Horn Dampening Ay one do this ? - AVS Forum | Home Theater Discussions And Reviews
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post #1 of 61 Old 08-17-2017, 05:45 PM - Thread Starter
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Horn Dampening Ay one do this ?

I created a new youtube video on how to dampen you're horns. Thought it would be a good video, You can "definitely" hear the difference with and with out the "elephant-Poop"


Shed some input if you want.

Next video will be up in a few days from the measurements.
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post #2 of 61 Old 08-17-2017, 05:56 PM
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good vid thanks for posting but id want to see how it impacts the measurement.

thanks

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post #3 of 61 Old 08-17-2017, 05:57 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by 1201 View Post
good vid thanks for posting but id want to see how it impacts the measurement.

thanks
Subscribe to my channel video should be up in a few days
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post #4 of 61 Old 08-17-2017, 06:54 PM
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I am also very interested in this. Is it a tonal difference (ie what you hear), is it a measurable difference or is it both? It would be nice to hear a song on it if it is a tonal difference.
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post #5 of 61 Old 08-17-2017, 10:28 PM
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Not to take sway from your testing, but I did a similar experiment with SEOS12 waveguides, no difference in measured response or distortion. As for thinner plastic or metal horns, I could definitely see it being beneficial.

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post #6 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 02:55 AM
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Horns don't get tapped on when playing music The last time I tested this it didn't make a difference in measurements. That said, it was with a JBL horn and they're generally pretty beefy.
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post #7 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 08:04 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post
Not to take sway from your testing, but I did a similar experiment with SEOS12 waveguides, no difference in measured response or distortion. As for thinner plastic or metal horns, I could definitely see it being beneficial.

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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Horns don't get tapped on when playing music The last time I tested this it didn't make a difference in measurements. That said, it was with a JBL horn and they're generally pretty beefy.
I know horn's don't get tapped on during music, the point of the taping was to show that they resonate, just like how they would when certain frequency play "through" or around them.



It's like putting insulation in your walls, it's dampening the walls and absorbing the resonate frequency.
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post #8 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 09:07 AM
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I recently did the horn and the whole front plastic section of my Studio 590 using dynamat type damper https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1 on the back of the plastic fronts and horns. I can't say I can hear any difference while listening to music, I can hear a difference hitting my finger nail on the enclosure but that is probably as valid of a test as knocking on a speaker enclosure to judge how well it is made and braced, which I don't think tells you much when it comes to actual speaker performance and enclosure.

I still haven't done the other main speaker so I could measure them to see if there is a difference but I don't there is going to be one so I haven't been motivated to do the testing with REW. Probably as much or more of a variance between the individual drivers as what the dampening did.

Edit. I didn't really plan on doing any before and after measurements but I just took some measurements after posting this and do see quite a bit of difference between the two speakers. But I don't know they could have measured quite different out of the box. I had only measured them before at the MLP. These measurements I did just now were with the microphone 36" away from the speaker and 33" up from the ground.

I do not have enough room to get them away from any walls or boundaries so I just put tape on the floor where each speaker was in its L& R location and then took a measurement of each speaker and then switched their locations and redid the measurements. I know it is probably not the correct way to do this but is it how I did it I also forgot to switch the calibration file from the 90 degrees to the on axis file so the top end is around 6dB hot.

I think it still is valid for showing the difference between the two speakers. Maybe after I am finished with putting the dynamat on the untreated speaker I will remeasure and see if it changes it any. I am just posting 1 graph of the averages and purple is treated and green stock.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Average between untreated vs treated.jpg (117.5 KB, 46 views)

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post #9 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 11:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
I know horn's don't get tapped on during music, the point of the taping was to show that they resonate, just like how they would when certain frequency play "through" or around them.



