72 Channels, Part 1 of 3 now completed! - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 12:04 PM - Thread Starter
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72 Channels, Part 1 of 3 now completed!

I finally pulled the trigger on this. Should be here in a few... Can't wait!

1 down, 2 more to go.

Gonna run in 192khz mode (or as high as possible.)
I sure hope the SQ on these are good... will find out soon enough!
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post #2 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 12:33 PM
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Just saying but I had those exact hosa cables that we used at a buddy's house and they were absolute garbage.
There were multiple wiring issues with each different snake. Broken wires, miswired etc.
We sent them all back and bought some custom made ones on eBay that worked great.
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post #3 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 12:36 PM
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post #4 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 01:55 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Just saying but I had those exact hosa cables that we used at a buddy's house and they were absolute garbage.
There were multiple wiring issues with each different snake. Broken wires, miswired etc.
We sent them all back and bought some custom made ones on eBay that worked great.
Ok. Hosa's are cancelled. Ordered some neutrik ones from amazon, the db connector is all metal. Looks way higher quality and only $10 per cable more.

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post #5 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 02:01 PM - Thread Starter
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Does this mean you are going return the woofer tester?
No, but I might just have to downgrade from microwaved lobster and boiled steak to this:

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post #6 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 09:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by N8DOGG View Post
Just saying but I had those exact hosa cables that we used at a buddy's house and they were absolute garbage.
There were multiple wiring issues with each different snake. Broken wires, miswired etc.
We sent them all back and bought some custom made ones on eBay that worked great.
Ok. Hosa's are cancelled. Ordered some neutrik ok ones from amazon, the db connector is all metal. Looks way higher quality and only $10 per cable more.

Much better.
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post #7 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 11:19 PM - Thread Starter
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I'm not sure if a 24ai can output 16 channels to two 24ao's via AVB or not. That's how I'd prefer it.
Alternatively, I do know I can pass it to the first ao, and that can output to the second ao (both jumps being AVB.)
Their router being supposedly capable of 128 channels bi-directional per cable, with support for 5 cables.
(I only need 3 cables and 24 channels bi-directional, at the most...)

It will be interesting to see how many channels it registers in ASIO in various modes.
I know it will do at least 24 in and out @ 192khz via USB, but I'm not sure what the max is @44khz.

I'm also curious to see how it might respond via multiple usb cables to a single computer.

In any case, I'll be able to use this single 24ao to test my app with inputs and outputs up to (at least) 24 i/o without the need for silly software like jackaudio.
Up until now I've been limited to just 8-outputs to actual hardware, and 2-in's.
I suppose once this arrives I will no longer have an excuse as to why my app isn't done. LOL
I may eventually support a nearly-unlimited number of ASIO in/out sources, but for the time being it will be 1 in and 1 out.

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post #8 of 117 Old 06-03-2017, 11:22 PM - Thread Starter
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If I stay within the 16 in @ 192 x 48 output @ 192 hardware limit, I can then use AVB.
Which according to their documentation allows for superb Master Clock sync, with jitter approaching Planck-time.
Their documentation was also throwing figures of: sub-millisecond levels of delay for real-time streams in AVB mode.

End to end, including DSP + USB transport, my delay should be <2ms in nearly all cases. If not <1ms most of the time. Which is about as close to real-time as audio things can get.
In any case, I'm not anticipating delay issues based on the testing I've done up to this point and their documentation.
Time will ultimately tell the real story.

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post #9 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 12:00 AM - Thread Starter
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One cool thing that I will be able to do with this hardware is:

Take a video player (say JRiver) and have it output some movie audio into the ao via ASIO USB.
Then route this back into my app via USB ASIO.
Then have my app process the XO's and EQ and spit it back out to the ao via ASIO/USB.
Then connect some speakers or headphones to the XLR and see how good/bad the delay is.

This would simulate the delay of going from an Atmos processor to the ai, to the ao's, to my app, and back to the ao's and amplifiers. With the video signal going directly to a projector.
(Which is how I will eventually have all of this configured, as originally planned...)

