if I were in your position.

Last edited by VicTorious1; 03-20-2017 at 06:24 PM.
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post #8 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 06:37 PM
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http://www.diysoundgroup.com/ is a good place to start, if you are not already familiar with them. Even if you don't want to purchase one of their kits, there is a lot of interesting info you can glean from them, they are relatively active on this forum, and have a loyal following of customers satisfied with their products - so they seem to know what they are doing.

Food for thought.

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post #9 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 06:52 PM
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It's a cult, I swear..

Welcome to DIY, where the only limit is the limit of technology, and what type that may entail.
(some are better than others)

Saw your comment about caps, thought of this:

Quote:
Technology before brand.

There are two main types of quality caps: metallized, and film-and-foil. The former are cheaper, the latter better: by better, I mean smoother, more refined, more detailed.

Dielectric thickness doesn't matter very much, but metal thickness does. Just about anything thick enough to be wound up on a spool is thick enough for sonics, but a deposited conductor is a different matter.

Construction is also important. The larger the capacitance, the more the cap can suffer from inductance. MIT Multicap have a connection scheme that minimizes this. Duelund has a flat pack topology which is just about optimal.

Polypropylene tends to sound pretty good, but compared to styrene, is dull. PTFE (teflon) sounds a little bright compared to styrene. Styrene is, to my mind, the most neutral of the conventional dielectrics. These are the films.

For metal, the best is one which connects easily (usually solders easily). Those are silver, copper, and tin. These are the foils.
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post #10 of 25 Old 03-20-2017, 07:55 PM
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Or don't worry about caps because even if there were an identifiable sonic difference, that difference would be orders of magnitude lower than about a dozen other factors more deserving of time and money.
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post #11 of 25 Old Yesterday, 06:15 AM - Thread Starter
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Or don't worry about caps because even if there were an identifiable sonic difference, that difference would be orders of magnitude lower than about a dozen other factors more deserving of time and money.
What's your priority list?
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post #12 of 25 Old Yesterday, 06:32 AM
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Choice of drivers, baffle design, crossover topology, room setup, room acoustic treatments, signal processing.

I guess that's half a dozen major off the top of my head. More detailed or specific factors that are related just to speaker design that I would place ahead of capacitor material type are time alignment, driver spacing, baffle diffraction mitigation, polar response (largely driven by driver choice and baffle design as well as crossover points), cone resonances and breakup, etc.

Those aren't in order and it isn't an exhaustive list. Point being there are lots of things I'd worry about before putting one second of thought into what the capacitor is made of. Near the last step, I'd think about longevity and stability over time of the crossover and ask myself if it mattered for this particular project.

