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post #1 of 21 Old 09-17-2017, 04:26 PM - Thread Starter
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Dayton Audio PA 380

I have a question for any (sim) modeling gurus out there.

I'm considering four dayton audio pa380's (cheap), to try in some enclosures (each 2 cu. ft.) that have been sitting around in my garage. I'm looking to play with as mid bass modules.

I was told by a parts express tech, that the sealed the f3 would be about 93Hz, but vented would be about 60Hz.
The problem is he never specified what size (diameter, length, or even type) of port to use for the 60Hz f3.

Can someone please give me a proper size tube port?
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post #2 of 21 Old 09-17-2017, 10:09 PM
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a single 4" port that is 4.5" long would be a decent start. it is a little hit and miss with short ports. you'll have to experiment and measure to know for sure. that should tune the cab in the 43-45hz ballpark, which would be good for what you are doing. -f3 in winisd would be around 50-55hz.

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post #3 of 21 Old 09-18-2017, 04:03 AM - Thread Starter
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a single 4" port that is 4.5" long would be a decent start. it is a little hit and miss with short ports. you'll have to experiment and measure to know for sure. that should tune the cab in the 43-45hz ballpark, which would be good for what you are doing. -f3 in winisd would be around 50-55hz.
Thank you.

I did find a funny enclosure/port calculator last night.
When I punched in all the speaker parameters with a 2ft'3 vented box, it computed a port dimension of- Lv= 15.48, Dv= 6".

Your suggestion is a better/easier start. I will try it.

These boxes are going to be stacked (2 per side) at left and right sides (outsides) of my mains.
I was initially going to band bass at 50Hz to 150Hz.

Still have 4 lab 12's spread out in the room for the very bottom.

Regards!
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post #4 of 21 Old 09-18-2017, 10:03 AM
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i built 2 mbms using the 12" version tuned to 55hz w a 1.5gross enclosure net about 1.2cft.
works great and crank. for most the diysg mbms are overkill so i went with dayton mine will do 110+ db at 10ft away easily at any usable cutoff. go for it
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post #5 of 21 Old 09-18-2017, 12:34 PM
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Just two thoughts based on my own opinions on this topic. I find it of value to avoid port tuning frequencies that are in the middle of areas that are "modally busy." By this I mean an area for which there are 2-3 modes or more in a particular 1/3 octave bin. This is because I have found that when the tuning is very close to any of the modes in that bin, you get greater excitation of that mode. I have found it better, where possible, to move the tuning of such speakers to below 40hz, as in the majority of small rooms, there would only be one or often even no modes in that region (with the exception of the lone axial mode typically in the 20-25hz range).


It would be my suggestion that you either move the tuning to below 40hz or you look at the room modes in your room and select the tuning so it is substantially away from the modes in that bin. My room is something like 23'x11'x8'. In the bin between 44hz and 55hz I have two modes at 48 and 50hz. In the next bin down I have no modes. That means if I tune to 40hz, the ports output is still nearly flat (within 1 db or so) of its output at 48hz. If I move the tuning down to 35hz, then the output is down about 3db's by 48hz. The point being, try to keep the port tuning substantially away from any modes, especially when there are multiple modes close together. It can exacerbate ringing in the room.


Second point is about the ports themselves. I think a single 4" port is going to audibly chuff in this setup. The model seems to suggest you will hit xmax with around 2-300 watts and at that point the single 4" port is going to have an air velocity that is in excess of 30m/s, you will have audible chuffing and significant port compression. Two 4" ports would be better and keep the air velocity below the point of audible problems. For a 2 cubic foot box, a port tuning of 45hz would require two 4" diameter ports that are about 13.75" long. If I were building these I would probably prefer a tune of around 35hz and that would require the ports to be 24" long (which may not be possible in your boxes).
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post #6 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 06:49 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
Just two thoughts based on my own opinions on this topic. I find it of value to avoid port tuning frequencies that are in the middle of areas that are "modally busy." By this I mean an area for which there are 2-3 modes or more in a particular 1/3 octave bin. This is because I have found that when the tuning is very close to any of the modes in that bin, you get greater excitation of that mode. I have found it better, where possible, to move the tuning of such speakers to below 40hz, as in the majority of small rooms, there would only be one or often even no modes in that region (with the exception of the lone axial mode typically in the 20-25hz range).


