HTM-12, Fusion 15, or PSA?? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 02:32 PM - Thread Starter
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HTM-12, Fusion 15, or PSA??

My room is 16 wide at the screen, and 19 wide in the back. It jogs out on one wall in about the middle of the room. It is 21 feet long with an 11.5 foot ceiling in the front row.

The center will be behind an AT screen. The L & R channels may or may not be behind the screen -- I still haven't decided whether to put them just outside the screen on stands so I can tinker with toe in and also slide them more toward the middle when I mask the 2.35:1 screen for watching 16:9 content. (Although not the primary focus of this post, any input on which L/R set up -- behind the screen or just outside the screen -- would work better would be appreciated too.)

I will have at least 2 subs in the room to handle the low frequency duty.

I'm considering as front speakers: (a) HTM-12; (b) Fusion 15; (c) some other DIY design someone may recommend; or (d) Power Sound Audio MT-110 or MT-210. I have no idea how to make this decision because I can't go to an AV store to hear any of them, and I haven't found professional reviews for DIY speakers. Your advice would be appreciated.

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post #2 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 03:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
My room is 16 wide at the screen, and 19 wide in the back. It jogs out on one wall in about the middle of the room. It is 21 feet long with an 11.5 foot ceiling in the front row.

The center will be behind an AT screen. The L & R channels may or may not be behind the screen -- I still haven't decided whether to put them just outside the screen on stands so I can tinker with toe in and also slide them more toward the middle when I mask the 2.35:1 screen for watching 16:9 content. (Although not the primary focus of this post, any input on which L/R set up -- behind the screen or just outside the screen -- would work better would be appreciated too.)

I will have at least 2 subs in the room to handle the low frequency duty.

I'm considering as front speakers: (a) HTM-12; (b) Fusion 15; (c) some other DIY design someone may recommend; or (d) Power Sound Audio MT-110 or MT-210. I have no idea how to make this decision because I can't go to an AV store to hear any of them, and I haven't found professional reviews for DIY speakers. Your advice would be appreciated.
The only thing I can comment on is the Fusion 15's. They are phenomenal speakers and would be able to hang with speakers costing $2,000 a piece. I went into them blindly without hearing them based on reviews here and on DIYSG. I dare you to try to find one person that wasn't very impressed. They are very easy to build the hardest part was finishing them. You can have the crossovers premade by mtg90 here on avs or just buy the boards from him to solder to. That is what I did.

Every time I turn them on I crack a smile. Very well balanced not too bright and not dull in any way and can produce clean sound untill your ears can't handle it as long as you have a good amp. Speaking of amps these can easily be run off an AVR at 99db sensitivity. The wide imaging field is unreal. When I first built them I kept checking if I had the center channel on because I could not believe any sound was not coming from the center channel (F-15 as well).

I can honestly promise you that you would not be disappointed with them.

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post #3 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 03:41 PM
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post #4 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 03:50 PM
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lol, just about any of the fusion stuff from diysg will stomp psa.
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post #5 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 05:08 PM
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@GatorBlues ,

I was trying to decide between the HTM-12 and F-15 myself for a 15x20x10 space.
I didn't go with AT screen because my masking system is not AT. So I was limited
in placement options. I only have 34 inches below the screen.
I went with my simplistic thinking process... Bigger woofer, bigger box, less regret.
So I pulled the trigger on 3 F-15s. This is as big as I can get given the placement
limitations.

The HTM-12 has been said to perform better than F-15s if placed in a baffle wall. I am
not sure how much difference you would see. Also, things are only "better" or "worse"
when you are AB'ing them. Once they are installed in your room, they become the best.
In other words, I don't think you could go wrong with either the HTM-12 or F-15.

This is only a newbie's opinion. My first build was 4 Volt-10LX as Atmos speakers
for my 5.2.4 set up. They were ordered April 4, received them April 8, and in the ceiling April 9.
F15s then ordered April 17.
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post #6 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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lol, just about any of the fusion stuff from diysg will stomp psa.
Interesting. I chose PSA as a comparison/possible option because, based on my reading, they seem to be very well regarded as theater speakers. The other highly regarded, but less readily available, manufacturer that caught my eye was QSC. Do you feel that DIYSG stomps QSC also?

Is there some other manufacturer I should look at as a comparable product to the HTM-12 and Fusion 15 if I get cold feet about building? Maybe the JBL 3677?

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post #7 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 07:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
Interesting. I chose PSA as a comparison/possible option because, based on my reading, they seem to be very well regarded as theater speakers. The other highly regarded, but less readily available, manufacturer that caught my eye was QSC. Do you feel that DIYSG stomps QSC also?