Music delay I'm not worried about because it is not dependant on the speed of light.

Where as movie playback runs at the speed of light (near-zero delay),
and the sound system is running at the much-slower speed of sound + any audio hardware delay (which is always non-zero delay).
Hence the problem.

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post #10 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 01:11 AM
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Delay the video. Problem solved.
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post #11 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 01:45 AM
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What is your over all goal with this, BThz? Are you attempting to make it to where you don't have to rely on a receiver or pre/pro? Or is this an all digital setup?
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post #12 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 08:48 AM
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Why not use a Mac and connect direct AVB? USB audio issues are gone, latency is less, but must be Mac OS X.
http://motu.com/avb/using-your-motu-...-avb-ethernet/
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post #13 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 09:54 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
Are you attempting to make it to where you don't have to rely on a receiver or pre/pro?
The short answer is: Yes, sort of....

We all know that technology changes.
Especially: discs, audio formats, channel count, players, processor features/capabilities, and digital wires like HDMI.

The conventional strategy is separates.
A player, connected to a processor, connected to amplifiers.

The problem is: every time you upgrade your processor, you lose all of your speaker settings.
This isn't much of a problem if you don't have active multi-way speakers, and only 1 or 2 subs.
But when you have multiple many-way active's and an array of active subs, that is a HUGE pain in the arse.

The other problem is: SQ and routing.

SQ:
DCX's and miniDSP's don't exactly have the best SQ. The noisefloor isn't super great.
(I have high hopes for the Motu. I hope they don't disappoint.)

But most importantly is routing:
The DCX only has 3 in's. A miniDSP only has 10 in's (at most).
This is a problem if you are trying to input a 12+ channel Atmos stream (and whatever else they think up in the future)
and then split it into 20 active speaker-drivers and 32 active subs.
The miniDSP can't accept or route past 10 (without spaghetti wiring 6 of them together!)

The Motu's on the other hand have significantly higher channel-count routing.
The 8A/16A is able to do 128 simultaneous channels in and out at full 24/96 Bluray quality, over 1 Cat5 cable. All of this in 1 rack-unit.
Unfortunately the 24's are limited to 64 channels in and 32 channels out, per device @ 24/96, over 1 Cat5 cable; and 32x16@192khz (Still plenty for me.)

With a single Motu router you can easily route 48 analog inputs to 72 analog outputs with 2 ai's and 3 ao's. Via 5 Cat5 cables.
Making for a very sleek, tangle-free/headache-free experience.

Attach a 2nd router and a 8A/16A and now you can push the 48x72 into 1 USB 3.0 or Thunderbolt cable (if you needed to...)
[Note: A stack of up-to 5040 routers are supported, each handling 1024 digital channels in/out.]

With Motu handling the hardware routing, and my app handling the XO's/EQ's, I basically have unlimited processing capabilities, (and it remembers your settings, even when HDMI 9.0 comes out and your player and processor is upgraded!)

The interface being all-analog XLR.
Analog is forever!

2-ch? No problem!
Dolby Surround? No problem!
Dolby Digital? No problem!
DTS? No problem!
HD/Master Audio? No problem!
Atmos? No problem!
Some future format that doesn't even exist yet? No problem!
But I want to change my XO's, EQ's on the fly? No problem!
But I want to add more than 32 speakers/subs? No problem!
But I want to add multiple many-way active's? No problem!
But I want to add LFE to all the channels, including the Atmos heights? No problem!
But I want a rear-height center and back-center matrixed from the heights and surrounds, and similar for wides or top-center? No problem!
But I want the LFE to go to just the mains but not the others, or vice-versa? No problem!
But I want to filter out bass from all the channels and redirect it to all the subs? No problem!
Or just a select group of subs, including from 2ch sources without changing modes or re-wiring anything? No problem!
But I want the bass from the heights to go to just the corresponding surrounds or vice-versa? No problem!
While the LFE goes there too, and the bass from the mains or just the center, or vice-versa? No problem!

Problem solved!