It would be my suggestion that you either move the tuning to below 40hz or you look at the room modes in your room and select the tuning so it is substantially away from the modes in that bin. My room is something like 23'x11'x8'. In the bin between 44hz and 55hz I have two modes at 48 and 50hz. In the next bin down I have no modes. That means if I tune to 40hz, the ports output is still nearly flat (within 1 db or so) of its output at 48hz. If I move the tuning down to 35hz, then the output is down about 3db's by 48hz. The point being, try to keep the port tuning substantially away from any modes, especially when there are multiple modes close together. It can exacerbate ringing in the room.


Second point is about the ports themselves. I think a single 4" port is going to audibly chuff in this setup. The model seems to suggest you will hit xmax with around 2-300 watts and at that point the single 4" port is going to have an air velocity that is in excess of 30m/s, you will have audible chuffing and significant port compression. Two 4" ports would be better and keep the air velocity below the point of audible problems. For a 2 cubic foot box, a port tuning of 45hz would require two 4" diameter ports that are about 13.75" long. If I were building these I would probably prefer a tune of around 35hz and that would require the ports to be 24" long (which may not be possible in your boxes).
Thanks for the suggestions.
I sure am getting lots of different port options! I'm surprised to see all the different variations lol.

I will be using a Crown XLS drive core 1002- 2 series in stereo mode, that's only 350W per channel @ 4oHm. With the paired 15" woofers wired in parallel, I'm thinking average 175W per woofer.

My thinking is using four woofers instead of one or two (same SPL) will lower max excursion per woofer, and with high passing them at about 40Hz,
I think Its safe from any port chuffing there?

Ill try a 4" D x 4.5L port like LTD02 suggests, before trying dual ports at 13.75"L or 24"L since its so much easier. If it sucks then Ill give the longer ports a go.
The cabs are each 31" tall, so I could make that happen, even with the 24"L for the lower tune.

Now I'm going down the "box mode" rabbit hole?
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post #7 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 07:29 AM
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Good luck with your adventure.

High passing doesn't prevent chuffing or compression. The chuffing is caused by the very high air velocity in the port, which is centered at the port tuning frequency. You would have to highpass above the port tuning to fix it that way and then it's only because you have reduced output at those frequencies.


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post #8 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 08:32 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
Good luck with your adventure.

High passing doesn't prevent chuffing or compression. The chuffing is caused by the very high air velocity in the port, which is centered at the port tuning frequency. You would have to highpass above the port tuning to fix it that way and then it's only because you have reduced output at those frequencies.


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Thanks.
I think I understand, but perhaps not, so I have a couple of (probably foolish) questions.

You had stated that at xmax with around 2-300 watts, the short/single 4" port is going to have an air velocity that is in excess of 30m/s, and there would be audible chuffing and significant port compression.

In my previous post I had mentioned that with my set-up, at full volume each woofer/cab will be exposed to a maximum of 175W (probably less than one watt with normal listening), which is well below your proposed danger zone.

Shouldnt this help?
I would be using them as helper woofers/mid bass modules, I doubt the gain knobs on the Crown would be passed 12:00.



Lets say I try an fit dual 4"D x 24"L ports for a 35Hz tune (taking the box out of the mode zone) in the 2' cubic box, then use a 40Hz high pass.
Thats a lot of port volume.

Does the volume of the two long 4" ports at all subtract from the 2 cubic foot enclosure volume?
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post #9 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 09:40 AM
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why are u building 15" mbms and then limiting their power input? these are mbms not subs.
the whole idea is a lot of output in a certain range....not an effort to tune as low as possible...that is a sub!

mine can play to 30hz but are cutoff well before that
if u want only 175watts max u dont need 15s you can do it with 10s.

there should be a clear frequency range you want to use and then mbms built to achieve it

every room is also different....at 55hz i have a massive peak that i lower w peq. point being with a peak like that excursion is not an issue and by designing dual 3" ports theres no chance for noise.

u have to build it to you room and needs
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post #10 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 10:01 AM
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i modeled your 2cft box tuned to 45hz with 2 4" vents 14inches long
with 6db of boost at 45hz i can create a flat transfer function to 45hz

give it 300watts it stays easily within excursion and port velocity
and will do 119.5db from 50 and up at 1m
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post #11 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 10:56 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by RoboAVS View Post
why are u building 15" mbms and then limiting their power input? these are mbms not subs.
the whole idea is a lot of output in a certain range....not an effort to tune as low as possible...that is a sub!

mine can play to 30hz but are cutoff well before that
if u want only 175watts max u dont need 15s you can do it with 10s.

there should be a clear frequency range you want to use and then mbms built to achieve it

every room is also different....at 55hz i have a massive peak that i lower w peq. point being with a peak like that excursion is not an issue and by designing dual 3" ports theres no chance for noise.

u have to build it to you room and needs
Perhaps you didn't read the thread.