It's like putting insulation in your walls, it's dampening the walls and absorbing the resonate frequency.
easy test. keep everything in exactly the same position and measure before and after.
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post #10 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 12:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Face2 View Post
Not to take sway from your testing, but I did a similar experiment with SEOS12 waveguides, no difference in measured response or distortion. As for thinner plastic or metal horns, I could definitely see it being beneficial.

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Interesting to see measurements for this. Like Face2 said above, I think this would have a lot more impact on thinner plastic horns that it would on beefier models like the SEOS, but I had the same thoughts as you and put some Dynamat on there anyway, just because I had it on hand.



I didn't measure anything, but figured it was something I could do while they were open that MIGHT have a positive impact, and couldn't really hurt. (SEOS-15 pictured, by the way).

Edit: Not to be nitpicky, I'm actually wondering... is the correct term "damping" or "dampening"? I thought it was the former, but I'm no expert.
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post #11 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 01:59 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
easy test. keep everything in exactly the same position and measure before and after.
That's exactly what im going to do. Making the jig, this weekend.
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post #12 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
That's exactly what im going to do. Making the jig, this weekend.
Please share the mdats from before/after measurements
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post #13 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 02:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dashpuppy View Post
I know horn's don't get tapped on during music, the point of the taping was to show that they resonate, just like how they would when certain frequency play "through" or around them.



It's like putting insulation in your walls, it's dampening the walls and absorbing the resonate frequency.
Your theory may have some validity, if the horn were freestanding without a compression driver bolted or screwed to it, nor attached to a baffle, hanging on a piece of fishing line.

Once screwed to a baffle, with a compression driver on the back, the resonant frequency will change.
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post #14 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 02:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post
Your theory may have some validity, if the horn were freestanding without a compression driver bolted or screwed to it, nor attached to a baffle, hanging on a piece of fishing line.

Once screwed to a baffle, with a compression driver on the back, the resonant frequency will change.
You think ? However, screwing it into a baffle still won't take the resonating plastic away in the center..

I'll also prove this in the next video.
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post #15 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 07:05 PM
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Well, it did not make a difference in my case. Good or bad I cannot hear a difference so it is staying on. The variation between the 2 speaker is what was showing up in the measurements.

Edit. Add pics of the horn almost finished, woofer front baffle and the CD enclosure that separates the compression driver from the 8" woofers. I put a layer of the dynamat knock off on all of them.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg IMAG00096.jpg (1.81 MB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG00100.jpg (1.16 MB, 30 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG00103.jpg (1.74 MB, 25 views)
File Type: jpg IMAG00104.jpg (1.58 MB, 22 views)
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post #16 of 61 Old 08-18-2017, 07:45 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Well, it actually does make a difference here is the after. And both speakers do measure the same also. Not sure it would be considered good. It looks it knocks off the high-end and creates more of a notch around 10,500khz applying the damping. Good or bad I cannot hear a difference so it is staying on.

Edit. Add pics of the horn almost finished, woofer front baffle and the CD enclosure that separates the compression driver from the 8" woofers. I put a layer of the dynamat knock off on all of them.
Looks like you measured from a non identical position or with something changed. a resonance shouldn't affect that large of a frequency range.
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post #17 of 61 Old 08-20-2017, 01:32 PM
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So you moved the mic AND use ungated measurements? Totally useless data. Not being a d@#$, just making sure you know and don't make any decisions based on it.
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post #18 of 61 Old 08-20-2017, 04:29 PM
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Like I said, don't take it personal. What is your gate length? What is the max gate before the first boundary reflection?
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post #19 of 61 Old 08-20-2017, 06:08 PM
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moving even a millimeter will give you a different response. Needs to be exact.
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post #20 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by augerpro View Post
Like I said, don't take it personal. What is your gate length? What is the max gate before the first boundary reflection?
I believe in the last graph I posted I used 2.8ms. I'll just post the mdat so who ever can look at it. I know it was not the optimal and most accurate way to do it but I thought it gave pretty consistent results for what I wanted to see.