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post #14 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 10:12 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AV Hack View Post
Why not use a Mac and connect direct AVB? USB audio issues are gone, latency is less, but must be Mac OS X.
http://motu.com/avb/using-your-motu-...-avb-ethernet/
I'm only pushing Atmos in, and X number of channels out. I'm not getting "too crazy" with it.
2 fanless NUC's, each having a USB cable is what I'd likely do (if that is even needed.)

Or an 8A which has USB 3.0, Thunderbolt, and AVB (and is half the price of the 16A).
All supporting 64x64 channels @192 (or more) via the 1 cable.

In any case, it will be 1 or 2 dedicated computers "of some sort" for just this task.

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post #15 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 12:14 PM - Thread Starter
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I think it will be here by the 16th by the shipping estimator when I checked-out.


The cables on the other hand, since they are custom made, won't be here until 2-3weeks after that time (Mid-July)


That said, amazon showed they had 3 in stock, which is exactly how many I ordered, so I'm hoping that wasn't a lie and that they can just send those 3 on their way starting tomorrow.
Had I ordered all 9 at once they would have delayed it FOR SURE, so I didn't go there... two batches is fine. (I only need 1 working cable for testing.)
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post #16 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 06:06 PM
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Does a codec for atmos exist yet ? I was under the impression HTPC couldn't decode atmos yet.
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post #17 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 07:25 PM - Thread Starter
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Does a codec for atmos exist yet ? I was under the impression HTPC couldn't decode atmos yet.
I'm building an analog-XLR based XO/EQ/router. Not a HTPC.

one 24ai, and two 24ao's
24 analog XLR inputs, 48 analog XLR outputs.
With possible future expansion to an unlimited number of channels.

(Internally the XO/EQ uses ASIO PCM running @ -123dbA 24/192, which is just a necessarily-evil to allow for permanent future-proofing.)

You still need a disc player and a processor.

Question: How many processors do you know of that can do 48x48 channels of discrete XO/EQ in multi-way mode or even 256x256 channels?
Answer: Like none.

This can...
Which is exactly what I need.

Can an 8802A do multi-way?
Nope!
What about a Yamaha?
Nope!
What about a XMC-1?
Nope!
What about an Oppo?
Nope!
What about a Trinnov?
Yep, but only up to 32 channels (for like $40-50k) I'm sure it is a nice unit, and for that price... it better be!
For $50k it better come with a "first 100" card to a Tesla Roadster 2.0 or a year's worth of free tip dips at a local casting couch.

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post #18 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 08:26 PM
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Totally enthused about this , but have no idea why . I doubt I'll ever need anything remotely close to this scale , and I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you are doing , but it looks kinda mad scientist , so I'm looking forward to what comes next!

It was like that when I got here
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post #19 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 10:00 PM - Thread Starter
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Totally enthused about this , but have no idea why . I doubt I'll ever need anything remotely close to this scale , and I'm still trying to wrap my head around what you are doing , but it looks kinda mad scientist , so I'm looking forward to what comes next!
The concept of these devices and their abilities is nothing new. RME, Focusrite, Antelope, Motu etc Used in rock concerts, stadiums, big churches, and DAW/recording studios for years...

I'm building this stack:

Attached to my amps and DAC with 9 8-channel XLR to DB-25 custom cables from above.

and depending on how that goes, I may be forced to add an 624 off the AVB switch to gain Thunderbolt/USB 3.0

It would also gain me 2 48V mic inputs (which appeals to me greatly.)
I'd plug two Rode NT1's into that.
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post #20 of 117 Old 06-04-2017, 10:57 PM
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Oh, yeah, that unwraps my mind . I'm reading through their website a little to get a better grip on this so I don't clog up your thread with stupid questions . Well , I may still , but hopefully slightly educated stupid questions .

It was like that when I got here
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post #21 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 02:55 AM
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What are you using to decode the DDTrue-HD and the DTS-MA signals? Do you have a pre/pro in mind for this? Or are you using the all digital JRiver approach? Does the Ai, the Ao, or the 8a/16a function as your DAC?

