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post #151 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I'm trying to figure out what kind of tires are on this Ferrari.
Then you shouldn't be so concerned about the cone of a subwoofer driver.





ProTip: a bass drivers cone is not analog to a car's tires. just fyi for future reference.
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post #152 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:21 AM
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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Then you shouldn't be so concerned about the cone of a subwoofer driver.

ProTip: a bass drivers cone is not analog to a car's tires. just fyi for future reference.
You're welcome to believe whatever it is you want to believe.

Protip: if you want to convince someone else of your point-of-view, it's best to start with evidence supporting your hypothesis, not simply stating your hypothesis.
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post #153 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:29 AM
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I'm going to be honest, that dust cap sure is ugly.

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post #154 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Waffles View Post
I'm going to be honest, that dust cap sure is ugly.
"Elbows too pointy!" but for subwoofer drivers? Seriously?

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post #155 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Face2 View Post
Only here would someone suggest horn loading a 24" driver, lol.

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Originally Posted by Scott Simonian View Post
Never said it was a 24" cone or that one should horn load this driver.

Direct quote:


But you're right. Only here...

But one COULD horn load this driver.
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post #156 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:46 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
You're welcome to believe whatever it is you want to believe.

Protip: if you want to convince someone else of your point-of-view, it's best to start with evidence supporting your hypothesis, not simply stating your hypothesis.
The cone material makes no difference on the sound quality perceived. So this is a situation MUCH different than race car tires, which can change handling due to differences in tread.

No difference in performance vs difference in performance.

http://www.data-bass.com/myths

Quote:
7. Cone material affects the sound
For low frequencies, the cone on a subwoofer makes no difference in the sound whatsoever, end of story.

The only remote possible affect it could have is in the case of a metal cone or very stiff composite cone that resonates at a high frequencies and buzzes. However this frequency would be up around 500 to 2000Hz and unless you play the subwoofer at those frequencies, you'll never hear it. . The cones sole job to push air, not break and ideally not be too heavy. But they don't change the tone, pitch or sound of a subwoofer whatsoever.


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But one COULD horn load this driver.
Now THAT is a good reason to build a wall...since the horn will be roughly the size of a wall.
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post #157 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 10:43 AM
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Originally Posted by STL D View Post
The cone material makes no difference on the sound quality perceived. So this is a situation MUCH different than race car tires, which can change handling due to differences in tread.

No difference in performance vs difference in performance.

http://www.data-bass.com/myths
It's hard to argue with the mountain of evidence they presented in constructing their argument on the topic.

I have a different theory on the subject, but not one that I feel compelled to convince others of.
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post #158 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 11:05 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
It's hard to argue with the mountain of evidence they presented in constructing their argument on the topic.

I have a different theory on the subject, but not one that I feel compelled to convince others of.
If you aren't willing to offer a counterpoint, I'd suggest the conversation be dropped completely then. It is utterly pointless otherwise.

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post #159 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
It's hard to argue with the mountain of evidence they presented in constructing their argument on the topic.

I have a different theory on the subject, but not one that I feel compelled to convince others of.
I suspect what you have is a hypothesis, not a theory. Theories have supporting evidence. It would be upon you to present that evidence, to contradict the established theory that cone material is immaterial. The evidence that exists is that data-bass has measured many subwoofers and not found cone material to have an impact on sound.

If you will not provide your supporting evidence, then IMO that's the end of the story.
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post #160 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imagic View Post
I suspect what you have is a hypothesis, not a theory. Theories have supporting evidence. It would be upon you to present that evidence, to contradict the established theory that cone material is immaterial. The evidence that exists is that data-bass has measured many subwoofers and not found cone material to have an impact on sound.

If you will not provide your supporting evidence, then IMO that's the end of the story.
I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything nor contradict any existing theories. All I'm trying to get is more information on the subject of the subwoofer cone's design. The "story" of whether or not that is relevant information is not one that I'm trying to have; rather, it's a conversation that several others here seem to be insisting on.

