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post #1 of 26 Old 09-24-2017, 05:52 PM - Thread Starter
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Help me pick a new front sound stage! With 3D models!

Hello! I'm planning a full upgrade for my living room theater, and I'm looking for some advice on which DIYSG speakers to use and how to arrange the new setup. Read below!


CURRENT SETUP:

I currently have a 96" AT screen that is about 10 ft away from the MLP. I have three Ascend CMT-340s for LCR powered by a Denon AVR, and a 12" Dayton Titanic sub in a sealed enclosure powered by a Dayton plate amp. Bass sounds underwhelming and sloppy in my room, and occasionally the sub will clip. I have some 2" mineral wool acoustic panels on the walls and ceiling, but no bass traps (yet!). The room is 12' wide and ceilings are 7.5' tall.

I have lots of wasted space behind my screen, as there is a recessed fireplace which never gets used. There is currently 37" between the white brick fireplace wall and the AT screen. I can use the space better by moving the subs and speakers up onto the ledge in front of the fireplace. I'd like to get a larger screen (CIH or CIH+IMAX), push the screen back as far as possible, and upgrade the sound stage.






PLANNED UPGRADED SUBS:

I plan to build 2 or 4 ported subwoofers using the Dayton PA460 driver in 11.2 net cubic ft enclosures. The dual ports are 5"x5" and 37" long. They are similar to this design (6 sub budget build - an LTD02 design), except my ports will be front firing due to space constraints. You can see them in the CAD model pictures below.


PLANNED UPGRADED SCREEN:

I'm happy with the size of my screen for 16:9 content, but scope movies feel much less immersive than I'd like. I can keep the same angular height of my screen by getting a 142" diagonal 2.35 screen and pushing it back a foot (space permitting) for a CIH presentation. I may also go the CIH+IMAX with 4 way adjustable masking, but that's a different topic. In my CAD models I show the 142" diagonal scope screen. I plan to cover the surrounding walls and ceiling with black velvet to absorb light reflections near the screen.


PLANNED UPGRADED SPEAKERS:

I would like my new speakers to have the most cohesive and spatially accurate sound stage as possible. I will put the acoustic centers of the speakers 5/8ths up the height of the screen, and aimed at the MLP (the LR speakers may need different toe-in though). Sound accuracy is important too, but overall output is less important, as I don't listen very loud. Any of the DIYSG speakers should have plenty of output for my purposes.


SPEAKER OPTION 1: Titan-615

The Titans are the easiest to arrange, as I can mount the bass modules flush with the subs (pseudo baffle wall!), and only aim the horns. However, I have to make a narrower and deeper sub enclosure in order to fit the bass modules between them. This arrangement puts the screen 23.6" from the brick fireplace wall, but only has 3.1" between the subs and the screen. 11' 1.4" from MLP to screen.








SPEAKER OPTION 2: Elusive 1099

Because these speakers are so narrow, I can make wider and shallower sub enclosures. However, because they are so tall, they begin to interfere with the fireplace mantle once I rotate them so they are pointed at the MLP. This forces the screen to get pushed out into the room a little more. This arrangement puts the screen 26" from the brick fireplace wall, but has plenty of space (8") between the subs and screen. 10' 11" from MLP to screen.

This symmetric woofers on this speaker also seem like it would give the most precise acoustical center. I read a comment that drivers on the Titan feel a bit spatially "separate".








SPEAKER OPTION 3: HTM-12

This arrangement is similar to the Titan. Screen is 23" from the brick wall, but only 2.5" from the subwoofers. 11' 2" from MLP to screen. These are also the cheapest speaker, but I'm happy to pay more for the other speakers if they perform better.








QUESTIONS:

(1) Which speakers do you recommend for the best acoustical and spatially accurate sound stage? Overall output not a concern as I don't listen too loud.

(2) Is 3" too close for the subs to be to the AT screen? I was hoping that 4 18" drivers would reduce the vibration amplitude at any single point on the screen.

(3) Do I need to put any acoustic absorbing material between the brick wall and the bottom subs? I plan on stuffing pink fluffy in all other cavities behind the screen.

