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post #61 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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That's funny I found YOUR video! I can understand it regardless of the SQ issues but I had to play it a couple times and take a guess into google. Haha I just realized that it's the same screen name as on here, didn't even bother to look before that's why I said some guy!

Yea when I started there was some stuff like WinISD but I was also not in a position nor cared to build a bunch as a continuous hobby. Now I'm at a point in my life where getting some testing equipment isn't a big deal and I have the tools to easily build most things and buying materials isn't such a financial burden. It's more about spending money on the speakers wisely and then only worrying about the labor involved with building but I've always desired the ability to simulate things within a tight error. I enjoyed that in physics being able to take the theory, test the fundamentals even if we were made aware of more complex factors and then deriving our error and postulating where the different amounts of error came from.

I'm guessing the inductance losses have something to do with something like an electrical standing wave at certain frequencies inside the coils? Probably more complicated than just looking at the coil itself and has something to do with the properties of the magnet and how it reacts with the magnetic field of the coil but I'm just guessing.
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post #62 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 05:42 PM - Thread Starter
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BTW nice background
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post #63 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 06:31 PM
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That's funny I found YOUR video! I can understand it regardless of the SQ issues but I had to play it a couple times and take a guess into google. Haha I just realized that it's the same screen name as on here, didn't even bother to look before that's why I said some guy!
Not a coincidence, there were no video tutorials for Hornresp, that's why I did one. It's probably the only one to be found - until I delete it. Not even sure if I remember how to get back into that account though.

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Yea when I started there was some stuff like WinISD but I was also not in a position nor cared to build a bunch as a continuous hobby. Now I'm at a point in my life where getting some testing equipment isn't a big deal and I have the tools to easily build most things and buying materials isn't such a financial burden. It's more about spending money on the speakers wisely and then only worrying about the labor involved with building but I've always desired the ability to simulate things within a tight error. I enjoyed that in physics being able to take the theory, test the fundamentals even if we were made aware of more complex factors and then deriving our error and postulating where the different amounts of error came from.

I'm guessing the inductance losses have something to do with something like an electrical standing wave at certain frequencies inside the coils? Probably more complicated than just looking at the coil itself and has something to do with the properties of the magnet and how it reacts with the magnetic field of the coil but I'm just guessing.
Somebody told me once what causes the lossy inductance losses - maybe eddy currents or something? I can't remember and don't really care. The issue mainly affects long stroke drivers though, this is why big sub drivers don't measure as they sim. There are papers by Marshal Leach and maybe even Wright on lossy inductance, you can look those up if you like. Both those guys figured out how to quantify the issue and make complex inductance t/s specs. The problem is that no simulator that I use will accept these parameters and no manufacturer spec sheet will list them. So you have to measure them yourself and use Unibox, which isn't much good.

I noticed a few years ago that sims didn't match measurements with this type of driver so I figured out how to change the simulator to make it more accurate (with a bit of help from some friends). It's actually just a small adjustment that can be used in any simulator but I have a fairly good working relationship with the author of Hornresp and he incorporated my adjustment right into the simulator. It's not a perfect method but it's a lot better than just ignoring the issue. If you want to know more, here's a link to the paper I wrote on the issue, the download link is at the bottom of the page. https://sites.google.com/site/amateu...and-adjustment

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BTW nice background
Yeah, I think she's a porn star, soft core at least, maybe hardcore, not sure, don't remember her name. Ariel maybe? But she's pretty and she's been on my desktop for a few years now. It's probably time for a change. Maybe this lovely lady next? But a better screenshot than this one.



I'm sure I'll fall in love with someone else next week but for now she's the perfect mix of insanely pretty and bat**** crazy. The guy in this video is an idiot but she makes up for it. Warning - bad words ahead, not audio related, and this probably isn't anyone's sense of humor but so what, I like her.
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post #64 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 07:00 PM
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Keep it simple.......


Best advice I got when doing this very same thing,........do not over think it, you can sim everything and get lost in the negligible details of minutia.


SI HT-18, sealed...approx. 7ft3, will take all rated 600 watts with no filters other than the AVR`s LFE setting.


200 bucks for a completed unit.........add more units until satisfied, biggest possible bang per dollar.