If anyone has any additional info on the design, construction, and/or goals in the creation of this new subwoofer cone, I'd love to hear it.

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post #161 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 11:57 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything nor contradict any existing theories. All I'm trying to get is more information on the subject of the subwoofer cone's design. The "story" of whether or not that is relevant information is not one that I'm trying to have; rather, it's a conversation that several others here seems to be insisting on.

If anyone has any additional info on the design, construction, and/or goals in the creation of this new subwoofer cone, I'd love to hear it.
The goals of this over-all design is pretty straight-forward.

High power-handling, extremely high motor force, extreme displacement, and extreme low end capabilities in a small box. (well, as small as you can physically fit a 24" driver into.)
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post #162 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 04:48 PM
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Cool Yep

Can't wait to put a pair of these in my van down by the river.
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post #163 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 05:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by javanpohl View Post
I wasn't trying to convince anyone of anything nor contradict any existing theories. All I'm trying to get is more information on the subject of the subwoofer cone's design. The "story" of whether or not that is relevant information is not one that I'm trying to have; rather, it's a conversation that several others here seem to be insisting on.



If anyone has any additional info on the design, construction, and/or goals in the creation of this new subwoofer cone, I'd love to hear it.


It really seems like you're just trolling.

You created a straw man that "paper isn't suited to high performance subwoofer use", and insist on an explanation that has either been given many times or one that doesn't exist, all under the false premise of simply wanting an answer or more information.

Frankly it's absurd and I'm surprised the members on this forum have humored you as long as they have.
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post #164 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jshadzi View Post
It really seems like you're just trolling.

You created a straw man that "paper isn't suited to high performance subwoofer use", and insist on an explanation that has either been given many times or one that doesn't exist, all under the false premise of simply wanting an answer or more information.
I really don't understand why you're using quotes when I didn't say anything remotely like that.

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Frankly it's absurd and I'm surprised the members on this forum have humored you as long as they have.
Well, obviously some people on this forum have an inclination for needless bickering.
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post #165 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 06:08 PM
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The ideal speaker cone would never flex and have pure pistonic motion. It would be perfectly rigid, perfectly damped, it would have no mass and breakup modes would be non-existent. This obviously is impossible and like all engineering choices of materials you have to find one suitable for the purpose which in most cases (almost always with a consumer good) one of the key components in the evaluation is cost.

Just like the tires on the Ferrari, there is not one perfect rubber compound and no perfect tire, the perfect tire would have infinitely high grip and zero deg.

Subwoofers used at sub-100hz frequencies are essentially just air pumps and tend to have much higher distortion levels than speakers used at higher frequencies but that is fine since humans are less sensitive to this. You could build subs with closer to ideal cones but the cost tends to make it prohibitive and the audible product would be the same to a human.

If you want to read lots of discussion about cone materials those exist on the web, mostly confined to tweeter and mid-range drivers. You won't find much talk on huge subs due to price and they fact they are more like a cement truck than a Ferrari. You just don't hear the driver get out of the truck at the end of the day lamenting that he just can't the power down out of the apex until really late and is haveing bad graining on the fronts after just 5 miles.

Paper is not the perfect cone for a subwoofer but it is suitable for the purpose.
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post #166 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 07:01 PM
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Let's assume the cone bent in half, between the dustcap and the surround. That would be 3000Hz.

Have you ever known a subwoofer to produce 3000Hz? (ignoring Bose.)
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post #167 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 07:21 PM
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That said...

Where have I seen this new cone material before?
Seems eerily similar to the $265 one I got... but with a plastic-gloss dustcap.


and yes, this cone is strong. I've touched it in-person.

It could very well have glass fibers embedded. I was wondering about that myself. Doesn't seem like any treated paper cone I've ever seen before (and I've seen at least 3 different ones.)