(4) I want to get more punchy mid-bass out of my system, as there seems to a void there in my current system. Does this come from the low end of the speaker, or the high end of the sub?

(5) Any other thoughts or arrangement ideas I haven't considered?

(6) I'M STOKED TO BUILD THIS!

Last edited by bochoss; 09-24-2017 at 08:16 PM.
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post #2 of 26 Old 09-24-2017, 09:13 PM
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Yeah plate amps suck, and 12's aren't very loud. I'm not surprised you can clip it.
People around here tend to clip multiple 14000w pro-amps, not because they are weak, but because they are THAT crazy.

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Originally Posted by bochoss View Post
(4) I want to get more punchy mid-bass out of my system, as there seems to a void there in my current system. Does this come from the low end of the speaker, or the high end of the sub?
Both.

F-15's from DIYSG are pretty decent for the money. Most people just go with those.
Movies really only sound good with high effeciency speakers, especially behind an AT screen. At 108db/w the SEOS in the F-15, it definitely has that...
It will also increase your mid-bass and transition nicely into the 460's, and it will also reduce the load on the amplifier to minimal-levels.

The nu6000dsp is a pretty decent amp for the money, it can drive 4 460's with ease. In fact you'll probably want to set the power limiter.
Keep in mind that all amp companies overrate their stuff, and doubling of power is only 3db louder, so it is best to GO BIG if the price difference isn't high. The headroom prevents clipping and keeps the amp cool by not being overworked.

As far as overheating and clipping goes, there are only 2 amplifiers I've never been able to overheat: The ICE-1000 and the FP14000.
ED LT-1300 plate? Overheated!
Velodyne Digital 3kW plate? Overheated!
EP-4000? Overheated!
XTI-4000? Killed!
My lust for MORE BASS seems unending...

You'll definitely want to service fluffy behind the screen. (Why does that sound so dirty? haha! )
There will be a fair amount of resonance their that would benefit from absorption.

I believe trapezoidal side-walls are best, because they are symmetrical but not parallel. I don't think you'll have the width for that and probably don't or can't rip up those.

When I moved my downstairs had an unused fireplace too, I took a sledgehammer to it to reclaim the space.
Threw the bricks in the back of my truck and took it to the dump. Laid all new carpet, gained about 3ft of floor area in my case.
The good news is that brick is better than drywall at blocking bass from leaving the house, so you may want too keep it there.
If there is any glass, I'd took at removing it before the rattles drive you crazy.

4 460 have almost enough output to break drywall. It will have a decent amount of chest-kick for action explosions, horror jump scares and rock music.

You could probably drive 16 460's with one nu6kDSP, if you had to...

Given the option, it is always better to double the number of cones, rather than double the wattage.
It doubles the surface area, cuts the needed excursion in half. Which means: louder and less distortion.
Where as throwing more power at the problem just increases heat and distortion, and while in-theory they should both add 3db, you'll not likely get it by overheating the coils and amplifier, where as doubling the cones you for-sure will get the 3db!
Of course you'll still need some "reasonable amount" of power to push the subwoofer array.

The inukes are cheap, have decent efficiency being Class-D (runs cool and monthly bill won't be high), they have XO/EQ DSP, and they have adjustable power limiters. So it makes sense why the 6000DSP is so popular. You can customize it to nearly any load or power rating (within reason).
It has enough power to drive nearly anything (except maybe high-end sealed 21's, 24's or 32's.)
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post #3 of 26 Old 09-24-2017, 09:28 PM
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Help me pick a new front sound stage! With 3D models!

If I were in your shoes I think I would look at the HTM12 or Titans. The Titans are favored by many for their midbass and that 15" driver is supposed to be pretty great.

I didn't love the 1099's when I heard them so they would be bottom of my list. A lot of people love them.

I think all of these speakers will have good precise soundstage. I find CD speakers generally have the best soundstage I've heard in terms of width. Everything is placed very precisely and a very realistic picture of the instruments is portrayed. I have found some of these to be more challenged in portraying depth.

I personally prefer designs that use larger waveguides and larger midbass drivers. I know Matt has said his Titans are his best sounding design but I have a soft spot for his HTM12.