Also, what player are you using? Oppo? Or are you just using a bluray drive on your PC?
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post #22 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 07:27 AM
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I buy all my snakes from ProAudioLA and would get a 24 channel snake for each 24ao. It makes wire management much easier. They will put three DB25's on it for you. The MOTU's use the Tascam pinout on the DB25 and not the Yamaha pinout.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
What about a Trinnov?
Yep, but only up to 32 channels (for like $40-50k) I'm sure it is a nice unit, and for that price... it better be!
Spent over an hour looking at Trinnov's features at the LA Audio Show this weekend with the Trinnov rep. Retail price for 32 channels is ~$34,000. JRiver's software is more flexible/featured than Trinnov's.

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. . . depending on how that goes, I may be forced to add an 624 off the AVB switch to gain Thunderbolt/USB 3.0
You have Thunderbolt already from the 24ao. Thunderbolt works fine with a Window's PC and the MOTU's. I wish they had put a Thunderbolt 3/USB-C port on the 624. Both my laptop and HTPC have Thunderbolt 3 and I need to use the Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter for the MOTU.

One can use an HTPC for the main source for the MOTU's with digital input. I tested using an OPPO UDP-203 for UHD playback with the analog outs connected directly to the MOTU. I could either play a regular Blu-ray from the HTPC or a UHD Blu-ray from the OPPO. Of course the OPPO only has 7.1 analog so if you wanted Atmos you would need to add in a Yamaha CX-A5100.

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post #23 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
I'm building an analog-XLR based XO/EQ/router. Not a HTPC.

one 24ai, and two 24ao's
24 analog XLR inputs, 48 analog XLR outputs.
With possible future expansion to an unlimited number of channels.

(Internally the XO/EQ uses ASIO PCM running @ -123dbA 24/192, which is just a necessarily-evil to allow for permanent future-proofing.)

You still need a disc player and a processor.

Question: How many processors do you know of that can do 48x48 channels of discrete XO/EQ in multi-way mode or even 256x256 channels?
Answer: Like none.

This can...
Which is exactly what I need.

Can an 8802A do multi-way?
Nope!
What about a Yamaha?
Nope!
What about a XMC-1?
Nope!
What about an Oppo?
Nope!
What about a Trinnov?
Yep, but only up to 32 channels (for like $40-50k) I'm sure it is a nice unit, and for that price... it better be!
For $50k it better come with a "first 100" card to a Tesla Roadster 2.0 or a year's worth of free tip dips at a local casting couch.
72 channels and nothing on....


What this world needs is a good 10 watt loudspeaker.... one that can produce 10 acoustic watts without spontaneous combustion.
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post #24 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

The problem is: every time you upgrade your processor, you lose all of your speaker settings.
This isn't much of a problem if you don't have active multi-way speakers, and only 1 or 2 subs.
But when you have multiple many-way active's and an array of active subs, that is a HUGE pain in the arse.
What? No it's not.

If you have not changed the room, have not changed the speakers and have not changed the location of the MLP and the position of the speakers then a simple pre/pro swap is the easiest thing in the world to change and get right up and running again.

"Lose all your speaker settings" are you serious?

I like how going with a super complicated full-active system like this is the solution to that problem. You're crazy, BTH!




Fully configuring even just a single channel of a full-active main speaker and integrating it fully into the HT system is 10x more complicated than setting up a new receiver or pre/pro.
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post #25 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 10:25 AM
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The Motu units distortion levels are quite excellent. I've tested a few from that family.

That said, I don't exactly see what you're hoping to gain here. It's not like a receiver or pre is doing any active processing in the first place, so that logic seems a bit strange.

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post #26 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 11:25 AM
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The 24Ao is 24 analog outputs only so one needs a 24Ai for 24 inputs. Once he has the inputs, the MOTU units can route a signal into a computer for processing and then back out to another MOTU and then the amps. MOTU's can be aggregated as one unit using AVB up to the maximum channel count allowed by the sample rate.

