20 amp surge protector for inuke amps - Page 3 - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #61 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 01:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Mov-based strips, ups's and whole-house units (which is pretty much 100% of them) are one strike ponies with 700v let-through, many providing minimal or no UV/OV protection, and all of them contaminate ground line or neutral (neutral is often ground too btw).

Only series-mode devices like EP, Torus, and SurgeX etc are typically rated for 1000+ strikes at 6kV, and don't contaminate downstream above nominal.

Often movs explode and/or catch on fire when they die, or so i've been told!

So: Ye be warned.

Now whether or not your device can handle ov/uv and 700v let-through on its own, with no stage 3 protection, is another topic on its own.

I'd image that many stand-alone voltage stabilizer products themselves would even struggle with 700v, god only knows without tests!

*citation needed
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post #62 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 04:48 PM
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I also posted in BassThatHZ's other thread on the topic that in my internship with Cutler Hammer testing Vacuum Arrestors we protected our test equipment with MOV's. When I asked why (I had read all these bad things too) I was told that you need MOV's in addition to the other approaches like series mode because that act much more quickly. They also told me (and we learned) that spikes from lightning sufficient to jump a MOV that killed itself would also destroy everything but the largest vacuum arrestors. What I was taught in this job was that MOV's offer the best protection against small lightning strikes.

I've noticed a lot of modern electronics have MOV's in the power supply. Many provide similar protection to a good surge protector.


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post #63 of 71 Old 09-12-2017, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
*citation needed
For which one?

For fire departments identifying MOV devices as the cause of recent deaths?
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...ecoming-doctor

Or... for ZeroSuge/SurgeX devices successfully passing UL's certification of 1000+ surges @ 6kV/3kA without incurring any damage for both the SPD and downstream devices?
http://zerosurge.com/attachments/Equ...rticle_02c.pdf

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post #64 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
For which one?

For fire departments identifying MOV devices as the cause of recent deaths?
https://www.dnainfo.com/new-york/201...ecoming-doctor



Quote:
The fire was caused by an overloaded power strip under furniture in a first-floor apartment, the FDNY said.
What does this have to do with a MOV device?
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post #65 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 01:55 PM
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Just go to google news and type "power strip causes fire". You'll have lots of articles.

This one states that millions of surge protector have been recalled from just one oem in just the last few years alone;
And that the cause of this one wasn't an overload.
http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-d..._by_fault.html

That's because when the mcov-rating is exceeded or degardes from age the mov bursts into flames, at least some of the time...

Newer devices have thermal trips and overcurrent protection that help prevent it (but not cure the root cause).
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post #66 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 01:58 PM
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Installed the Eaton last night. Zero change in the audible noise floor of the HT.
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post #67 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
Installed the Eaton last night. Zero change in the audible noise floor of the HT.

You weren't expecting one, were you?
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post #68 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 04:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zeus33 View Post
You weren't expecting one, were you?
No. My comment was in response to post #59 where it was said that all MOV-based protection devices contaminate the ground line.
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post #69 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 06:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lukeamdman View Post
No. My comment was in response to post #59 where it was said that all MOV-based protection devices contaminate the ground line.
Sorry for the confusion, it only diverts energy to ground when it is protecting against a surge. Which is often just shortly after it dies, assuming the joule rating, voltage rating or current rating was exceeded (which is likely the case in the event of a real surge).

As the name implies, it is a variable resistor, so at low frequencies and low voltages it doesn't do much (in parallel to the load I might add), and at high frequencies and high voltage it converts the excess power into heat and/or ground line noise if/when it enters into shunt mode. (That's my understanding of it at least...)

Normally the hot wire is swinging from 0 to 170v @ 60hz, and the ground line is at near-zero volts and the neutral is also at near-zero volts... as it should be.
Problems only occur when it isn't near-zero or the hot is way higher than 120v rms (ignoring BO/UV for a moment.)

The only way to tell if your HT is experiencing surges is to connect a power-quality analyzer to your wires.
The SurgeX SCP, Envision and Elite have power-quality analyzers built-in and can be connected to a PC for the purpose of monitoring, which is a handy feature. The latter two have basically a built-in o-scope + more.
Here is the LCD screen of the SCP in my cubicle at work. It counts and timestamps the OV/UV/BO/Surge events, similar to a UPS but WAY more sensitive, down to the microsecond level.

Meanwhile the APC 650 I have in my cubicle didn't record any event at all.
In many cases I've been in the room watching the lights dim and the APC and CyberPower units record no events.
No events my rear.

Whole-house mov's only protect against really high voltage surges. They don't protect against brief or sustained OV/UV/BO events. Only the beefier type-3's like TrippLite, APC, Cyberpower or SurgeX etc etc do that. The more expensive units having higher sensitivities and tighter cut-off protections.
(Or in the case of a double online-UPS, it is always on battery, regardless of what the line is doing.)

Ideally we would all have type 1's, 2's and 3's in place. But that's $$$ or $$$$

There does exist 30A type-3 SPD's, but they often cost as much as a FP14k clone... if not more!
Type 1's and 2's don't (usually) have this current restriction because they are in parallel with the load, so the load could be the full 200a or 400a or xyz.
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Last edited by BassThatHz; 09-13-2017 at 06:45 PM.
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post #70 of 71 Old 09-13-2017, 09:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Just go to google news and type "power strip causes fire". You'll have lots of articles.

This one states that millions of surge protector have been recalled from just one oem in just the last few years alone;
And that the cause of this one wasn't an overload.
http://www.nj.com/hunterdon-county-d..._by_fault.html

That's because when the mcov-rating is exceeded or degardes from age the mov bursts into flames, at least some of the time...

Newer devices have thermal trips and overcurrent protection that help prevent it (but not cure the root cause).
"It was faulty."

This is not typical behavior. You seem to be on some crusade against mov based devices and spreading a good bit of misinformation. Yes, they have a limited lifespan, no using a mov based device is not going to cause your house to burn down.
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post #71 of 71 Old 09-14-2017, 12:55 AM
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"New to UL 1449 3rd Edition is the nominal discharge current test, commonly referred to as I(n) The results of this test are required to be placed on the label of the SPD."

"The I(n) value claimed on any UL 1449 3rd Edition SPD confirms that the SPD has been subjected to 15 consecutive impulses at the specified I(n) value."

source is same as above as listed right under "overview of ul 1449 3rd edition"


I(n) for the devices up in my earlier post are 10k and 20k amps.


at least in the square d linked above, the mov are individually fused with both thermal and overcurrent fusing. i'm out of my knowledge area on this one, but such fusing suggests to me the mov are actually not supposed to burn up in the event of an overcurrent. i think in this context "sacrificial" means that with each overage, the device wears down and eventually wears out and that is what the indicator light is supposed to be indicating (protection is good or has worn out).

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