I think that in terms of the midbass sound you are looking for and the sound staging, that setup will play a bigger role. In general that's the case.

First, if you aren't using measurements to do setup, then I would spend time learning to do that right.

A lot of the visceral kick you get from a drum set, something many attribute to good midbass, actually comes from the response above 50hz or so. Much of it is actually over 100hz. In addition, the modes are fairly dense up in that range but just sparse enough to cause the biggest bass anomalies. Your planned sub setup will very likely create a plane bass wave and this will actually mitigate some of these modal problems. However I suggest overlapping the lcr speakers and subs. The lcr should be highpasses near its port tuning frequency, not higher in my opinion. Those speakers all have significant sub 80hz output and can contribute to the midbass. Conversely those subs have great clean output over 100hz and you will have them mounted only up front. Why waste their midbass.

As for soundstage. Just make sure you optimize their position and toe angle. First reflections are largely not a big issue with these speakers and their first reflection point is actually quite a bit farther out into the room. You may want to play with more panels or add some to places closer to your seated position.

On the seating front, how close are you seated to a wall? Do you sit against the rear wall by chance?


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post #4 of 26 Old 09-24-2017, 09:32 PM
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I'd be very leery of any arrangement that ends up with the L and R speakers set back from the subs and firing into their sides, like option 1 and 3 as configured. YMMV.
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post #5 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 01:34 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
F-15's from DIYSG are pretty decent for the money. Most people just go with those.
Movies really only sound good with high effeciency speakers, especially behind an AT screen. At 108db/w the SEOS in the F-15, it definitely has that...
It will also increase your mid-bass and transition nicely into the 460's, and it will also reduce the load on the amplifier to minimal-levels.
First off, thanks for the detailed reply!

Erich suggested the F-15s as well. My only concern with those is how much space they take up when I have to rotate the LR speakers. Because they are fairly wide, tall, and deep, they quickly eat up depth in the room when I toe them in and point them down. I'd still get the 15" driver on the Titans, but I save on space because I only have to rotate the much smaller horn section. Granted the Titans cost a bit more..

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
The nu6000dsp is a pretty decent amp for the money, it can drive 4 460's with ease. In fact you'll probably want to set the power limiter.
Keep in mind that all amp companies overrate their stuff, and doubling of power is only 3db louder, so it is best to GO BIG if the price difference isn't high. The headroom prevents clipping and keeps the amp cool by not being overworked.
OK I was planning on a NU6000DSP or NU3000DSP. I see both have been used for this driver, but I guess more headroom can't hurt, especially if running all of them off one amp.

If using a single 2 channel amp, would I pair them as a top pair on one channel, bottom on the other? Or by left pair and right pair? I'm assuming this would matter if setting up EQ or delays in the amp. Since the lower subs are closer to the MLP, I thought they might need a slight delay to be in phase with the top subs.

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When I moved my downstairs had an unused fireplace too, I took a sledgehammer to it to reclaim the space.
Threw the bricks in the back of my truck and took it to the dump. Laid all new carpet, gained about 3ft of floor area in my case.
The good news is that brick is better than drywall at blocking bass from leaving the house, so you may want too keep it there.
If there is any glass, I'd took at removing it before the rattles drive you crazy.
As much as I'd love to demolish the fireplace, this is a rental house, so i can't exactly make drastic permanent changes that aren't landlord approved. No glass though! There is just a board that covers the fireplace opening, which currently has a couple acoustic panels in front of it. I wonder if the chimney will resonate though...

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Originally Posted by BassThatHz View Post
Given the option, it is always better to double the number of cones, rather than double the wattage.
It doubles the surface area, cuts the needed excursion in half. Which means: louder and less distortion.
My thoughts as well. Plus those drivers are so cheap. The only real hassle is building 2 extra boxes. I'm excited to get rid of the Dayton Titanic sub though. I've had it for 10 years and never liked it.

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post #6 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 02:04 AM - Thread Starter
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If I were in your shoes I think I would look at the HTM12 or Titans. The Titans are favored by many for their midbass and that 15" driver is supposed to be pretty great.