My question was on how to build four mid bass modules using PA380's, using some 2' cubed existing boxes I own. That's it.
As Iv'e stated, my intention was to use them from approx. 50-150Hz.

"Mpoes12" had suggested to tune lower, not me. Tuned to around 35Hz, to escape what he called "box modes".

I have already mentioned I have four subs.

I'm not worried about "limiting their power input". The PA380's are 96db/w. If doubling woofers equates to an increase of 3db sensitivity, then using four creates 102db/w.

Thanks for the new port configuration.
Although it is yet another different configuration as to the others already proposed .
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post #12 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 11:04 AM
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I would model them in WINSID or hornresp so you can actually see what is happening.

Depending on the tune, pe etc you go with a single 4" port looks fine for port velocity and xmax will not be an issue with 300watts. I just modeled an example of 2cf 35hz tune with 300watts with a BW 35hz high pass and it looks good to me. You could use a steep filter or set it higher to reduce the xmax below tune I just used the BW 35hz as an example.


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File Type: jpg Pa380 port velocity. & port info.jpg (231.2 KB, 159 views)
File Type: jpg Pa380 xmax.jpg (258.0 KB, 156 views)

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post #13 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 11:19 AM
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Also going with a lower tune you are compromising output up in the midbass range which is why you are building these is it not? So seems counterproductive to me to tune them lower. But that is up to you.

I have a couple PA subs and you lose quite a bit of output in the midbass with a lower tune. I have an enclosure I can change the tune from 40hz to 34hz to 28hz and it is noticeable the decrease in output with the lower tunes. I prefer the higher output in the midbass with a higher tune. I use sealed subs for the lower bass.

I not saying tune it higher or tune lower just realize there is a compromise with whichever you do. I would rather have the extra output available if needed and let the room EQ(or manual EQ) take down the midbass if it is too much rather than tune lower and not have enough midbass and need it.

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post #14 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 12:08 PM - Thread Starter
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Thanks "bscool" for those examples.

I'm attracted to the first example you show tuned to 35Hz. I could consider that, with a 40Hz high pass.

I'm looking to use the crossover system that my Crown amp already incorporates, its a Linkwitz-Riley 24dB/octave filter.
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post #15 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 01:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bscool View Post
I would model them in WINSID or hornresp so you can actually see what is happening.



Depending on the tune, pe etc you go with a single 4" port looks fine for port velocity and xmax will not be an issue with 300watts. I just modeled an example of 2cf 35hz tune with 300watts with a BW 35hz high pass and it looks good to me. You could use a steep filter or set it higher to reduce the xmax below tune I just used the BW 35hz as an example.







Your model is the same as mine and shows velocity as 19.5 ms. I consider that too high to guarantee no compression or chuffing.

I've had some bad experience with undersized ports where the model suggested port velocities under 20 but which in reality had obvious distortion and obvious compression.

As for the low tune, to each his own. As I said, I've had bad luck with ported speakers that are tuned on top of modes and seriously exacerbated the ringing. I could show roughly the same frequency response but if I lowered the tune and eqed back to flat, much of the ringing was reduced. I actually talked to some folks who indicated they were studying something similar and had am AES paper coming, but I've not seen it.

If there are two ports he has flexibility to play with the tuning potentially.


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post #16 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 01:41 PM
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[QUOTE=johnnycamp5;54824422]Perhaps you didn't read the thread.

My question was on how to build four mid bass modules using PA380's, using some 2' cubed existing boxes I own. That's it.
As Iv'e stated, my intention was to use them from approx. 50-150Hz.

"Mpoes12" had suggested to tune lower, not me. Tuned to around 35Hz, to escape what he called "box modes".

I have already mentioned I have four subs.

I'm not worried about "limiting their power input". The PA380's are 96db/w. If doubling woofers equates to an increase of 3db sensitivity, then using four creates 102db/w.

