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post #31 of 71 Old 08-01-2017, 07:54 PM - Thread Starter
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post #32 of 71 Old 08-01-2017, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnplayerson View Post
http://www.calculator.net/voltage-dr...s=20&x=60&y=15

lol here everyone can calculate your bs voltage drop issues . enough said lol

like i said, surges look for shortest path to ground.

whole house breaker is the shortest path to ground when installed.

For extra protection a few extra feet of line per breaker is of little issue.
Voltage will not take a single path to ground. By your logic someone can use an extension cord instead of a surge protector. That's absurd. You should learn about ohms law before you ever post again :/

Stop trying to validate this nonsense.
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post #33 of 71 Old 08-01-2017, 10:40 PM
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A surge will take multiple paths, it will prioritize on least resistance but will consume literally everything it can to ground.

The only way to protect against surges is to cut it off completely (breaker) or ground it before any component (surge protector). The only way you'll ground before electronics is with a Varistor (MOV). Extra cabling will only supplement to add fractions of ohm resistance and do essentially zero for protection.

So don't think of it too technically, breakers and surge protectors. Change each out after they expire and don't buy monster or belkin (lol sorry Eng-399). I buy APC or Siemens, but even they have duds.


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post #34 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 12:14 AM
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Also a breaker blowing is not grounded, it's just cutting off the path. The voltage will still go towards what ever path is open to it. Those whole house, or whole breaker surge protectors are awesome as you don't "need" additional surge protection past it.


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post #35 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Voltage will not take a single path to ground. By your logic someone can use an extension cord instead of a surge protector. That's absurd. You should learn about ohms law before you ever post again :/

Stop trying to validate this nonsense.
NO they cant, and the logic you state is your words and your own, not mine. IF you got something to say quit trying to put words in my mouth. Make your own argument.

Protection is just that, protection. It is not a gaurantee that any surge protection system will protect you. Even these fail. None of them will work without a ground to shunt the surge too. The first way the whole house surge works is
exactly as I said, It becomes the shortest route to ground, drawing the surge to the surge protector first. Technically this is why they prefer them installed on the top of the breaker box also................ to help ensure the path goes to
the shortest grounded protected unit.

All lines with longer runs to ground, are never protected automatically, however they are less likely to attract a surge current as lines with shorter runs to ground will attract more surge. So using a few longer lines for ones audio system is simply a good way of adding protection. I NEVER SAID IT WOULD SUFFICE AS A SURGE PROTECTOR.
As usual you like to quote a line or two out of context of a whole post, and make up a bunch of nonsense for a comparison just to be the intentional XXXXX you like to be with me, ever since I twice put egg on your face.

I am not trying to validate anything, I am just stating things as they are. Of course the first thing you do, is take one line out of a whole post prior and argue about your voltage drop issue in using longer lines LOL. Not even arguing about the rest of the post, then later you change your mind and decide to argue more, making up crap I never communicated. Like losing one or two volts is a big issue LOL. Your always looking for some peanut to argue about, and by doing so you think you are some "big man" lol. Mr, know all lol. Everyone must learn from you lol.

If i took lessons from you, I would never be where I am now, doing things I want to do. I would then be here everyday like you trolling over every post, waiting to stick your nose in and argue lol, trying to make myself feel valuable, which is exactly what you do every day here. That and threaten banishment lol.

A Good amplifier requires a adequate power supply, It does not matter what the amplifier is capable of if the power supply will not provide the power required. Most amplifiers have under rated power supplies. It is up to you to make sure you get the ones that are least under rated if at all.

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post #36 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 07:15 AM - Thread Starter
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20 amp surge protector for inuke amps

More pictures


Hope this thread helps show the inside and outside of these inexpensive 20 amp surge protectors. There's a lot different solutions to everyone's needs for protection I feel this worked out great for what I wanted in my room. Thank you @bscool for this link and suggestion I appreciate it! There's no trigger on the back of these to turn on your amps when you first fire all your audio equipment up but as many have already seen there's a thread on how to build something that would work and fix that problem. I think Rob started that thread and showed step by step what to order and how to build it.