I didn't love the 1099's when I heard them so they would be bottom of my list. A lot of people love them.
Yeah I've heard mixed reviews on the 1099s as well. There are a couple threads around here where they were compared to other popular speakers. In one case they were the landslide favorite, in the other, they performed poorly without acoustic treatments, but were the favorite with acoustic treatments. Go figure. I also noticed their lack of midbass on some of the DIYSG reviews.

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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
I personally prefer designs that use larger waveguides and larger midbass drivers. I know Matt has said his Titans are his best sounding design but I have a soft spot for his HTM12.
If I do go with the Titans, I'd then have to decide between the standard or LX version...

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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
First, if you aren't using measurements to do setup, then I would spend time learning to do that right.
I recently got a UMIK-1, but have only fiddled around with it and REW a couple times. Definitely need to figure out how to utilize that better. I also use the standard Audyssey setup and tweaked the few settings they allow you to.

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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
A lot of the visceral kick you get from a drum set, something many attribute to good midbass, actually comes from the response above 50hz or so. Much of it is actually over 100hz. In addition, the modes are fairly dense up in that range but just sparse enough to cause the biggest bass anomalies. Your planned sub setup will very likely create a plane bass wave and this will actually mitigate some of these modal problems. However I suggest overlapping the lcr speakers and subs. The lcr should be highpasses near its port tuning frequency, not higher in my opinion. Those speakers all have significant sub 80hz output and can contribute to the midbass. Conversely those subs have great clean output over 100hz and you will have them mounted only up front. Why waste their midbass.
Yes I want that "bass plane"! I certainly have some room modes going on. At ~50 Hz there is a null at MLP, but if stand up and move forward a little bit, I'm in the peak.

OK, I'll have to play with overlapping LCR and subs. I'm not sure I'll be able to high pass the LCR speakers on the Denon AVR though, while still sending the entire bass LCR signals to the subs. Guess I'll look into that. Is there a concern for phase issues with speakers and subs both playing the same frequencies? I'm guessing this is where the calibration mic comes into play more.

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Originally Posted by Mpoes12 View Post
On the seating front, how close are you seated to a wall? Do you sit against the rear wall by chance?
MLP is dead center in the width of the room, so about 6 feet away from either wall. However, when we have lots of viewers, some people end up sitting right next to each wall. They tend not to be the AV enthusiast type though. The room narrows from 12 feet wide to 9 feet wide, but that partial rear wall happens 4 feet behind MLP. The rest of the room extends another 10 feet or so beyond that.
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post #7 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 02:06 AM - Thread Starter
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I'd be very leery of any arrangement that ends up with the L and R speakers set back from the subs and firing into their sides, like option 1 and 3 as configured. YMMV.
Yes this is a concern of mine as well. It's a trade-off of having the screen as far back as possible, or partially firing the LR speakers into the side of the subs. The other option is not toeing in the speakers quite as much.
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post #8 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 06:42 AM
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I?d go with the titans. Because I did ! But for real, there so easy to build, being able to aim the top section independent of the bottom is a plus. They sound fantastic. I love them. I?ve heard htm-12?s, cinema 10?s, all the volts, 1099?s and more. They will all sound great for sure. I like where your headed.
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post #9 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 08:08 AM
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Yeah I've heard mixed reviews on the 1099s as well. There are a couple threads around here where they were compared to other popular speakers. In one case they were the landslide favorite, in the other, they performed poorly without acoustic treatments, but were the favorite with acoustic treatments. Go figure. I also noticed their lack of midbass on some of the DIYSG reviews.



If I do go with the Titans, I'd then have to decide between the standard or LX version...



I recently got a UMIK-1, but have only fiddled around with it and REW a couple times. Definitely need to figure out how to utilize that better. I also use the standard Audyssey setup and tweaked the few settings they allow you to.



Yes I want that "bass plane"! I certainly have some room modes going on. At ~50 Hz there is a null at MLP, but if stand up and move forward a little bit, I'm in the peak.

OK, I'll have to play with overlapping LCR and subs. I'm not sure I'll be able to high pass the LCR speakers on the Denon AVR though, while still sending the entire bass LCR signals to the subs. Guess I'll look into that. Is there a concern for phase issues with speakers and subs both playing the same frequencies? I'm guessing this is where the calibration mic comes into play more.