Or follow the rule of thumb that if something only costs a few bucks more to nnot have to think about it, that alone is worth the extra cost. Some caps fall into that category.
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Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
This is an idea I've been thinking about. If I keep them separate I can I can still move the sub if needed.
Well the good thing is with the DIYSG speakers in this case the 1099, which is their most popular I believe, has a frequency response from 45hz - 20khz so you can still get some decent bass, nothing like a dedicated sub of course, out of it. So long as you run it full range from the AVR, or manually adjust the AVR crossover for the speaker down further as most are set at around 80hz. And the best part about about many of the larger kits from this is they all, or most do, have sensitivity in the very high 90's many hovering around 99dB 2.83v/1m so you can power them with almost ANY receiver and get more volume from them than you would probably ever need without a dedicated separate amp. I am not presently the owner of any of their kits but I plan on replacing most of my 5.2 surround setup with their speakers. Speficially the Fusion-8 Alchemy Tower for my left and right channels, the cinema 8 for my center channel if it will fit standing on the floor in front of my tv and the Fusion 8 standard possibly for my surrounds. I want the 1099's but I don't have the room beside my tv for them. I have a buddy who can build the crossovers, they all come with precut flat packs, then i can put a nice veneer on them to make them look good.
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post #14 of 25 Old Yesterday, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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So just looking at some of the kits at DIYSG, they all use horns, I assume to gain sensitivity. Most obvious comparison are the speakers JTR and PSA. Anyone have any opinions on how they compare?
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post #15 of 25 Old Yesterday, 12:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
So just looking at some of the kits at DIYSG, they all use horns, I assume to gain sensitivity. Most obvious comparison are the speakers JTR and PSA. Anyone have any opinions on how they compare?
I dont know how it compares to those particular brands but one member here preferred his 1099's over is Klipsch RF-7II's which retail for $1500 each.
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post #16 of 25 Old Yesterday, 02:19 PM
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So just looking at some of the kits at DIYSG, they all use horns, I assume to gain sensitivity. Most obvious comparison are the speakers JTR and PSA. Anyone have any opinions on how they compare?
They compare favorably. Here is a JTR vs PSA vs DIYSG GTG thread comparing some different HE speakers. Depending on which JTR you're looking at, DIYSG has some similar performing speakers. PSA are good also, but it seems in that thread the JTR and 1099 were preferred. I've heard JTR's speakers and they sound great. I also have heard many DIYSG offerings and they are really good speakers (and not just for the price). PSA doesn't make true full range speakers. DIYSG has some nice full range options: Maximus 12 LXE or Titan 615 LX, the latter which is a great HT speaker that's also good with music. Keep in mind that DIYSG also offers speakers that don't use horns. Checkout their more traditional speakers here: Traditional Speaker Kits.
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Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
So just looking at some of the kits at DIYSG, they all use horns, I assume to gain sensitivity..
Exactly.
I had a whole two page post readied, but refraining because I respect all fellow DIYers, all of them..

Anyway, I like your idea of a line source.

Bigus is right about caps, the small differences had, are easily overwhelmed by other factors if working with 'traditional' transducers.

I wish you the best of luck DIYing..

Cheers
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post #18 of 25 Old Yesterday, 06:36 PM
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Exactly.
I had a whole two page post readied, but refraining because I respect all fellow DIYers, all of them..

Anyway, I like your idea of a line source.

Bigus is right about caps, the small differences had, are easily overwhelmed by other factors if working with 'traditional' transducers.

I wish you the best of luck DIYing..

Cheers
-Steve
Just curious what do you mean by "line source" future DIYer here, can't beat the bang for the buck. Certainly no audiophile as I really like the Dayton Audio 5.1 set I bought but looking for much more sensitive speakers and you can't beat diy for the price.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by liffie420 View Post
Just curious what do you mean by "line source" future DIYer here, can't beat the bang for the buck. Certainly no audiophile as I really like the Dayton Audio 5.1 set I bought but looking for much more sensitive speakers and you can't beat diy for the price.
He means line array speakers. BFM sells some line array plans that seem intriguing. If I'm not mistaken, I believe @MKtheater is in the process of building some to replace his all Berry 215 setup. I've heard the Wisdom LA speakers and I also heard some LA speakers that used an array of ribbon tweeters. Unfortunately, unlike some inexpensive done tweeters, it's hard to find inexpensive ribbons to use in multiples for a LA speaker.
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post #20 of 25 Old Today, 07:24 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by wreckingball View Post
Exactly.
I had a whole two page post readied, but refraining because I respect all fellow DIYers, all of them..

Anyway, I like your idea of a line source.

Bigus is right about caps, the small differences had, are easily overwhelmed by other factors if working with 'traditional' transducers.

I wish you the best of luck DIYing..

Cheers
-Steve

Hey Steve,

I'm guessing you may not be a fan of horns. Horns seem to be popular in HT, but not so much for music. Of course I would like some speakers that do both pretty well. I don't know if a horn tweeter is going to be what I'm looking for, but it seems to be the only option with high sensitivity speakers. Some of the Tekton Design speakers seem to handle this problem by adding more dome tweeters in a mini line array. I've never built a crossover so not going to attempt something complex like that.