For example, one could have a Yamaha CX-A5100 for 12 channels of output using Atmos/DTS:X/Auro 3-D. Route into the MOTU > PC > MOTU and back out again for active crossovers for however many channels one wants. The latency is super low. MOTU told me that when routing through their DAW that "the round-trip latency through AudioDesk is currently 4x the project's buffer size, plus the latency of the 16A itself. The round-trip latency of the 16A connected via Thunderbolt is 1.4ms."

Source > MOTU > DSP PC > MULTIPLE MOTU's > Amps > Speakers
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post #27 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 01:30 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Tip24/96 View Post
What are you using to decode the DDTrue-HD and the DTS-MA signals? Do you have a pre/pro in mind for this? Or are you using the all digital JRiver approach? Does the Ai, the Ao, or the 8a/16a function as your DAC?

Also, what player are you using? Oppo? Or are you just using a bluray drive on your PC?
I have an Oppo. But will add a 7703 in time...
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post #28 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 01:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
I buy all my snakes from ProAudioLA and would get a 24 channel snake for each 24ao. It makes wire management much easier. They will put three DB25's on it for you. The MOTU's use the Tascam pinout on the DB25 and not the Yamaha pinout.

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What about a Trinnov?
Yep, but only up to 32 channels (for like $40-50k) I'm sure it is a nice unit, and for that price... it better be!
Spent over an hour looking at Trinnov's features at the LA Audio Show this weekend with the Trinnov rep. Retail price for 32 channels is ~$34,000. JRiver's software is more flexible/featured than Trinnov's.

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
. . . depending on how that goes, I may be forced to add an 624 off the AVB switch to gain Thunderbolt/USB 3.0
You have Thunderbolt already from the 24ao. Thunderbolt works fine with a Window's PC and the MOTU's. I wish they had put a Thunderbolt 3/USB-C port on the 624. Both my laptop and HTPC have Thunderbolt 3 and I need to use the Apple Thunderbolt 3 to Thunderbolt 2 adapter for the MOTU.

One can use an HTPC for the main source for the MOTU's with digital input. I tested using an OPPO UDP-203 for UHD playback with the analog outs connected directly to the MOTU. I could either play a regular Blu-ray from the HTPC or a UHD Blu-ray from the OPPO. Of course the OPPO only has 7.1 analog so if you wanted Atmos you would need to add in a Yamaha CX-A5100.
The 24 doesn't have Thunderbolt unfortunately.
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post #29 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 01:42 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post

The problem is: every time you upgrade your processor, you lose all of your speaker settings.
This isn't much of a problem if you don't have active multi-way speakers, and only 1 or 2 subs.
But when you have multiple many-way active's and an array of active subs, that is a HUGE pain in the arse.
What? No it's not.

If you have not changed the room, have not changed the speakers and have not changed the location of the MLP and the position of the speakers then a simple pre/pro swap is the easiest thing in the world to change and get right up and running again.

"Lose all your speaker settings" are you serious?

I like how going with a super complicated full-active system like this is the solution to that problem. You're crazy, BTH!




Fully configuring even just a single channel of a full-active main speaker and integrating it fully into the HT system is 10x more complicated than setting up a new receiver or pre/pro.
You got me there. I didn't think that reasoning all the way through.
Still going Motu and abandoning the DCX's though
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post #30 of 117 Old 06-05-2017, 01:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by desertdome View Post
The 24Ao is 24 analog outputs only so one needs a 24Ai for 24 inputs. Once he has the inputs, the MOTU units can route a signal into a computer for processing and then back out to another MOTU and then the amps. MOTU's can be aggregated as one unit using AVB up to the maximum channel count allowed by the sample rate.

For example, one could have a Yamaha CX-A5100 for 12 channels of output using Atmos/DTS:X/Auro 3-D. Route into the MOTU &gt; PC &gt; MOTU and back out again for active crossovers for however many channels one wants. The latency is super low. MOTU told me that when routing through their DAW that "the round-trip latency through AudioDesk is currently 4x the project's buffer size, plus the latency of the 16A itself. The round-trip latency of the 16A connected via Thunderbolt is 1.4ms."

Source &gt; MOTU &gt; DSP PC &gt; MULTIPLE MOTU's &gt; Amps &gt; Speakers
Yep.
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