MLP is dead center in the width of the room, so about 6 feet away from either wall. However, when we have lots of viewers, some people end up sitting right next to each wall. They tend not to be the AV enthusiast type though. The room narrows from 12 feet wide to 9 feet wide, but that partial rear wall happens 4 feet behind MLP. The rest of the room extends another 10 feet or so beyond that.


Ok I early need to figure out how to multi-quote.


I'm giving up for now since I have other things I need to do besides learn forum software.


Yes the 1099's get mixed reviews. I first heard them in a non-optimized setup with no subs, and it was unfair to them. The other speakers had more bass and that alone made the others sound better. I later heard them in an optimized space with subs and came away with a similar opinion. I thought they sounded bright and lacked midbass. I thought they had a good soundstage but not the very best I had heard. I thought they were fairly resolving of fine details in the music. While they did some things great, their tonal balance was not one for me. In the end I felt like my personal choice would be for a different DIYSG speaker. The HTM-12's most closely match my own current speakers so I have a soft spot for them, as I mentioned.


If you go with the Titan's, I would decide how much of an audiophile you are or if the cost difference will matter to you. If the cost difference is inconsequential, then go with the LX. If you want the last word in resolution and want the ability to pair these with really objectively great source gear, then get the LX. If you want 95% of the performance of the LX but really need to save the money, then get the standard Titan. I haven't actually heard the Titans myself, but people who's opinion I trust have nothing but good things to say. I am familiar with the midrange and tweeter used in the LX version, and I've heard it in the QSC style waveguide as well as a custom molded version. I was very impressed with the sound. There resolving power was so great I had seriously considered changing out my own CD's to those (but I don't need a threaded CD so it wasn't a realistic proposition).


With regard to Bass plane, I just want to make sure I'm understood. I sometimes get mis-quoted by individuals who I think misunderstand what I'm saying and then mis-quote based on what someone else has said that I said. There isn't really any such thing as a bass plane, its a plane wave. It refers to an acoustic wave (in this case) that moves from front to back and then back to front with a consistent shift in phase across the entire lateral direction. Imagine if you took slices of your room when an acoustic wave is sent through your room, and examined the wave's phase at various points in space in the X and Y axis (Let's call the length of the room the Z axis). With a normal wave you would find that at various frequencies the phase is different in different X and Y coordinates. This causes high and low pressure areas where the sound within the single plane (that we sliced) will measure differently (and sound differently). With a plane wave, the phase across the X and Y axis is constant and changes only over it's path down the Z axis. In simple terms it means you no longer have any modes caused by the width or height of the room. Only length modes and some inconsequential higher order modes. The plane wave in and of itself isn't necessary good or bad, while it is true that you have completely eliminated the width and height modes, the length modes are still problematic. In the bass arrays that have been tested and deployed, you eliminate the back wave reflection and have zero modes. If you can't do that (and most people can't do that easily) you still have some pretty strong modal problems to contend with. You will only achieve this for a limited bandwidth. Basically only under the range the subs operate. The most problematic area for bass is the 80hz to 300hz range, and this is in the range where most people don't have the advantage of a plane wave. This is really what I was getting at. You can't probably extend your subs up to 300hz for a variety of reasons, but I think you should consider operating them up above 80hz. Well into the 120-150hz range is probably worth at least experimenting with.


Measurements are going to be critical to this setup. Having no overlap is much easier to integrate everything, even if it compromises the ability to tackle these modes. Earl Geddes has been a proponent of overlapping as have a number of audio and speaker manufacturers. However the common wisdom taken (out of context in my opinion) from THX has been to minimize overlap through 80hz crossovers of 2nd order nature. That really wasn't chosen based on extensive research into lf transmission in small spaces. Audyssey does not handle this kind of complex arrangement well so you can't rely on audyssey. In fact, you will get goofy results if you haven't optimized the crossovers yourself ahead of time. You will also need to ignore its high/low pass recommendations as they won't be right for this.