Get a cheap inuke of whatever power times however many subs you think you will need............preferably with DSP.


A inuke 6000dsp should run 4 of these no problem.

Mine is 20x20x38, one sheet of mdf per box.........
Canadian Bronco likes this.

Link to budget Home Theater build

http://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-ded...i-version.html
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post #65 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 07:26 PM - Thread Starter
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WTF is that?!!! That's ridiculous, he's being so emo and she's just off in lala land . Oh, they're a band, never heard of them.

Unretarded - I hear ya and I may go sealed with that 18 but I'm not sure yet. Accurate simulations is something I've wanted for a while no different than I design everything in CAD before I build it whether that's a speaker box, piece of furniture or home construction.
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post #66 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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So I'm looking through hornresp and I've noticed that the group delay and excursion in a simple sealed box level out at the low end where as WinISD just shoots up. Also noticed hornresp is about 1db louder and excursion is about .5mm more. I'm going to look for a guide to get into the details of the program more but I noticed it has an option for ABC boxes and noticed this version of WinISD does as well!
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post #67 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 09:32 PM
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WTF is that?!!! That's ridiculous, he's being so emo and she's just off in lala land . Oh, they're a band, never heard of them.
He's an idiot but he's got some people that matter convinced he's a master of millenial marketing. The only thing he's actually good at is picking up extremely good looking and talented girlfriends and getting them to do whatever he wants them to. Here's his new girlfriend. And what do you know, he's got her doing the same thing he had his old girlfriend doing. Acting completely nuts and much younger than she really is.


She is shockingly pretty though, which is why people watch his videos, not because he's good at anything.



She's actually a very talented musician but you'd never know it because he's got her acting like a naive young robot.

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So I'm looking through hornresp and I've noticed that the group delay and excursion in a simple sealed box level out at the low end where as WinISD just shoots up. Also noticed hornresp is about 1db louder and excursion is about .5mm more. I'm going to look for a guide to get into the details of the program more but I noticed it has an option for ABC boxes and noticed this version of WinISD does as well!
There are a few tutorials (text based) for hornresp but none that were done recently. Hornresp is updated so often that the tutorials are often out of date even shortly after they are released. No kidding - hornresp has probably had at least 5 dozen updates with new and improved features since the latest tutorial was put out. New features and improvements come out almost weekly.

I can help with just about anything Hornresp related except for the complex bandpass boxes - like I said I don't like them so I've never simulated them. I mostly stick with sealed, ported, tl (all kinds), tapped horn or front loaded horn. If you have any questions just ask.
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post #68 of 230 Old 09-10-2017, 11:06 PM - Thread Starter
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I had to stop that video mid way, pretty or not I can't stand when people act/talk like that. Marketing to millenials is like laser pointers to cats except they have an even shorter attention spans. I bet both those chicks though are way more attractive just being normal.

Is there a way in HR to specify the scale or just the 2 options for scale? For doing ported do I use the Vtc and Atc for volume and cross sectional area then derive length? Any quick pointers for designing ported in HR?

What is the Qa, Ql, Qp and Qicl? The first 3 show up in WinISD for ported and that 4th one shows up in ABC.

Edit I got the basics for ported and realize I got the 2 parameters mixed up with the ones I mentioned. What are those for Vtc and Atc? Is that to specifically set driver size to figure out how much volume to take away from box volume?

Also is it possible to run multiple sims side by side like WinISD? Or even multiple instances of the program? It won't let me open multiple instances off the single file location but I haven't tried making multiple file locations.

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post #69 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 06:50 AM
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Is there a way in HR to specify the scale or just the 2 options for scale? For doing ported do I use the Vtc and Atc for volume and cross sectional area then derive length? Any quick pointers for designing ported in HR?
Horizontal (frequency) scale? There's just the two options. A couple of weeks ago there was only one option.

