Seos 24, 135Hz Midbass Horn and Quad PA460 18" - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 79 Old 03-24-2017, 10:45 AM - Thread Starter
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Seos 24, 135Hz Midbass Horn and Quad PA460 18"

Hey Everyone!

Wanted to share these horns I've been working on, I initially built them last fall (like November), the midbass horn is tuned to 135hz and an Inlow design. He supplys plans, I took my own take on constructing them but was able to keep them acoustically accurate to the design, they measure quite accurately to the Hornresp modeling. They use a B&C 12PE32 12" midbass woofer, man this thing cracks, 100db efficiency, can't play bass to save it's life but it has a cone so thin it only has one side and boy does it do midrange and midbass well.



I built one first from Aruco ply and then the second from Maple ply, they are raw wood. Each one vary a little dimensionally but they measure basically the same.

The high frequency horns are obviously DIYSG Seos 24s with the Radian 745PB 1.4" compression driver

I originally, concerned about time alignment, mounted the Seos 24 to the back of the midbass horn so the voice coils of the 12" and CD were in alignment, I had them set up active and wasn't really happy with the sound possibly due to CD diffraction off the midbass horn, so I put them in the corner and worked on other projects. But last week I pulled them out and did some simple passive XO for them and built some new Seos mounts and wow, I'm thrilled with how they sound!

They measure quite flat from 100-18k and I brought the CD down to give things a downward FR, the CD is about 3db quieter than the midbass for a BSC effect and warmer sound. XO is around 550hz, 12db LR, I messed with a few configurations but ended up with a totally symmetrical XO with the same values in each, that sounded and measured the best.

Everything in the mounting stands are balanced (neither horn are screwed to anything), the midbass horn balances in the stand and the Seos sits securely in the base, the whole setup is quite stable and I really didn't feel like screwing holes in anything.

I sort of went "rat rod" with the XO and stands using some wood from some pallets at work that was nicely weathered. I figured it hearkened to the old fashioned heritage of horns =) The XO velcro to the midbass horn.

Here is a couple video of them playing with some closeup video detail, see my YouTube for more videos of them playing:



These things sound incredible, BIG with wide and deep imaging. They are so fast, high hats CRACK, the horns are so smooth, its a different sound than the average dome tweeter but when that sax starts playing and you close your eyes, it is eerily realistic.

I'm not sure what I'll do about bass in the future, I have a few other big projects but will likely pair them with an upcoming 18" Aura build I'm doing.

Lemme know what you think, I had a blast making these and listening to them.

Thanks!
Javad

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post #2 of 79 Old 03-24-2017, 01:19 PM
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Awesome! I love the look of those. I'm a fan of unfinished wood.

I never thought about mid-bass horns. Usually these MBM builds are all ported boxes. How deep (length?) are the horns in their entirety?

I have some 15" PA drivers sitting around and if I can find T/S parameters, something like this could be fun for a MBM.
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post #3 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 03:57 AM
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This is the most exciting looking design that I have scene in forever! Do you plan to eventually add a woofer below the mid horn for a true 3-way design? Something such as an AE TD15 or TD18 would be pretty impressive. I personally would have kept it active that way you could more easily experiment with different woofer configurations. Overall, I am very impressed. One day down the line you could add a Be diaphragm on that Radian 745PB compression driver and likely have a world class speaker!
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post #4 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 06:19 AM
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That geometric woodworking though. Wow. Nice job I can't imagine what it took to figure all that out

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post #5 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 07:15 AM
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One question about the actual mid horn construction. Is there a reason why four pieces of wood wasn't used or is it built in what looks like three sections because of slight flaring as it gets longer?

They look nice and am sure sound nice as well!
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post #6 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 07:25 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SilentJ20 View Post
Awesome! I love the look of those. I'm a fan of unfinished wood.



I never thought about mid-bass horns. Usually these MBM builds are all ported boxes. How deep (length?) are the horns in their entirety?



I have some 15" PA drivers sitting around and if I can find T/S parameters, something like this could be fun for a MBM.


Thanks for the words! The advantage of a horn like this over the average Ported or sealed design is efficiency, this midbass horn's driver gets about 6db efficiency added just from being installed in the horn, it's quite impressive and that consequently gives the unit incredibly sharp transient attack, much more so than any other speaker I've built.

This design is really only good to about 120hz so I'd recommend looking at a design that is tuned to about 60-80hz for incredible midbass duty, at that point your 100watt amp thinks it's 400 watts. The main issue with these full length horns is size, but for midbass you could do a folded horn design.

Thanks,
Javad
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post #7 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 07:26 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
This is the most exciting looking design that I have scene in forever! Do you plan to eventually add a woofer below the mid horn for a true 3-way design? Something such as an AE TD15 or TD18 would be pretty impressive. I personally would have kept it active that way you could more easily experiment with different woofer configurations. Overall, I am very impressed. One day down the line you could add a Be diaphragm on that Radian 745PB compression driver and likely have a world class speaker!