Most receivers have the ability to overlap the subs and mains. It's sometimes called double bass. In my Onkyo it is only an option if I run my mains full range. That is exactly what I do. In my case my mains are intentionally not ported and this allows me to run them full range without risk of exceeding xmax. While that isn't true of ported speakers, you already said you don't listen that loud. It is very likely that you wouldn't exceed xmax in practice with something like the Titan's either. I would give it a try. Basically, you don't have to follow my advice, but it is rooted deeply in scientific theory and real world experimentation of really high caliber scientists, so I wouldn't reject it either. Try it, if it doesn't sound best or doesn't work best, try a clean hand off between speakers. If it does, it just might get you what you want. The Dayton 18" drivers and that Eminence 15" driver both have great midbass, why shouldn't they both contribute to its reproduction.
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post #10 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 08:09 AM
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Any reason the 893 wasnt on the list? Cheaper than the 1099's, smaller box size (can be made ported if needed) so it would allow for wider, skinnier sub boxes (I think) and may not interfere with your fireplace ledge so you can just shoot them straight out into the room as the height of the horn may be right about perfect.

I'm looking at the 893's myself (rather than the 1099's) for their smaller size and IIRC they are fairly similar to the 1099's just dont dig as deep, which you dont need if your using the Dayton PA subs because they can be crossed pretty high up and help fill out the bottom if the 893's are lacking that midrange for some reason.

Beyond that, nice setup, I'm kinda jealous. I dont have a legit room since its all open to other rooms, which has made things a PITA.

As a last thought, I was told that the height of the horn isnt TOO big a deal if its not right around 36" give or take due to the way it projects sound out. So you may not need to tilt the 1099's like your picture either, depending on how much above or below 36" they are.

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post #11 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 11:30 AM - Thread Starter
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I?d go with the titans. Because I did ! But for real, there so easy to build, being able to aim the top section independent of the bottom is a plus. They sound fantastic. I love them. I?ve heard htm-12?s, cinema 10?s, all the volts, 1099?s and more. They will all sound great for sure. I like where your headed.
Thanks for the recommendation! Did you get the standard version or the LX version?
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post #12 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 11:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
I?d go with the titans. Because I did ! But for real, there so easy to build, being able to aim the top section independent of the bottom is a plus. They sound fantastic. I love them. I?ve heard htm-12?s, cinema 10?s, all the volts, 1099?s and more. They will all sound great for sure. I like where your headed.
Thanks for the recommendation! Did you get the standard version or the LX version?
I have the lx. I just read somewhere Erich said not one standard Titan has been built yet. That may be old info. I think the standard Titan would make you very happy. Like has been said already in this thread, if the cost savings is worth it to you, your not missing much performance.
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Ok I early need to figure out how to multi-quote.

I'm giving up for now since I have other things I need to do besides learn forum software.
I just copied and pasted the bracketed QUOTE text that is automatically inserted at the begging and end when you click the Quote button. Put a pair around each paragraph you want to quote, and insert your own text beneath. I never actually tried the "Multi-Quote" button.

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If you want 95% of the performance of the LX but really need to save the money, then get the standard Titan.
I don't need to save the money, it's just already a lot of money to spend on something I've never heard. But if the standard version truly sounds 95% as good, then I'll get the standard and pocket the difference. If the audible difference is greater, than I'll go LX. I guess I just need to hear some!

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With regard to Bass plane, I just want to make sure I'm understood.
Fully understood! That was a great explanation too. I realize I will still have longitudinal modes, but hopefully having a stepped back wall with multiple openings on the side wall will attenuate this, as well as throwing in some corner bass traps. I'll draw up a diagram of the entire room layout when I get a chance.

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Most receivers have the ability to overlap the subs and mains. It's sometimes called double bass. In my Onkyo it is only an option if I run my mains full range. That is exactly what I do.
I've got this option too. I will definitely give each configuration a try. Again, thanks for the detailed explanation.
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post #14 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 12:07 PM - Thread Starter
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Any reason the 893 wasnt on the list? Cheaper than the 1099's, smaller box size (can be made ported if needed) so it would allow for wider, skinnier sub boxes (I think) and may not interfere with your fireplace ledge so you can just shoot them straight out into the room as the height of the horn may be right about perfect.
No real reason, other than to keep the post shorter . You're right though, the form factor is pretty attractive vs the 1099. Perhaps I'll model them up to see how they fit.