Is there some other manufacturer I should look at as a comparable product to the HTM-12 and Fusion 15 if I get cold feet about building? Maybe the JBL 3677?
PSA uses small ti cds with oldnews horns. QSC is much improved in this department. The diysg waveguides are much better than the ones PSA uses, as are the CDs.

The JBL 3677 is decent, but it's also a bit long in the tooth. It's response is shaped to the x-curve. The woofer is fine, but not a big fan of the CD/waveguide in it. I'd recommend the 4722n and swap the cd to a 2453h-sl. The DIYSG stuff is great and the prices are astounding for what you get. I don't know what your room is like but you might also want to check out the titans from diysg.
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post #8 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 07:55 PM - Thread Starter
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PSA uses small ti cds with oldnews horns. QSC is much improved in this department. The diysg waveguides are much better than the ones PSA uses, as are the CDs.

The JBL 3677 is decent, but it's also a bit long in the tooth. It's response is shaped to the x-curve. The woofer is fine, but not a big fan of the CD/waveguide in it. I'd recommend the 4722n and swap the cd to a 2453h-sl. The DIYSG stuff is great and the prices are astounding for what you get. I don't know what your room is like but you might also want to check out the titans from diysg.
I think the Titans are too tall for my room, unfortunately. My theater is sunken, and the center channel has to sit on a concrete ledge where a niche will be built into the unfinished space that has a higher floor. Setting the Titan on top of the ledge would put the waveguide 5.5 feet high from the perspective of the front row, only 10 feet back.

Do you recommend the HTM-12 or Fusion 15? So far, the Fusion seems to be winning out.

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post #9 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 08:08 PM
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Quote:
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I think the Titans are too tall for my room, unfortunately. My theater is sunken, and the center channel has to sit on a concrete ledge where a niche will be built into the unfinished space that has a higher floor. Setting the Titan on top of the ledge would put the waveguide 5.5 feet high from the perspective of the front row, only 10 feet back.

Do you recommend the HTM-12 or Fusion 15? So far, the Fusion seems to be winning out.
Well if you like midbass. The 15 inch woofer is hard to pass up. And the larger compression driver DNA 325 vs DNA 360 should also make a difference in the highs. I think now it comes down to your space requirements. If you can fit the F15 it has two clear advantages. Compression driver and woofer size.

Just search MBM or mid bass module here on AVS and see how many people here on these forums are looking to add more midbass. That is where the larger woofer shines.

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post #10 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
I think the Titans are too tall for my room, unfortunately. My theater is sunken, and the center channel has to sit on a concrete ledge where a niche will be built into the unfinished space that has a higher floor. Setting the Titan on top of the ledge would put the waveguide 5.5 feet high from the perspective of the front row, only 10 feet back.
You could turn the woofer box sideways if needed (if you have the space to do that), that would save you about 10". So the height for ideal listening axis would only be 26-34" which really isn't much taller then the Fusion-15.
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post #11 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 09:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Well if you like midbass. The 15 inch woofer is hard to pass up. And the larger compression driver DNA 325 vs DNA 360 should also make a difference in the highs. I think now it comes down to your space requirements. If you can fit the F15 it has two clear advantages. Compression driver and woofer size.

Just search MBM or mid bass module here on AVS and see how many people here on these forums are looking to add more midbass. That is where the larger woofer shines.

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I'm having the speaker niche(s) built next week, so I can draw it up to fit. Thanks.

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post #12 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 09:24 PM - Thread Starter
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This thread has been most helpful. Thanks again.

How do all of you feel about the idea of putting only the center (based on this thread so far, likely a third Fusion 15) behind the AT screen and leaving the L & R in the room, where I can more easily tinker with angling them in and slide them closer together for 16:9 content? I don't think having the center father back (which it would be if it's the only one behind the screen) ought to hurt the sound. However, I'm still learning about acoustical issues and thus recognize that I could be wrong about that conclusion.

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post #13 of 31 Unread 04-18-2017, 09:47 PM
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The AVR should be able to correct for the different distances so no issues there.
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post #14 of 31 Unread 04-19-2017, 04:34 AM
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Quote:
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This thread has been most helpful. Thanks again.

How do all of you feel about the idea of putting only the center (based on this thread so far, likely a third Fusion 15) behind the AT screen and leaving the L & R in the room, where I can more easily tinker with angling them in and slide them closer together for 16:9 content? I don't think having the center father back (which it would be if it's the only one behind the screen) ought to hurt the sound. However, I'm still learning about acoustical issues and thus recognize that I could be wrong about that conclusion.
The screen will attenuate the highs a little bit but shouldn't be that noticeable. I wouldn't sweat putting two behind one in front. These speakers were designed with being used behind a screen in mind.