Thanks for the new port configuration.
Although it is yet another different configuration as to the others already proposed .


i did understand....was just saying 4 15" drivers is beyond overkill for the purpose and retrofitting them to a specific purpose is wasting a lot of potential.

2 10s can do this....i was saying why limit the 4 drivers simply because you have existing boxes? In the right box you will get a lot more. my 2c.
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post #17 of 21 Old 09-19-2017, 01:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
Your model is the same as mine and shows velocity as 19.5 ms. I consider that too high to guarantee no compression or chuffing.

I've had some bad experience with undersized ports where the model suggested port velocities under 20 but which in reality had obvious distortion and obvious compression.

As for the low tune, to each his own. As I said, I've had bad luck with ported speakers that are tuned on top of modes and seriously exacerbated the ringing. I could show roughly the same frequency response but if I lowered the tune and eqed back to flat, much of the ringing was reduced. I actually talked to some folks who indicated they were studying something similar and had am AES paper coming, but I've not seen it.

If there are two ports he has flexibility to play with the tuning potentially.


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Can you post that model as when I try it it is running out of Xmax at the higher frequencies when it is tuned to 25hz. Maybe I am missing something.

Edit: nevermind I see you talking about your in-room measurement.

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post #18 of 21 Old 09-24-2017, 02:52 PM - Thread Starter
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So I went ahead and installed some PA380's in the boxes today.
Im not having any luck posting a pic/attachment lol.

Things were easier than I thought, so I went with a 4" diameter port, at a length length of 10.37", like "Mpoes" and "bscool" had modeled for me.

Three of the four woofers measure right around 6.1/6.2 Re, but one measures 5.8.

Is this an acceptable variance?
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Quote:
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So I went ahead and installed some PA380's in the boxes today.
Im not having any luck posting a pic/attachment lol.

Things were easier than I thought, so I went with a 4" diameter port, at a length length of 10.37", like "Mpoes" and "bscool" had modeled for me.

Three of the four woofers measure right around 6.1/6.2 Re, but one measures 5.8.

Is this an acceptable variance?


Looks good and yes that's within the acceptable range. The official value is 6.3. You are within 10%. You should run some tests through each one separately within close range to listen for anomalies . While Parts Express has been good at ensuring decent QC they aren't perfect. If everything sounds clean it's probably fine. Remember to give the speakers a chance to break in before going nuts. The suspension components will change a little with some use. You may also smell some burning chemical smells when using them intensely for the first month or so. That's just normal outclassing exacerbated by extra heat in the motor. Some will come from the adhesives on the voice coil, the suspension, cone, etc.

Enjoy your new found midbass glory.


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post #20 of 21 Old 09-24-2017, 09:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnnycamp5 View Post
Perhaps you didn't read the thread.

My question was on how to build four mid bass modules using PA380's, using some 2' cubed existing boxes I own. That's it.
As Iv'e stated, my intention was to use them from approx. 50-150Hz.

"Mpoes12" had suggested to tune lower, not me. Tuned to around 35Hz, to escape what he called "box modes".

I have already mentioned I have four subs.

I'm not worried about "limiting their power input". The PA380's are 96db/w. If doubling woofers equates to an increase of 3db sensitivity, then using four creates 102db/w.

Thanks for the new port configuration.
Although it is yet another different configuration as to the others already proposed .


I just noticed this misquote. I did not say anything about box modes. There are no modes in sub boxes. I was talking about room modes. I was talking about having a box tuning match a rooms mode. Different issue.


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post #21 of 21 Old 09-25-2017, 02:58 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
Looks good and yes that's within the acceptable range. The official value is 6.3. You are within 10%. You should run some tests through each one separately within close range to listen for anomalies . While Parts Express has been good at ensuring decent QC they aren't perfect. If everything sounds clean it's probably fine. Remember to give the speakers a chance to break in before going nuts. The suspension components will change a little with some use. You may also smell some burning chemical smells when using them intensely for the first month or so. That's just normal outclassing exacerbated by extra heat in the motor. Some will come from the adhesives on the voice coil, the suspension, cone, etc.

Enjoy your new found midbass glory.


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Sounds good thanks.
About the room modes, I quoted you wrong, but I understand you about trying not to tune a box at an (possibly) existing room mode.
Once the cabs are in place Ill run some sweeps. I have a new UMM-6. I have to download REW.

Regards!
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