Hover over the input boxes and look at the bottom of the input window, it will show a description of what the box is and what it's for. Or look in the help file.
In this case, Vtc is volume of the throat chamber and Atc is area of the throat chamber.
Ported boxes can use either the rear chamber (Vrc and Lrc) to define the chamber or they can use a throat chamber instead (Vtc, Atc).
If using a rear chamber the port is defined using Ap, Lpt (area and length of port), if using a throat chamber the port is described using the segments (S1, S2, L12, etc).
Using a throat chamber as the ported box chamber allows you to use different shapes of port, for example flared ports.
Double clicking most input boxes will initiate a wizard that will help you fill in that box.

If you don't understand any of this just ask. The more specific the question the more likely I'll be able to help.

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What is the Qa, Ql, Qp and Qicl? The first 3 show up in WinISD for ported and that 4th one shows up in ABC.
All those Qs are loss factors for the box, the port, etc, you can look up what they are and what you should set them at. Most other simulators assume no internal losses, this is just one of many reasons WinISD sims won't match sims from other simulators.

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Edit I got the basics for ported and realize I got the 2 parameters mixed up with the ones I mentioned. What are those for Vtc and Atc? Is that to specifically set driver size to figure out how much volume to take away from box volume?

Also is it possible to run multiple sims side by side like WinISD? Or even multiple instances of the program? It won't let me open multiple instances off the single file location but I haven't tried making multiple file locations.
I already talked about Vtc and Atc. I answered a lot of questions with pictures about how to sims sealed, ported and tl boxes but I can't find the thread now. Maybe later.

Hornresp can overlay a current sim and a single captured sim, like I showed in the sim pics earlier.

But yes, you can run multiple instances of the program, I've run as many as 4 at a time side by side but there's no limit to how many you can run. You can likely put them all in the same folder too, just give each separate copy of the program it's own folder and unique name and you should be good to go.

Most of the time you won't need multiple instances - the Loudspeaker Wizard allows instantaneous changes so you can run through multiple design changes and watch how it affects the situation in real time.

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post #70 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 02:12 PM - Thread Starter
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3rd times a charm, my reply's keep getting an expired token error.

I'll check the help file, never bothered in WinISD because it's not the greatest and I've been using it for so long. It's definitely no help for their newer versions which is why I asked about the Q parameters; those are in the 0.7.0.950 build.

Hopefully I'll get a handle on hornresp fast so I can really start playing around; it has so many more design types!
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post #71 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 02:13 PM - Thread Starter
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Would be nice if the help file allowed you to use the scroll wheel to scroll
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post #72 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 02:18 PM - Thread Starter
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So wrt 'space' I get the 4pi, 2pi etc except 1/8th space. 4pi is middle of no where, 2pi is against a floor/wall but centered, 1pi is in a corner of 2 walls and a floor so is 8th space (.5pi) in a corner of 2 walls sandwiched between the floor and ceiling? Also I'm assuming these values are specific options as opposed to a complete user entered value like 1.3pi, correct?
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post #73 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 02:22 PM - Thread Starter
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Oops I got it, 4pi is elevated then everything else I said is off by 1 boundary, got it now.
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post #74 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 02:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I wonder why someone hasn't made a plugin or whatever to tie something like hornresp into something like sketchup. You could model the box, room, etc.
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post #75 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 04:06 PM - Thread Starter
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Looking through a guide that's from 2010 it's saying you can only model 1 port and that the resonance peaks are a bit more than they would be because it assumes perfectly solid materials. While I can appreciate the complexity that this program is going into I'm starting to think that if I'm going to take the time to learn a new program with the goal being to be more comprehensive, is there a program that is? Something where I can input material density, multiple ports, positions of the speaker and ports and box shape?
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post #76 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 04:50 PM
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I wonder why someone hasn't made a plugin or whatever to tie something like hornresp into something like sketchup. You could model the box, room, etc.
Features like a visual/image input would be nice but Hornresp can't simulate the room and never will be able to.

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Looking through a guide that's from 2010 it's saying you can only model 1 port and that the resonance peaks are a bit more than they would be because it assumes perfectly solid materials. While I can appreciate the complexity that this program is going into I'm starting to think that if I'm going to take the time to learn a new program with the goal being to be more comprehensive, is there a program that is? Something where I can input material density, multiple ports, positions of the speaker and ports and box shape?
Yes, only 1 port.
Yes, it assumes the enclosure is made of infinitely rigid material (this is what the Ql, Qa, Qp would be for if Hornresp bothered with that stuff). This is why I said resonances that are very narrow won't show up at all and you can kinda mentally round off the peaks of the resonances to estimate what it will look like in real life. If you do that you don't need to simulate material density.
Yes Hornresp does have some significant limitations, that's why I use 3 other programs as well.