All this talk about power I make 36 megawatts of power at work... here's the inside of a jet turbine that makes 7 mega watts each. The exhaust gas from this at over 1,200 degrees gets used the next floor up to power a high pressure boiler "HRSG" (Heat recovery Steam Generator) running at 142 psi. Having duct burners incorporated into this part of the system were able to make 70,000 lbs of steam a hour per unit.
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post #37 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 12:15 PM
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Thanks for the pics eng-399, for a rack mountable 20 amp power distribution unit, this is already at a good price. Plus surge protection? Icing on the cake. I got one coming in tomorrow, should be able to clean up alot of power cables now, and ensure all my amps and AVR are using a shared ground to minimize any ground loop hums.
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post #38 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 12:37 PM
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eng-399 this looks real good in your set up.


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post #39 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 12:39 PM - Thread Starter
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post #40 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 03:51 PM
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This thread was a very enjoyable read. Thanks. I'm currently going back and fourth looking at this problem in my own setup. I'm using 2 15a remote control power strips. They don't trip. But at my weekend gtg, I popped my 20A breaker. Lol. I guess I need another 20A circuit. The real bummer for me is I can't use the 20A PSA power conditioner, power director I bought. It seem to choke power to my 8 Inukes.
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post #41 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 03:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
This thread was a very enjoyable read. Thanks. I'm currently going back and fourth looking at this problem in my own setup. I'm using 2 15a remote control power strips. They don't trip. But at my weekend gtg, I popped my 20A breaker. Lol. I guess I need another 20A circuit. The real bummer for me is I can't use the 20A PSA power conditioner, power director I bought. It seem to choke power to my 8 Inukes.
power conditioners are rubbish.
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post #42 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
This thread was a very enjoyable read. Thanks. I'm currently going back and fourth looking at this problem in my own setup. I'm using 2 15a remote control power strips. They don't trip. But at my weekend gtg, I popped my 20A breaker. Lol. I guess I need another 20A circuit. The real bummer for me is I can't use the 20A PSA power conditioner, power director I bought. It seem to choke power to my 8 Inukes.
power conditioners are rubbish.
But it has an on off switch that works with harmony hub!
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post #43 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
power conditioners are rubbish.


I agree, unless you have very poor voltage regulation.


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post #44 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
Hope this thread helps show the inside and outside of these inexpensive 20 amp surge protectors.
You didn't take the front receptacle off and expose the traces on the PC board where the components are mounted. It would be interesting to see what the weight of the copper and width of the traces on the board are.
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post #45 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
This thread was a very enjoyable read. Thanks. I'm currently going back and fourth looking at this problem in my own setup. I'm using 2 15a remote control power strips. They don't trip. But at my weekend gtg, I popped my 20A breaker. Lol. I guess I need another 20A circuit. The real bummer for me is I can't use the 20A PSA power conditioner, power director I bought. It seem to choke power to my 8 Inukes.
You have 8 Inukes on a 20A circuit? That's 2.5A per amp?
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post #46 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 07:41 PM
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the one i linked seems to have a 10 year warranty, so it would be interesting to see what the coverage terms are. $200 seems like a reasonable expense if it protects all electronic items in the house from high voltage damage, and I wouldn't be disappointed if the unit is destroyed after an 'incident' as long as it protected everything else. perhaps i need to order one for science.

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post #47 of 71 Old 08-02-2017, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FriscoDTM View Post
the one i linked seems to have a 10 year warranty, so it would be interesting to see what the coverage terms are. $200 seems like a reasonable expense if it protects all electronic items in the house from high voltage damage, and I wouldn't be disappointed if the unit is destroyed after an 'incident' as long as it protected everything else. perhaps i need to order one for science.
My understanding is that in an ideal scenario you would have three layers of surge protection.