I didn't indent to post any measurements either but the post came up asking if anyone had done it and I figured I would take some quick measurements. I wouldn't build a speaker design taking measurements like this

I may not be clear either in my writing this is two separate speakers(my left and right mains). I had already finished 1 speaker(right main) and had not measured it. I decided to take a measurement after seeing this post. First I measured the finished speaker and then I measured the unfinished speaker in the same location using tape to mark the speaker's placement. Then I applied dyanamat to the unfished speaker and took a measurement with it in that same location.

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post #21 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I believe in the last graph I posted I used 2.8ms. I'll just post the mdat so who ever can look at it. I know it was not the optimal and most accurate way to do it but I thought it gave pretty consistent results for what I wanted to see.

I didn't indent to post any measurements either but the post came up asking if anyone had done it and I figured I would take some quick measurements. I wouldn't build a speaker design taking measurements like this

I may not be clear either in my writing this is two separate speakers(my left and right mains). I had already finished 1 speaker(right main) and had not measured it. I decided to take a measurement after seeing this post. First I measured the finished speaker and then I measured the unfinished speaker in the same location using tape to mark the speaker's placement. Then I applied dyanamat to the unfished speaker and took a measurement with it in that same location.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Alekwwtstb8wj-ISxAXQ_CEj7Qscxg
These measurements are completely useless. Not trying to be offensive, but as you said, you measured two different drivers at two different locations. the location needs to be exact, like in a jig exact.
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post #22 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 12:45 PM
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He said he measured the unfinished speaker with and without dynamat and a mm wouldn't make a significant difference IMO.

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post #23 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 01:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
These measurements are completely useless. Not trying to be offensive, but as you said, you measured two different drivers at two different locations. the location needs to be exact, like in a jig exact.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tuxedocivic View Post
He said he measured the unfinished speaker with and without dynamat and a mm wouldn't make a significant difference IMO.

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Yeah, they were measured from the same location just like I saw you do in your videos tux using the ladder and you line then up using a tape measure and your "ladder" would have been my tape marks on the floor where I placed the speaker.

I think there is confusion because in an earlier post I had measure both speakers in 2 separate locations so 4 measurements total for the first initial measurements to verify consistency but took those out because it just added more confusion.

Anyway, this isn't my thread and I don't want to take it over with my measurements and posts. Each can decide for themselves to decide if they measurements are of any use or totally worthless. I did my best at the time I know next time to build a jig if I want to post measurements like this

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post #24 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 01:38 PM
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Yeah, they were measured from the same location just like I saw you do in your videos tux using the ladder and you line then up using a tape measure and your "ladder" would have been my tape marks on the floor where I placed the speaker.

I think there is confusion because in an earlier post I had measure both speakers in 2 separate locations so 4 measurements total for the first initial measurements to verify consistency but took those out because it just added more confusion.
Yeah, got caught up when I just read "I measured the finished speaker and then I measured the unfinished speaker in the same location "

I'll give the measurements a lookover.
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post #25 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 01:56 PM
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Yeah, they were measured from the same location just like I saw you do in your videos tux using the ladder and you line then up using a tape measure and your "ladder" would have been my tape marks on the floor where I placed the speaker.

I think there is confusion because in an earlier post I had measure both speakers in 2 separate locations so 4 measurements total for the first initial measurements to verify consistency but took those out because it just added more confusion.

Anyway, this isn't my thread and I don't want to take it over with my measurements and posts. Each can decide for themselves to decide if they measurements are of any use or totally worthless. I did my best at the time I know next time to build a jig if I want to post measurements like this
So which is which in the mdat? It's not clear.

I see
original R dampened 8/18 12:48
OrigLeftPostTreat 8/18 12:49
Swithced undamped to r 8/19 9:35

"origleftposttreat" and "original r dampened" appear to be taken at very close to the same position and have similar response, the "switched undamped to r" appears to be taken at a different location
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post #26 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 02:05 PM
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Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
So which is which in the mdat? It's not clear.