The only real reason I'd put it lower on the list is the lack of bass if I run them full range. I could build a ported version for more bass, but there is not an available flat pack, and that would start to increase the enclosure size again (sealed flat pack is out of stock too). But as you said, I could have the subs handle that range if needed.

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Beyond that, nice setup, I'm kinda jealous. I dont have a legit room since its all open to other rooms, which has made things a PITA.
Well the rear of my living room opens up to other parts of the house as well, there is just a convenient 3 walled end to it to stick a home theater. The left wall has a large bay window which complicates things a bit though. I plan on posting a room layout sketch later. Any way you can add a wall or two to your living room?

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post #15 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 12:10 PM - Thread Starter
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I have the lx. I just read somewhere Erich said not one standard Titan has been built yet. That may be old info. I think the standard Titan would make you very happy. Like has been said already in this thread, if the cost savings is worth it to you, your not missing much performance.
True, but if I get the standard one, I may always be wondering "what if".
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post #16 of 26 Old 09-25-2017, 01:44 PM
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No real reason, other than to keep the post shorter . You're right though, the form factor is pretty attractive vs the 1099. Perhaps I'll model them up to see how they fit.

The only real reason I'd put it lower on the list is the lack of bass if I run them full range. I could build a ported version for more bass, but there is not an available flat pack, and that would start to increase the enclosure size again (sealed flat pack is out of stock too). But as you said, I could have the subs handle that range if needed.
Yeah I get the flatpack being the preference, I'm in the same boat, but I'm likely to DIY the box (or have someone else cut it for me), since the height I need makes the ported box more realistic because I'm just using space that otherwise I'd fill with sand because I need it to make the speakers taller.

The Full Range thing makes sense, however I don't do that myself. My Polk LSi 15's are rated down to somewhere in the 30's, but I run em to 80 and cross to my subs for everything because my subs do it better. Even if I port my 893's I dont think/plan on running them full range either, unless I specifically choose to run PURE which would remove XT32 from the mix as well as my subs, and I dont know if my room acoustics are good enough on their own to make that a option that sounds good.

Personal preference of course takes precedent there.

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Well the rear of my living room opens up to other parts of the house as well, there is just a convenient 3 walled end to it to stick a home theater. The left wall has a large bay window which complicates things a bit though. I plan on posting a room layout sketch later. Any way you can add a wall or two to your living room?
Nope . The Left wall is open to the to front entrance at the front and the hallway to dining room where the rear corner would be. The only "wall" is actually just the part under the staircase to the second floor.

The "rear" wall is only 48" tall but open to the kitchen and eat in kitchen for most of the length and the right rear corner is totally open to that.

The right wall has 3 windows along it too so I get some "really nice" reflections off that too...

Oh and its on a slab so tactile feel is a PITA to achieve (but I'm working on it)...

So again, quite jealous of at least having two corners and 3 walls

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post #17 of 26 Old 10-01-2017, 10:51 PM - Thread Starter
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So I've got an acoustical interference issue with the border of my masking panel when viewing 16:9 content. Since the Titan's have a fairly wide horn, they don't fit within the AT section of the masking panels, causing some of the sound from the LR speakers to get blocked by the border of the panel.

I don't see an obvious solution since I can't really change the width of the masking panel or the Titan horn. The AT section of the masking panel is 13.9" wide, and the titan horn is 16.2" wide. These are fairly close, but the issue gets exacerbated because the horn is toed in.

Do I just live with some of the sound being blocked during 16:9 content? Somehow develop a partially AT border? I don't really want to choose a narrower speaker. I've included some screenshots of the model, with at 45 degree coverage pattern shown.