Last edited by BassThatHz; 05-09-2017 at 07:24 PM.
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post #168 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 07:28 PM
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Your woofer with the Xbox controller has a similar appearance to some AE woofers...

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post #169 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
That said...

Where have I seen this new cone material before?
Seems eerily similar to the $265 one I got... but with a plastic-gloss dustcap.


and yes, this cone is strong. I've touched it in-person.

It could very well have glass fibers embedded. I was wondering about that myself. Doesn't seem like any treated paper cone I've ever seen before (and I've seen at least 3 different ones.)
Per Nick "the cone is a mixture of paper pulp and glass fibers (fiberglass). Its strength-to-weight ratio is more than adequate to sustain even the most strenuous situations."

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post #170 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:41 PM
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@imagic Who's pretty?
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post #171 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:43 PM
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@imagic Who's pretty?
Wow, thanks a lot, Android autocorrect.

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post #172 of 313 Old 05-09-2017, 09:46 PM
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Per Nick "the cone is a mixture of paper pulp and glass fibers (fiberglass). Its strength-to-weight ratio is more than adequate to sustain even the most strenuous situations."
As per @imagic 's post the SHS-24 cone assembly's have withstood upwards of 160 dB. I doubt there was much "warp" in the cones at that level.

Technically it was 160.1 dB but who's counting.
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post #173 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 01:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
As per @imagic 's post the SHS-24 cone assembly's have withstood upwards of 160 dB. I doubt there was much "warp" in the cones at that level.

Technically it was 160.1 dB but who's counting.
That seems to suggest that at least the initial impetus for this driver was for the SPL drag guys.
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post #174 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 02:14 AM
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Cant believe all the posts on cone material. Hungry hungry hippos.......lol.

Nick will you be "sharing," this new motor design with other subwoofers such as the 18? As in a neo 18?
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post #175 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Electrodynamic View Post
As per @imagic 's post the SHS-24 cone assembly's have withstood upwards of 160 dB. I doubt there was much "warp" in the cones at that level.

Technically it was 160.1 dB but who's counting.
That tells me everything I wanted to know. Thanks for the info guys
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post #176 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 12:35 PM
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171db is only 1psi. I'm sure it's good for atleast that much...
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post #177 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 12:44 PM
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171db is only 1psi. I'm sure it's good for atleast that much...
Thats over simplified. Its the forces applied to the cone where the VC former is attached vs the resistance of the surround and inertia of the cone mass that cause a bend in the cone somewhere between those two points.

160db seems absurd for one driver. What were the measurement conditions?
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post #178 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 12:46 PM
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160db seems absurd for one driver. What were the measurement conditions?
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post #179 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by beastaudio View Post
In the backseat of a Caddy.......Screaming like do or die.......
I think you're joking. But if not that would make more sense. The cabin gain can be quite high which implies the driver has not been tested to 160db. Not even close. The 2m GP on databass is surely much lower. Ill go have a look and see.

Edit to add - Data bass is suggesting a burst of just under 130db in a 2m controlled environment. So 160 is a pretty silly over statement. Others said Ricci destroyed the driver under these tests too, so over 130db is not happening.

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post #180 of 313 Old 05-10-2017, 01:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
Thats over simplified. Its the forces applied to the cone where the VC former is attached vs the resistance of the surround and inertia of the cone mass that cause a bend in the cone somewhere between those two points.

160db seems absurd for one driver. What were the measurement conditions?
Based on 5000 RMS power at impedance min the coil can see 50 amps, with a BL of 29.5 N/A, that means the coil has the ability to produce over 300lbs force to transfer to the cone, so the cone has to be very strong to handle that. The nice thing about paper(and most composites) is that it has a very low fatigue limit so if it couldn't handle the forces it would fail quite fast, if it handles it for the first few min at full power testing it will handle it for a very long time. With metal cones its a different story, if they are flexing beyond what they can take they may not break for quite some time as they can flex many times before breaking, so they need much longer testing.
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