I see
original R dampened 8/18 12:48
OrigLeftPostTreat 8/18 12:49
Swithced undamped to r 8/19 9:35

"origleftposttreat" and "original r dampened" appear to be taken at very close to the same position and have similar response, the "switched undamped to r" appears to be taken at a different location
original R dampened 8/18 12:48 this was my RIGHT speaker that I had already applied dyamant
OrigLeftPostTreat 8/18 12:49 This was my LEFT speaker that I had not treated yet and I moved it to the RIGHT speaker location where I had measured them all.
Swithced undamped to r 8/19 9:35 This is the LEFT main after applying dynamat measured at the RIGHT speaker location

They were all taken at the same location. I know the OrigLeftPostTreat showed a different first reflection but they were in the same location as the other two.

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post #27 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
original R dampened 8/18 12:48 this was my RIGHT speaker that I had already applied dyamant
OrigLeftPostTreat 8/18 12:49 This was my LEFT speaker that I had not treated yet and I moved it to the RIGHT speaker location where I had measured them all.
Swithced undamped to r 8/19 9:35 This is the LEFT main after applying dynamat measured at the RIGHT speaker location

They were all taken at the same location. I know the OrigLeftPostTreat showed a different first reflection but they were in the same location as the other two.
Sorry, got the timestamps messed up, I'll assume your order is correct but the filenames weren't.

Code:
Original R dampened           8/18 12:48 PM        R TREATED
Swithced undamped to r        8/18 12:49 PM        L UNTREATED
OrigLeftPostTreat             8/19 9:35 AM         L TREATED
Expanding your windowing shows these were not taken with the mic at the same position.

I've renamed your graphs as indicated

These are with 125 left 500 right 1/48 octave width FDW

Left and Right after treatment are in the same position it seems, or quite close. They measure similarly.


Untreated left does not match that.
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post #28 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 02:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by notnyt View Post
Sorry, got the timestamps messed up, I'll assume your order is correct but the filenames weren't.

Code:
Original R dampened           8/18 12:48 PM        R TREATED
Swithced undamped to r        8/18 12:49 PM        L UNTREATED
OrigLeftPostTreat             8/19 9:35 AM         L TREATED
Expanding your windowing shows these were not taken with the mic at the same position.

I've renamed your graphs as indicated

These are with 125 left 500 right 1/48 octave width FDW

Left and Right after treatment are in the same position it seems, or quite close. They measure similarly.

Untreated left does not match that.
Edit, I don't think I KNOW I DID Crap I think I might have labeled them wrong and attached the wrong one? Argh lol. Do you want to look at all the files if I post the mdat and check them out? I think it will make more sense if you do. I am going to look at them again and see if I can make sense out of them

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post #29 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 02:48 PM
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Originally Posted by bscool View Post
Crap I think I might have labeled them wrong and attached the wrong one? Argh lol. Do you want to look at all the files if I post the mdat and check them out? I think it will make more sense if you do. I am going to look at them again and see if I can make sense out of them
If you want I can check it out later
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post #30 of 61 Old 08-23-2017, 08:09 PM
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Thanks, I think these 3 are the correct ones as the impulse response first reflection lines up much closer and the FR is also much closer. I didn't include 5 or 7 files as I figured it might be even more confusing but I can include them if you want. I think these 3 will make sense now.

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Alekwwtstb8wj-IVKgu-ewP-WdQK7A

Edit change scale to match notnyts. My head hurts
Interesting results. There's definitely increased hf rolloff now. Was the CD removed from the horn? I don't see much difference in the time domain, but it's hard to tell since the noise floor was louder in one of em and the measurement's wasn't too far above it. I'd pick the before treatment plot if I had to choose.

edit: removed due to bad datas

Last edited by notnyt; 08-24-2017 at 12:31 PM.
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