Sounds like what you are looking for is ABEC3. Or some type of industry professional software. You'll need a good chunk of change to afford to buy the program and then a year or two of studying before you can learn enough to start using it.

Or if you want to keep it free of charge, in the same family is Akabak but it's 20 years old now. I use Akabak. It's great but it has a couple of limitations too, although not many. It will do material density (I'm pretty sure), and all the other things you listed as well as a lot more. But it's completely script based and won't show a schematic of what you are doing so you have to be really sure of your work. I use Hornresp in conjunction with Akabak, I start a sim in Hornresp and when it gets too complicated to complete in Hornresp I export the sim as a file of the type Akabak script, import that into Akabak and continue working on it in Akabak. Akabak has a steep learning curve but I was able to learn to use it in about 2 hours due to my previous experience with other simulators and a really great tutorial. I only use basic features though, I have no need for fancy stuff like material density.

On the other hand, TL.app will do everything you asked for except material density and it also won't do dual drivers at different locations or tapped horns. (The tapped horn feature is broken.) I use TL.app as well but the author no longer hosts or supports it (and it was a bit buggy anyway). It's super easy to use though. While it won't do material density it will allow stuffing in any segment and it does offer a few good features that Hornresp doesn't, like offering multiple ports wherever you want them. It will allow series and branched elements but no parallel elements, so it's definitely not as fully featured as Akabak. Even though the author doesn't host or support it anymore it is apparently still available for download here - http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/softw...ml#post5160274 I think the user's manual is gone forever though which is kind of a bummer especially since I wrote half of it. I spent a long time on that.

For a first time user TL.app is probably the easiest but the least fully featured. Hornresp would be next easiest and much more fully featured, but as you noticed, it doesn't have some of the features you want. Then comes Akabak, much more fully featured than Hornresp but mostly in ways you don't need it to be. Hornresp is pretty mature now. I don't need material density because it's just not a big deal. Then comes the big boy, ABEC3. Good luck with that. Maybe if I live another lifetime I'll try to figure that thing out. Not for the faint of heart. And then there's industry pro stuff you could try to seek out, stuff even I don't know about, maybe BEM for FEMM type stuff but don't be surprised if it's hard to find, hard to get and extremely expensive and requires the equivalent of a college level course to figure out how to use it.

Before you go rogue and try to become a simulation expert, just try to figure out Hornresp. It will help you to learn how simulators work. It will make it a lot easier to use other simulators in the long run. If you start with ABEC3 it's more than likely you will just quit. It's WAY too complicated to start getting into that and expecting to get into the really complex features right away.

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post #77 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 05:28 PM - Thread Starter
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I came across ABEC which looks cool, kind of like some 3D magnetic field modeling software I messed with once upon a time when I was designing a motor.

How much of an effect do you think weird shapes for the box effect things? I can understand the material density thing not having a huge impact so that's fine. If the internal structure of the box is more or less the same situation then no problem. Being able to sim multiple ports and in different locations wrt the speaker would be nice though. I'm still working through this off and on today.
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post #78 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 05:37 PM
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I came across ABEC which looks cool, kind of like some 3D magnetic field modeling software I messed with once upon a time when I was designing a motor.

How much of an effect do you think weird shapes for the box effect things? I can understand the material density thing not having a huge impact so that's fine. If the internal structure of the box is more or less the same situation then no problem. Being able to sim multiple ports and in different locations wrt the speaker would be nice though. I'm still working through this off and on today.
Weird shapes won't affect things much until/unless the dimensions become large (approaching 1/4 wavelength of the frequencies being played at and a bit above the passband). Once the enclosure does become large enough to cause resonances in and around the passband then everything changes and everything is very important. Dimensions are important (shapes), placement and location of both the driver and port are important, everything is important. Every design decision will have an effect. This is what MLTL is all about (mass loaded transmission line). As soon as a ported box has at least one dimension that is significant compared to wavelengths at and slightly above the passband then it's not a simple ported box anymore, it's an mltl and it should be simulated with software that can show this behavior (not WinISD). For mltl design everything is important even though it's just a long ported box - box shape, driver and port location will have a massive impact on overall response.