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post #15 of 31 Unread 04-19-2017, 08:36 AM
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I have an htm12 build thread.
After breakin and placement they are amazing.

They use light weight components making for a really nice weight. More than enough for your room. The 15s are a big price jump.

If u go one behind screen u can set that one with an attenuator off and the others on.

U will like either. I would base it upon what u think fits your budget and needs.
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post #16 of 31 Unread 04-19-2017, 09:19 AM
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I have a trio of HTM-12s almost finished up, and the one I have tested sounded great. I might have gone with the F-15 if I had enough room behind my screen, but the shallow depth of the HTM-12 made it a clear choice for me. I think you'll be happy with either, but if you have the space and the budget the F-15 will give you more output.
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post #17 of 31 Unread 04-21-2017, 04:37 AM
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So, @GatorBlues have you made
up your mind?

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post #18 of 31 Unread 04-21-2017, 06:22 AM
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Hey GatorBlues I get your dilemma and I will be purchasing the Fusion 15s when the time comes. I agree with everything David Varner is saying and if you have the room go big, with the larger wave guide and woofer I think it is a no brainer. Also if you are afraid of the build speak to Erich from DIYSG and he has a guy that will do the build of the boxes ready for paint and all you have to do is put the speaker components in which there is a huge community here to help you with that if you need it.

David question for you regarding getting more mid bass which everyone seems to want, how can you do that? My room size is 17x22x8 and I will be going with Fusion 15 up front with 2 18" Stonehenge on the left and right side of the centre behind a 133" AT screen, 10 Volt 10lx 6 for surrounds and 4 for atmos. Seating will be starting at sitting position 9' with 2 rows and a back bar. The challenge for sound it is not a dedicated room the left side is open for a seating area and fireplace so I guess its more like an L shaped room. With this setup is there any reason for more speakers, will the volts give me the midbass I'm looking for or should I put midbass speakers in the columns under the volts? Will I need a second or third component to drive those speakers, my receiver will be an Anthem 1120 or please suggest something that will work instead of the Anthem (really like the room calibration of the Anthem) Anyone's help will be greatly appreciated.

Thx Duane
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post #19 of 31 Unread 04-21-2017, 09:34 AM
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Unless you have the ability to EQ the mains at their lower end, you can't really set the midbass of the Fusions or HTMs higher. You can place them somewhere will there will be more midbass (such as near the walls) but if you put your system through an autocorrection it will look to flatten things anyway.

My personal view is this -- don't buy the 12's or the 15's or anything really simply with the thought of getting more mid-bass. i.e. the 15 is more than the 12. It is technically, but will it really play more for you? Do you want a full range type speaker? There are considerations here that go beyond just the midbass imo.

The waveguides are key, but really you want to select a speaker that has more than enough capability to fill your room AND --
you want to try and match the rest of your system as best you can to whichever you buy as mains.

IMO, you can enhance your midbass through your subs, through placement, or by adding MBMs. But I have some direct experience here and will say the mid bass is AWESOME! But I don't think I would be getting more if I had F15s vs HTM12s. And the waveguides are both 15s. There's a lot of differences in the designs so look carefully and buy whichever you like best.
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post #20 of 31 Unread 04-21-2017, 10:44 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm leaning toward the Fusion 15 at the moment, but I need to mock up the room before I make a final decision on anything. The room is only exterior framing at the moment, so I have another week or two to layout the potential sizes of things with tape and carboard.

My wife vetoed the L&R speakers being in the room, so we'll be building three niches into the unfinished space. Now, all three front speakers will be in niches with the front of each speaker flush with the front wall of the theater, behind an AT screen. I doubt that makes a difference with respect to which speakers everyone would recommend, but if it does, please let me know.

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post #21 of 31 Unread 04-22-2017, 07:52 PM
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I'm leaning toward the Fusion 15 at the moment, but I need to mock up the room before I make a final decision on anything. The room is only exterior framing at the moment, so I have another week or two to layout the potential sizes of things with tape and carboard.

My wife vetoed the L&R speakers being in the room, so we'll be building three niches into the unfinished space. Now, all three front speakers will be in niches with the front of each speaker flush with the front wall of the theater, behind an AT screen. I doubt that makes a difference with respect to which speakers everyone would recommend, but if it does, please let me know.
I do know that is exactly what the fusion 15's were designed for. There is an optional padding resistor in the crossover that can be added if you did not want to put them behind a screen. That is for attenuating the highs a bit. I do not have mine behind a screen and left it out. I don't not find the highs too bright at all without it. Just mentioning it to let you know what the designer mtg90 who commented in this thread had in mind for the F-15's.