The Line Array's I was looking at are the plans from Bill Fitzmaurice, but he recommends his "David" design for music. The smaller Line Arrays don't go very deep, so they pretty much require a sub. Not a huge problem as I'll be getting a sub anyway, but kind of makes them worthless by themselves if I wanted to use them somewhere else one day.
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post #21 of 25 Old Today, 07:24 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by VicTorious1 View Post
He means line array speakers. BFM sells some line array plans that seem intriguing. If I'm not mistaken, I believe @MKtheater is in the process of building some to replace his all Berry 215 setup. I've heard the Wisdom LA speakers and I also heard some LA speakers that used an array of ribbon tweeters. Unfortunately, unlike some inexpensive done tweeters, it's hard to find inexpensive ribbons to use in multiples for a LA speaker.
Ahh ok, I think they posted up a diy kit on parts express, but its all in one package drivers and "frame" for like $1500.
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post #22 of 25 Old Today, 07:55 AM - Thread Starter
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Ahh ok, I think they posted up a diy kit on parts express, but its all in one package drivers and "frame" for like $1500.
I saw that, looks pretty cool. It's a little pricey for DIY. If I don't think it's that great, I won't get much money back out of a speaker I made myself though.
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Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
I saw that, looks pretty cool. It's a little pricey for DIY. If I don't think it's that great, I won't get much money back out of a speaker I made myself though.
VERY true it would be nice if you could just get the box and use your own drivers.
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The array on Parts express is the CBT array designed by Don Keele. I am building the HT TLAH from BFM as we type. I am testing them to see if I like them better than the Berries I have. Cheap drivers do not scare me as the design makes the difference. The BFM DR-200 and DR-250s I had were some of the best speakers I owned but they required DSP that I can't use with my current Atmos system. I also prefer an all matching system so I can no longer have huge speakers for the front stage and they always sound bigger and fuller than their smaller surrounds. I have owned many different speakers and it will be interesting to hear what these can do since they are more suited for my room than the DR-250s were.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Frankhenrylee View Post
Hey Steve,

I'm guessing you may not be a fan of horns. Horns seem to be popular in HT, but not so much for music. Of course I would like some speakers that do both pretty well. I don't know if a horn tweeter is going to be what I'm looking for, but it seems to be the only option with high sensitivity speakers. Some of the Tekton Design speakers seem to handle this problem by adding more dome tweeters in a mini line array. I've never built a crossover so not going to attempt something complex like that.

The Line Array's I was looking at are the plans from Bill Fitzmaurice, but he recommends his "David" design for music. The smaller Line Arrays don't go very deep, so they pretty much require a sub. Not a huge problem as I'll be getting a sub anyway, but kind of makes them worthless by themselves if I wanted to use them somewhere else one day.
Not familiar with the David design you speak of, but take your word for it they're not you ticket.
Yea, not a big fan of horns for mids and highs at all, awesome for bass, just not my cup of tea above that, but yes lots of folks like horns for their high sensitivity.

An alternative for decent sensitivity and low distortion are the AMT mid/tweeters, like the AMTPRO-4s that Parts Express offer. They are 94dB 1w/1m SPL, and will handle lots of power if crossed over above, say, 1.8-2.5k. They fall off slightly above 10k, but they take eq very well.
Compared to using horns though, not going to approach SPL that is well over 100dB, how loud is loud enough for you though? Might be a question to ask yourself..dunno..

I actually have a pair of the AMTs that I was going to use, but because I'm a picky sob and they didn't sound quite as good as my ESLs, I've decided to sell them and go through the very time consuming task of building another set of ESLs and associated electronics, which will take me months to get everything right. (completely from scratch)
I'd buy a pair, but don't have 10k lying around..lol, plus this newer type of segmented design in ESLs isn't even available commercially anywhere, at any price.

Oh, happy day and lucky me..haha..

Cheers
-Steve

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