This is why I use MJK's software almost exclusively to simulate mltl and all types of transmission line. You can specify the box shape and put the port and driver anywhere you like. But his software is no longer available. If I didn't have his software I'd probably use TL.app for mltl and tl design. TL.app has a really nice visual interface feature - you can actually click and drag the driver and the port(s) around through the length of the box and watch the response change in real time as the resonances shift. You can also click and drag the box dimensions.
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post #79 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 06:14 PM - Thread Starter
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Ok so hornresp for sealed, ported and horns but TL.app for any kind of TL? Sorry trying to track down why the ssdpsrv service on my pc is using 12% cpu even though I killed it through an elevated command prompt.
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post #80 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 06:16 PM - Thread Starter
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Turned out to just be the resource monitor needed to be restarted...
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post #81 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 06:22 PM - Thread Starter
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So with HR, ported boxes will always show the port at the rear?
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post #82 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 07:03 PM
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Ok so hornresp for sealed, ported and horns but TL.app for any kind of TL?

...

So with HR, ported boxes will always show the port at the rear?
You can use hornresp for mltl or all types of tl, but yes, the issue with that is that the port is always at the rear, there's nothing you can do about that. If you want to move the port around you can use TL.app, Akabak or MJK's spreadsheets (if by some miracle you can find them). But like I said, you can start the design in Hornresp, export it as an Akabak script, import it into Akabak and finish it in Akabak where you can move the port anywhere you like. Or just do the whole thing in TL.app or just use Hornresp and live with the port being at the end.

Hornresp will allow you to move the driver around though at least. Here's an example of that. You use the segments to define the box AND the port and use an OD configuration (circled in red on the input screen). Then use segment lengths to move the driver around on the chamber. Just copy my inputs and change things and look at the schematic and you will see how this works. So you can sim a mltl with hornresp and you can move the driver around but not the port, the port will always be at the end.



If you want I can also show you how to simulate flared ports with Hornresp. This will help you control port sizes and keep the velocity down at the same time while also pushing the resonances higher in frequency. Use "Flare It" to find the max acceptable velocity for the narrow part of the port and then Hornresp will tell you the velocity at both the narrow part and at the port ends. It's a very handy thing to know how to do and Hornresp has been updated very recently to show velocity at the narrow part of the port so it has everything you need to simulated flared ports (although the driver and port won't be moveable).

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post #83 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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How much of a difference does it make it moving the port around?

So data files are essentially project files from WinISD? I've never bothered saving anything since I would just open several instances and sort out what I wanted then move to CAD design and not look back.
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post #84 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 08:30 PM - Thread Starter
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What exactly is a record? I'm getting a bit confused as to what the organization of this is. Driver database sounds like where driver specs are stored and referenced for easy use, data files sounds like a project file and records might be specific designs within a file? Looks like records are box design/driver(s) combo of which you can have several records in a data file.
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post #85 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 08:35 PM - Thread Starter
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Man diyaudio is getting on my last nerve with this crap where it redirects the page over and over until my back button is full with that one page.

Anyway these dynamic menus are a bit of a pita along with the help file not being scroll-able or sizeable.
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post #86 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 08:35 PM
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How much of a difference does it make it moving the port around?
It can make quite a bit of difference in mltl and tl design. It highlights or hinders certain resonances and just generally changes the resonant behavior.

Quote:
So data files are essentially project files from WinISD? I've never bothered saving anything since I would just open several instances and sort out what I wanted then move to CAD design and not look back.

...

What exactly is a record? I'm getting a bit confused as to what the organization of this is. Driver database sounds like where driver specs are stored and referenced for easy use, data files sounds like a project file and records might be specific designs within a file? Looks like records are box design/driver(s) combo of which you can have several records in a data file.
Are you asking me questions about WinISD? I don't use that program. I know a few things about it but I don't know anything about data files and records. Driver database seems self explanatory.