1. Surge protection at the meter, provided by the power company.
2. A whole panel unit like the Siemens you linked to. You want it to have an audible alarm so you are aware when its sacrificed itself and needs to be replaced.
3. Receptacle level protection, via a power strip/PDU etc.
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post #48 of 71 Old 08-03-2017, 07:30 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by sam_adams View Post
You didn't take the front receptacle off and expose the traces on the PC board where the components are mounted. It would be interesting to see what the weight of the copper and width of the traces on the board are.


Maybe next time these are already hooked up and installed.
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post #49 of 71 Old 08-04-2017, 04:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pradeep2 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
This thread was a very enjoyable read. Thanks. I'm currently going back and fourth looking at this problem in my own setup. I'm using 2 15a remote control power strips. They don't trip. But at my weekend gtg, I popped my 20A breaker. Lol. I guess I need another 20A circuit. The real bummer for me is I can't use the 20A PSA power conditioner, power director I bought. It seem to choke power to my 8 Inukes.
You have 8 Inukes on a 20A circuit? That's 2.5A per amp?
Yes. I only popped the breaker once. And it was at ridiculous levels. I'm sure there's science behind saying I need 4 20A circuits or something like that, but I don't think I'm missing out on anything having only the one. Everything works wonderfully and gets way loud and low end is awesome. My house can't take any more bass.
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post #50 of 71 Old 08-04-2017, 11:24 PM
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I am late to the party. I have not read all the previous post. I have all 6 of my I Nukes directly in the wall outlets. The house or I Nukes will shut down properly if over powered. I gave up on surge protectors for 20 amp circuit a while back since most don't do above 15 amps. In a modern house less than 25 years old, this will work. Of course this depends on the quality of electric services in the area.
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post #51 of 71 Old 08-04-2017, 11:39 PM - Thread Starter
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20 amp surge protector for inuke amps

So far so good with the surge protectors. I pushed the setup today while I had the house to myself and ran the subs 45 db hot and didn't trip the surge protectors so it looks like Im good to go now.
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post #52 of 71 Old 08-05-2017, 02:05 AM
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Hey eng-399 just thought I'd post up what I've got and have good luck with. I ran 4 dedicated 20a circuits and I use Tripp Lite IBAR 12/20 Ultras. I have one per circuit and have never tripped one, but I also don't have powerful enough amps to really push the circuits. I got them all off eBay.

https://www.tripplite.com/isobar-12-...IBAR1220ULTRA/
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post #53 of 71 Old 09-11-2017, 07:54 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
I'm also using one of these whole house protectors since I can't run my speakerpower amps off a normal protector:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01AQAKRSS
I was about to order one of these but I noticed it comes with 14awg wire but recommends 50A breakers? Can you open these up and replace the 14awg with something beefier?
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Originally Posted by eng-399 View Post
So far so good with the surge protectors. I pushed the setup today while I had the house to myself and ran the subs 45 db hot and didn't trip the surge protectors so it looks like Im good to go now.

:-)

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post #55 of 71 Old 09-11-2017, 09:41 PM
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I was about to order one of these but I noticed it comes with 14awg wire but recommends 50A breakers? Can you open these up and replace the 14awg with something beefier?
not sure exactly how these things work, but my guess is the seemingly small wire gauge is sufficient because the extreme current is only for a fraction of a second (on the order of micro-seconds). the Square D by Schneider Electric HEPD80 has 12 gauge and offers 80kA protection. obviously any sustained amount of 80kA would smoke a 12 gauge wire in short order.

some possibly useful information:

provides overview of ul 1449 3rd edition, which is the rating that these things appear to be required to meet in order to be ul listed.
http://static.schneider-electric.us/.../9910-0001.pdf

page 10 has specs for the above listed device
http://download.schneider-electric.c...6671CT9701.pdf

vpr listed in this document:
http://static.schneider-electric.us/...9990-0124B.pdf

lol, they don't make it easy.


and for the eaton:



source:http://www.eaton.com/Eaton/ProductsS...dex.htm#tabs-2

what it all means:

source: https://www.stevejenkins.com/blog/20...ge-protection/

it appears the eaton is the marginally superior device, particularly when connected to the 50amp breaker option.