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I have a couple more questions if you don't mind bearing with me.

1. Are there in-walls you would recommend as surround speakers that would work well with the Fusion 15 (or HTM-12)? My wife does not want on wall speakers, so I was hoping to build narrow columns with 2x4s and use in wall surrounds mounted into the columns. I won't mount them into the existing walls because of soundproofing. I hope not to build deeper columns because room width will be an issue.

2. Same question for Atmos -- I'll need four in ceiling height speakers that will blend well with the Fusions or HTM-12s up front.

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I have a couple more questions if you don't mind bearing with me.

1. Are there in-walls you would recommend as surround speakers that would work well with the Fusion 15 (or HTM-12)? My wife does not want on wall speakers, so I was hoping to build narrow columns with 2x4s and use in wall surrounds mounted into the columns. I won't mount them into the existing walls because of soundproofing. I hope not to build deeper columns because room width will be an issue.

2. Same question for Atmos -- I'll need four in ceiling height speakers that will blend well with the Fusions or HTM-12s up front.
Your best bet would be DIYSG Volts. They come in 6 8 or 10. They are coxial speakers which means they have a broad dispersion pattern 90deg X 90deg. They also use the same compression driver for the highs as the F-15's. They use the cone as waveguide that is how the achieve the broad dispersion. That is exactly what you want for surrounds and even more so for atmos. Also designed by the same guy. The will be pretty well timbre matched. I will be building 4 volt 10's very soon for surrounds.

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post #24 of 31 Unread Today, 03:47 PM - Thread Starter
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Your best bet would be DIYSG Volts. They come in 6 8 or 10. They are coxial speakers which means they have a broad dispersion pattern 90deg X 90deg. They also use the same compression driver for the highs as the F-15's. They use the cone as waveguide that is how the achieve the broad dispersion. That is exactly what you want for surrounds and even more so for atmos. Also designed by the same guy. The will be pretty well timbre matched. I will be building 4 volt 10's very soon for surrounds.

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Is there a shallow vox option for the Volts that would allow me to mount them in a shallow column?

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Is there a shallow vox option for the Volts that would allow me to mount them in a shallow column?
The volts are shallow. They are a pretty shallow box compared to most speakers. Go on DIYSG and check the dimensions. I want to put them on stands and for that reason they would look kind of funny. Perfect for mounting in columns I have seen a few threads with people doing that with beautiful results.

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7 inches deep

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7 inches deep

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Should I look at angled instead? Also, V6, 8, or 10 to go with the F15s?

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Quote:
Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
Should I look at angled instead? Also, V6, 8, or 10 to go with the F15s?
The volt 10 uses the exact same compression driver. You would also be fine with smaller one they are the same brand compression driver just smaller. If you are installing atoms you really want the surround speakers to be at ear level and the atmos speakers to be higher to create a separation from your bed layer of speakers. Any of volts would be fine I would not go any smaller than 8's for your surround speakers. You could get away with 6's for atmos or use 8's for everything. don't know how familar you are with atmos but alot more than most people think get sent to atmos speakers. I was very surprised once I installed mine. Just some cheap in cieling speakers. I had no way to get volts into my cieling without alot of custom work or I would have. You would be fine going with the f-15's as well if you could swing it that is really they best having all matching speakers for your surrounds I have thought about it but they are some big boxes to have all around the room.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Varner View Post
The volt 10 uses the exact same compression driver. You would also be fine with smaller one they are the same brand compression driver just smaller. If you are installing atoms you really want the surround speakers to be at ear level and the atmos speakers to be higher to create a separation from your bed layer of speakers. Any of volts would be fine I would not go any smaller than 8's for your surround speakers. You could get away with 6's for atmos or use 8's for everything. don't know how familar you are with atmos but alot more than most people think get sent to atmos speakers. I was very surprised once I installed mine. Just some cheap in cieling speakers. I had no way to get volts into my cieling without alot of custom work or I would have.
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Originally Posted by GatorBlues View Post
Should I look at angled instead? Also, V6, 8, or 10 to go with the F15s?
Just a FYI. The volts and the F15 do not share the same CD. The F15 uses the DNA360 and all the volts use the DNA150. They are all designed by Matt though.

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Just a FYI. The volts and the F15 do not share the same CD. The F15 uses the DNA360 and all the volts use the DNA150. They are all designed by Matt though.
Thanks for the correction my bad for some reason I thought they did.

Correction They all use a DNA brand compression driver.
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