Thanks for the words! Not sure what my plans are for these, I've had a lot of interest to buy them but if I do keep them I'm considering building a 40hz folded horn to take up the bottom end, we'll see =)

Thanks!
Javad
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post #8 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 07:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audiovideoholic View Post
One question about the actual mid horn construction. Is there a reason why four pieces of wood wasn't used or is it built in what looks like three sections because of slight flaring as it gets longer?



They look nice and am sure sound nice as well!


You bet, my compound miter saw can cut an 11" wide board, I built some fixtures to lock in all the compound angles and then it's just a matter of building the horn out of a series of 9-11" thick slices, which is what you see here.

There are other techniques to build these and after trying a few this was the way I decided to go, really happy with how they turned out and I can build one 4-sided layer cut and glued up in less than 30 minutes from walking in the wood shop.

Thanks!
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post #9 of 79 Old 03-25-2017, 01:15 PM
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Those look great! Love the look of the raw lumber , I'd never be able to keep them clean though . Beautiful work .
Now that I'm looking at the multi part horn panels closer , I'm imagining how they would look if they were made from many more sections , translam , with a slight rotation to each subsequent piece , rotating the horn as it expands outward . I'm sure it's not desires acoustically , but dammit , the wheels are turning now .
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post #10 of 79 Old 03-26-2017, 04:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshadzi View Post
You bet, my compound miter saw can cut an 11" wide board, I built some fixtures to lock in all the compound angles and then it's just a matter of building the horn out of a series of 9-11" thick slices, which is what you see here.

There are other techniques to build these and after trying a few this was the way I decided to go, really happy with how they turned out and I can build one 4-sided layer cut and glued up in less than 30 minutes from walking in the wood shop.

Thanks!
Have you done any polar measurements to see how this midhorn's directivity matches up with the Seos24? With the big Seos24 likely handling directivity and pattern down to 500hz or lower, what advantages does this mid horn have over just using a regular 10" to 15" cone mid?
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post #11 of 79 Old 03-26-2017, 07:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
Have you done any polar measurements to see how this midhorn's directivity matches up with the Seos24? With the big Seos24 likely handling directivity and pattern down to 500hz or lower, what advantages does this mid horn have over just using a regular 10" to 15" cone mid?


Definitely considered that though I evaluated more using FR and listening impressions. The main advantage of the midbass horn is efficiency.

You can read more here 135Hz Segmented Horn Midbass Build, let me know your thoughts.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi...ass-build.html

A really tempting speaker I'm considering in the future would be this Seos 24 setup paired with two of the 12PE32 sealed crossing over to an 18" around 150hz.

Thanks,
Javad
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post #12 of 79 Old 03-26-2017, 08:17 AM
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Listened to the first vid with my Sennheisers. sounds fantastic! Great clarity. Horns doing horns. Thats the ways to do a demo.
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post #13 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 05:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshadzi View Post
...
I originally, concerned about time alignment, mounted the Seos 24 to the back of the midbass horn so the voice coils of the 12" and CD were in alignment, I had them set up active and wasn't really happy with the sound possibly due to CD diffraction off the midbass horn, ....
.....
What is your opinion of the size pairing on the JBL screen array speakers? It seems the matching horn length and mouth size of the tweeter and mid might help with time delay and other factors.
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post #14 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 08:52 AM - Thread Starter
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What is your opinion of the size pairing on the JBL screen array speakers? It seems the matching horn length and mouth size of the tweeter and mid might help with time delay and other factors.


That solves the time alignment issue nicely, however with a 2k hz XO between mid and tweeter they are nowhere near 1/4 wavelength so lobing will be a concern. The fact that I'm using one driver from 600-20k eliminates the driver spacing issue.

Javad
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post #15 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 09:32 AM
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Wow! Impressive build quality and I like this horn system.

What are you using for the low end?
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post #16 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 10:32 AM
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Best thread I have ever seen on this forum. Direct rads? Pfft.

Awesome work, kudos. Now you know, why horns.
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post #17 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 11:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Wow! Impressive build quality and I like this horn system.

What are you using for the low end?


Thanks Scott! I have an upcoming Aura 18" build, likely will do sealed in about 4-5 cubes.



Javad
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post #18 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 11:09 PM - Thread Starter
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Best thread I have ever seen on this forum. Direct rads? Pfft.



Awesome work, kudos. Now you know, why horns.


Wow thanks for the kind words, so glad you like the build =)

Thanks!
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post #19 of 79 Old 03-27-2017, 11:44 PM
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Wow thanks for the kind words, so glad you like the build =)

Thanks!
Javad
Agree, what nice job and what a sound the camera picks up You might have sold a few Radian drivers here, the old ones with Aluminum diaphragms . How do you like this at higher volumes.

Good luck with the sub, but why not build a horn for that too, perhaps 45Hz horn, bent horns can work if space is limited .

Any plots with this driver and the SEOS24?
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post #20 of 79 Old 03-28-2017, 07:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Agree, what nice job and what a sound the camera picks up You might have sold a few Radian drivers here, the old ones with Aluminum diaphragms . How do you like this at higher volumes.