View of left speaker from MLP:


View of left speaker from far right seat, which would be right of the couch shown:


Top view
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post #18 of 26 Old 10-02-2017, 05:31 AM
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Don?t make the mistake of trying to cram to much speaker into too little of a space. Any of the speakers your considering are way too much firepower. Choose a speaker that fits the space. Lol even though I did it.
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Don?t make the mistake of trying to cram to much speaker into too little of a space. Any of the speakers your considering are way too much firepower. Choose a speaker that fits the space. Lol even though I did it.
Well it fits fine without the masking panels... Haha, aren't you building 1099s now too though?? But yeah, the 893s would work best space-wise.
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post #20 of 26 Old 10-02-2017, 11:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
Don?t make the mistake of trying to cram to much speaker into too little of a space. Any of the speakers your considering are way too much firepower. Choose a speaker that fits the space. Lol even though I did it.
Well it fits fine without the masking panels... Haha, aren't you building 1099s now too though?? But yeah, the 893s would work best space-wise.
Yeah, I am building 1099s. I got to take a listen to one and it is awesome. If 893s fit good, I would go with them. You won?t be disappointed.
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Yeah, I am building 1099s. I got to take a listen to one and it is awesome. If 893s fit good, I would go with them. You won?t be disappointed.
I guess I just want to get my "forever" speaker now, rather than getting an intermediate speaker. Would you consider the 893s a big improvement over my existing Ascends? (If you're familiar with them). They still would have some space constraint issues of their own though.

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post #22 of 26 Old 10-03-2017, 05:10 AM
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Yeah, I am building 1099s. I got to take a listen to one and it is awesome. If 893s fit good, I would go with them. You won?t be disappointed.
I guess I just want to get my "forever" speaker now, rather than getting an intermediate speaker. Would you consider the 893s a big improvement over my existing Ascends? (If you're familiar with them). They still would have some space constraint issues of their own though.
If your planning on a forever speaker, and you will be eventually moving your equipment into a different room, go for it. They won?t measure perfect, but they will sound awesome. The titans I mean. I watched Skyfall last night, and every time I see a movie, I love the titans more.
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post #23 of 26 Old 10-07-2017, 06:10 PM - Thread Starter
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If your planning on a forever speaker, and you will be eventually moving your equipment into a different room, go for it. They won?t measure perfect, but they will sound awesome. The titans I mean. I watched Skyfall last night, and every time I see a movie, I love the titans more.
How far back do you sit from your Titans? I want to make sure I'm far-field enough that the sounds from each driver are blended and I don't notice any separation. I would be about 11 ft back.

Also, what do you mean by measuring perfect? Are you referring to in-room measurements? The provided on-axis frequency response plot and the polar response plot look pretty good.
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post #24 of 26 Old 10-07-2017, 07:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jk7.2 View Post
If your planning on a forever speaker, and you will be eventually moving your equipment into a different room, go for it. They won?t measure perfect, but they will sound awesome. The titans I mean. I watched Skyfall last night, and every time I see a movie, I love the titans more.
How far back do you sit from your Titans? I want to make sure I'm far-field enough that the sounds from each driver are blended and I don't notice any separation. I would be about 11 ft back.

Also, what do you mean by measuring perfect? Are you referring to in-room measurements? The provided on-axis frequency response plot and the polar response plot look pretty good.
I sit right at 10 feet from the screen. I have not noticed any separation wrt the different drivers in a single speaker. And yes I am talking about in room measurements. Being so close to the side walls with the L and R speakers you will have reflections/ cancellations at certain frequencies. Only known by measuring.
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post #25 of 26 Old 10-08-2017, 09:24 AM
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If I were you I'd consider changing the subwoofer set up you drew out. You've got around 50cuft taken up in the front using four PA460's. You could get similar or better performance in half that size and not need to worry about the big enclosures causing problems when aiming the speakers. If the budget doesn't allow for two more expensive subwoofers, build one now, and get the other later.
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post #26 of 26 Old 10-08-2017, 02:59 PM - Thread Starter
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If I were you I'd consider changing the subwoofer set up you drew out. You've got around 50cuft taken up in the front using four PA460's. You could get similar or better performance in half that size and not need to worry about the big enclosures causing problems when aiming the speakers. If the budget doesn't allow for two more expensive subwoofers, build one now, and get the other later.
Yes, I think that's the route I'm going to go. The Dayton RSS460HO 18" models much better in smaller enclosures, so two of those would fit in more easily between the Titans. Plus the PA460s would be redundant with the Titans for mid-bass performance anyway. I'm going for space efficiency more than I'm going for cost efficiency.
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