"there is another..."


this guy is a "series mode" line protector (kind of like the surge x is to type 3 surge protectors, but designed to protect a whole line).






no mov's so nothing to wear out or burst into flames, but a high price (apparently). i have no idea of the practical benefits of series mode protection (as compared with shunt mode) and would be interested to hear if anybody really knows. e.g., in one case, on failure shunt mode sends excess current from live to ground, elevating ground potential dramatically and providing a back door for damaging current into sensitive devices. but many sensitive devices are two-prong double isolated anyways, so does it matter?

all that said, reading the comments on amazon, there is definitely some confusion surrounding these things. with voltage protection of 600v, these may not be providing the kind of protection many folks are looking for. 600v is much higher than a lot of sensitive electronics can withstand, even for a short duration, so best to use a type 3 device (power strip type thing) downstream of these devices where sensitive equipment is installed. interestingly, old school style appliances (washers/dryers/refrigerators etc.) didn't have sensitive electronics as many do today, so the real value of the whole house surge protection device may be to lower down surges in order to all robust components (such as power amps) to survive and to allow type 3 devices to protect sensitive gear.


all that said, in reading around on the topic, it appears that voltage fluctuations from brownouts etc. kill a lot more gear than do kilovolt level surges, with the level of that problem being greater in some parts of the country than in others. in that sense, maybe the voltage regulators aren't all the marketing hype that i took them for.



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post #56 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 09:27 AM
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I was about to order one of these but I noticed it comes with 14awg wire but recommends 50A breakers? Can you open these up and replace the 14awg with something beefier?
no need, the short stranded wire will not provide much resistance.
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post #57 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 11:09 AM
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no need, the short stranded wire will not provide much resistance.
Was the 14awg wire thick enough for the 50A breakers to clamp down on?

I just ordered one so I'll find out soon enough
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post #58 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 12:10 PM
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In the basic research i've done, there are many aspects of electrical issues that need to be addressed.

Surges can come in on 4 paths.
The hot line, neutral and ground line.
As well as the ground surface itself (this one i will ignore).

Most whole house units are mov based, which means they typically offer no protection below 150v per phase.
Additionally their let through is typically 500-700volts which us still enough to kill stuff in your house.

It offers basic one event shielding against the initial blast of a surge. Secondary blasts will come through at full force, and that 700v is still coming through on the first blast.

So stage 2 or 3 devices should still be utilized.

I'd recommend the 20a SurgeX for $106 as secondary protection, it handles 700v surges and has 165v let through for all modes and 105/130v uv/ov protection.

Triplite has medical iso formers that provides additional galvanic isolation and filtering if you really want to go that extra mile. (They also have metal medical strips with filtering and movs).

The $400 SurgeX sa series have 6000v protection if you want to go the extra mile.

For critical loads, there are online ups's from apc and cyberpower with pfc correction, or line interactive units that are "almost" as good.

Obviously amplifiers aren't critical loads.

If you implement all of them then you'll REALLY be protected. But $$$$
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post #59 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 12:45 PM
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Mov-based strips, ups's and whole-house units (which is pretty much 100% of them) are one strike ponies with 700v let-through, many providing minimal or no UV/OV protection, and all of them contaminate ground line or neutral (neutral is often ground too btw).

Only series-mode devices like EP, Torus, and SurgeX etc are typically rated for 1000+ strikes at 6kV, and don't contaminate downstream above nominal.

Often movs explode and/or catch on fire when they die, or so i've been told!

So: Ye be warned.

Now whether or not your device can handle ov/uv and 700v let-through on its own, with no stage 3 protection, is another topic on its own.

I'd image that many stand-alone voltage stabilizer products themselves would even struggle with 700v, god only knows without tests!
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post #60 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 12:47 PM
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From the videos i've seen, i'd probably trust triplite before i'd trust apc. But that's just my opinion...
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