I can answer anything you want to ask about Hornresp, TL.app, Akabak and MJK's worksheets but I don't want to discuss WinISD much further than to say it is completely inadequate for my needs. Maybe someone else can help with that.
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post #87 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 08:40 PM
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Man diyaudio is getting on my last nerve with this crap where it redirects the page over and over until my back button is full with that one page.
I have no idea what you are talking about. Diyaudio works like any other website or forum for me. I use adblock though so I don't see what problems other people might have related to that.

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Anyway these dynamic menus are a bit of a pita along with the help file not being scroll-able or sizeable.
The menus are easy to fly though once you get the hang of it. Some people don't like the help file for Hornresp (I don't mind it but don't need it much). Some people just copy and paste it into another format I think but the links probably won't work if you do that.

Hornresp is 40 years old, it was never expected to turn into what it has. For that reason a lot of people are turned off by having so many menus and functions hidden literally everywhere. I got in about 10 years ago when it was still relatively simple so I've grown with it and know where everything is - at least everything that I use regularly.

What are you using the help file for? Maybe tutorials would be better for starting out and use the help file only for specific things. Also I'm here to answer your questions.
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post #88 of 230 Old 09-11-2017, 08:52 PM
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Maybe try reading this paper if you are interested in mltl and tl design - it's the standard for beginners wanting to learn tl design and it even has the tools to auto design a transmission line. There's a separate spreadsheet that will do that math for you to auto design. You don't have to read any of the math at all so it shouldn't take too long to go through it.

http://www.quarter-wave.com/TLs/Alignment_Tables.pdf

This part - Attachment B : Transmission Line Response as a Function of Driver Position - shows what happens when you move a driver around along the length of the tl. Basically the same kind of thing happens when you move the port around. It's to control certain resonances to keep the frequency response in line. The combination of driver and port location is fundamentally important in mltl and tl design - as important as driver t/s and location and density of stuffing.

This paper is invaluable if you want to know about mltl and tl and even if you don't it's still a must read IMO because it covers a lot of things that will come into play with other enclosure types. Basically it's all about resonances and how to control them inside the passband.
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I was just trying to go through the help file to get familiar. Yes I was asking about HR not WinISD, just comparing it to WinISD since that's what I'm familiar with.

In HR I'm confused by data files, records, driver database, how to save and edit each etc. With WinISD a project contains one setup of driver(s) and a specific box type, also the driver database is easy to access and either add to or edit existing. I'm trying to understand the structure to HR etc.

Like what is the default parameter file?
What is the editor for?
How do I add to the driver database?
What specifically is a record? (I see I can have multiple within a data file and switch through them for calculation)
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Originally Posted by MeltManBob View Post
Like what is the default parameter file?
If you are talking about record 001, that's just a filled out input screen so Hornresp is not blank when you start it up the first time. It's a complete design that you can hit "calculate" and see the results of that particular design. Basically it's just a placeholder and and example so Hornresp is not blank when you first download it.

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What is the editor for?
Good question, I have no idea. I never even noticed it was there. Rest assured, it probably does something and you don't necessarily need it, I've been using the program for 10 years and didn't even know it was there.

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How do I add to the driver database?
Once you have a driver's t/s input into the input screen, go to File - Copy Driver To Database. Then at any time, in any record, you can click File - Paste Driver From Database. There's also Copy Driver and Paste Driver but if you use those nothing gets saved or retrieved from the database.

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What specifically is a record? (I see I can have multiple within a data file and switch through them for calculation)
A record is a Hornresp design that you save. File 001, the default, is a record. Once you click "Add" you have created the start of a new record. When you make changes to the default record and then save it, you have created a record. Then you can use the Previous and Next buttons at the bottom of the input screen to navigate through all your records, they will be saved by number in order. Or you can click File - Find and navigate through a list of your records, this is handy when you compile a collection of several hundred records.

This is all super simple once you get the hang of it. At this point most people learn by just clicking everything and seeing what happens, it looks like you are reading the instructions first and trying to figure it out that way. It's all pretty intuitive, try clicking everything and just see what happens, that might speed things up a bit for you. If you go through the menus item by item it's going to take forever and you'll be getting into stuff you won't need now (or maybe ever).
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