Good luck with the sub, but why not build a horn for that too, perhaps 45Hz horn, bent horns can work if space is limited .



Any plots with this driver and the SEOS24?


Thanks! Yea really pleased with this driver and especially the wide range it can play! I'd put it on par with the DE250 from 1500hz and up. I did post a plot, here it is again, this is a quick I room measurement about 1 meter out. They get incredibly loud and clean, high hats and rim shots are truly startling st louder volumes!



Thanks!
Javad
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post #21 of 79 Old 03-28-2017, 08:27 AM - Thread Starter
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Ahh and regarding subwoofers, I'm definitely building the Aura so that's in the near future and it will pair with another build in doing, definitely considering a horn subwoofer too as I've never built one and want to, just no immediate plans.

Javad
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Thanks Scott! I have an upcoming Aura 18" build, likely will do sealed in about 4-5 cubes.



Javad
I like your style, sir!

Good luck with the sub build. Should match up nicely with these speakers.
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post #23 of 79 Old 03-28-2017, 08:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Thanks Scott! =)
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post #24 of 79 Old 07-21-2017, 08:17 AM - Thread Starter
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Ok time to fire this project back up! I've been enjoying these horns for the last year or so but haven't had a subwoofer solution to go with them. I got a bug to build some subwoofers so here we are! Four 6.5 cubic foot enclosures will house 4 PA460 pro subs, tuning will be in the 25-35hz range.

I'll be designing the enclosures for 2 configurations.

1- they will be able to be attached in pair to each other back to back in a dual opposed configuration, this will be how they'll be used with the 135hz horn and Seos24z which will both sit on top, and be crossed over around 115hz to the 135hz horn.

2 - stacked on top of each other with the Seos24 on top, crossed over at 500hz, the PA460 actually plays quite cleanly to 1000hz.

Got all the wood cut on Wed and have a great start by Friday morning. Total wood is just over 3 sheets of plywood.















More to come!
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post #25 of 79 Old 07-22-2017, 05:39 PM - Thread Starter
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Little update, coming along but 4 6ft cabinets simultaneously is quite the juggling act!

To continue the "rat rod" theme the front baffles will be made from reclaimed pallet wood

First I cleaned it all up with a brush and checked for any nails or metal



Then I trimmed and squared the ends



Then ripped them to create two parallel sides





Clamped up gluing





And out of the clamps after an hour



Driver and port layout



Center points for driver cutout and ports drilled, then transferred to the front pallet wood baffle which is doweled in 4 places to accurately locate it





4 subs with baffles doweled and located



All baffle through holes routed out, the 5" ports will attach to the pallet baffle, the sub will mount in the base baffle and be recessed by the pallet baffle



Little trick when routing large holes, leave a few perforations till the end




Sides doweled, glued and clamped

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very cool. even the "outrigger" crossovers are cool. nice work.


maybe things don't translate from speakers to camera mics to compressed youtubes, but i'm detecting that something isn't quite right through the mids, but i can't put my finger on it. maybe just a funky camera mic or something.

Listen. It's All Good.
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post #27 of 79 Old 07-22-2017, 08:52 PM - Thread Starter
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very cool. even the "outrigger" crossovers are cool. nice work.


maybe things don't translate from speakers to camera mics to compressed youtubes, but i'm detecting that something isn't quite right through the mids, but i can't put my finger on it. maybe just a funky camera mic or something.


Thanks! These are just iPhone 7 recordings so tough to read into them too much, but things like transients and dynamics definitely show well in videos like this. Also keep in mind there is a sharp roll off below 135hz so there is a lot of lower midrange missing. Also the mid horn does have a unique horn sound, but it's oh so fast and efficient.

Javad
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post #28 of 79 Old 07-23-2017, 09:58 PM - Thread Starter
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Started the morning with 4 enclosures with 4 sides



A little overhang on the sides needed to be flush cut, BTW if you're not using a 1/2" spiral up cut dual bearing bit, check it out you're missing out!





Next step to cut out the pallet baffle woofer flush hole plus port provisions, 2 5" ports per baffle. BTW these enclosures will be able to accept virtually any 18" on the market for future possibilities



I always clean up the router cut with a 2" sanding drum, works very well



All cut, baffle is located with 4 dowels



Sanding the backs so they'll take adhesive well



5" port tubes all cut to 9", this will give a 35/25hz port tuning option if one port is plugged



Back of baffle with receiver groove



Port tubes secured with wood glue and Loctite construction adhesive







Ready for glue up



Glued and clamped with Loctite heavy duty construction adhesive, I used this as the pallet baffles have an irregular surface that wood glue may not be viscous enough to grab.



Thanks,
Javad
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post #29 of 79 Old 07-23-2017, 10:18 PM
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Really diggin the rat rod theme! The boxes look nice all around and the front is a nice touch.
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post #30 of 79 Old 07-23-2017, 10:41 PM
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Love the reclaimed wood look.

What are your ports made out of? And where do you get them? They look like cardboard.


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