contemplating building some studio monitor style speakers. your opinions/ideas - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 55 Old 08-13-2006, 10:48 AM - Thread Starter
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well, i began by posting up a thread in the speakers section seeking opinions on some jbl rm10 studio bookshelfs. here they are, http://www.jbl.com/home/products/pro...A&cat=&ser=MON . i guess they aren't very well known or whatever as i got no responses thus far, no worries.

i like this style of speaker. it's something large that i can ceiling mount and doesnt take up floor space like a floorstander w/ 10" would. after trying to browse ebay for some appropriate surrounds that i thought might mate well with these i didn't really see much. i thought about getting 5 of the rm10's, but that just seems like a bit of overkill for the surrounds and i would really rather have a smaller cabinet in the rear, maybe containing a 8" or so.

anyhow, i began to wonder if i could merely build something like these for the same/less money that i could outright buy them for which is $126/each. plus, this way i could timbre match all the speakers rather than mixing matching the LCR and surrounds and even possibly use better drivers.

this would be my first build of any type of main speakers. i've built a couple subs and am in the process of doing so now. but from what i gather building subs and mains/surrounds are two different ballgames. i would probably just stick with the 2-way design and maybe the same basic box shape as the jbls, just depends on what kind of info/ideas i get from you guys.

this is just a thought as i am trying to weigh out my options to do as we all do, obtain the best sound for our budget.

thanks guys

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post #2 of 55 Old 08-15-2006, 01:54 PM
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The budget is the tough part, IMO. Unless you just forget about all the nickel-dimeing that happens during and after the build...like I do. A two-way main is a tough build; the selection of the drivers is critical and very likely expensive. See if you can budget $40 for a 6.5 midbass driver, and $30 for a tweeter. The crossover should likely fall in the range of $30 - $50, and the cabinet is what you make of it.

A two-way design is tough because the drivers have to handle extended freq ranges. This puts more emphasis on the quality and complexity of the crossover network. You should also have a subwoofer to use with a build like this, and the mains have to blend well with it.

Unless you have a keen interest in building speakers in general, and also want to surpass the quality of those $126 speakers you mentioned, just buy the store models. Your DIY speakers should reflect not only your passion for the project, but should also be a part of your personality.
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post #3 of 55 Old 08-15-2006, 02:02 PM
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Reconsider also your desire to ceiling-mount your mains. Instead, look at building or buying stands for these. The mains I'm using for both movies and music can be seen on page 4 of the gallery; I built them extra tall so that the mids/highs are at ear level and closer to the center channel height. I used 3-way drivers so that each have an easy go at it in their respective freq ranges, and my crossover design was inherently easy because of these factors. The largest of this 3-way design is only a 6.5 driver, so the subwoofer is essential with both movie and music sources.
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post #4 of 55 Old 08-15-2006, 02:39 PM
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I recommend these: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=13154

Derek is a member here as well. He built a "budget" pair of Modula MTs (http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=21000) for at or just below $250, I believe.

They would be great studio-monitor style speakers. Accurate, transparent, neutral...you know the drill.
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post #5 of 55 Old 08-16-2006, 07:27 PM - Thread Starter
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thanks guys. i know that speakers set at ear level and all would be optimal. but, despite my not minding large speakers and even liking floorstanders, i'm pretty set on having wall/ceiling mounted ones in order to keep my floorspace and also, i sometimes let my husky indoors and don't want her knocking any thing over or chewing on/damaging them.

(edit) - the modula's look pretty nice, but how would they stack up against the jbls? think the jbl's are worth what they are asking and your opinion on whether or not they would sound good? i've owned klipsch klf-10's and some older infinity studio monitors (15" version), would i be looking at sound similar to either of those, cause i liked them both well.

thanks again

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post #6 of 55 Old 08-17-2006, 10:22 PM
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The Exodus LCR kits will have the high-output, can handle 800+ watts per channel with no compression, 3-way design to reach down in low 20Hz, closer to JBL monitor speakers.
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post #7 of 55 Old 08-17-2006, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremacyug View Post

thanks guys. i know that speakers set at ear level and all would be optimal. but, despite my not minding large speakers and even liking floorstanders, i'm pretty set on having wall/ceiling mounted ones in order to keep my floorspace and also, i sometimes let my husky indoors and don't want her knocking any thing over or chewing on/damaging them.

(edit) - the modula's look pretty nice, but how would they stack up against the jbls? think the jbl's are worth what they are asking and your opinion on whether or not they would sound good? i've owned klipsch klf-10's and some older infinity studio monitors (15" version), would i be looking at sound similar to either of those, cause i liked them both well.

thanks again

I think the Modulas would (most likely) have a more accurate, clean, neutral, distortion free sound.

The sound would be, most likely, better than those two speakers (but that depends on what kind of sound you like).

You could put the MTs on the wall, sure. You could just switch the design up a bit, and front-port them.
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post #8 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 06:23 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by algaray View Post

The Exodus LCR kits will have the high-output, can handle 800+ watts per channel with no compression, 3-way design to reach down in low 20Hz, closer to JBL monitor speakers.

nice speakers, but for the price of one i could have 3 of the jbls.

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post #9 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 09:00 PM - Thread Starter
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ok, considering the tower speaker idea. i suppose i'll just drop kick my dog if she even looks at them wrong.

anyhow, i thought about a slim tower design (or even front firing so that the LCR would look the same) utilizing a 10" eclipse sw6103.4 driver, which can be had off ebay for $55 shipped/ea. the eclipse would match my sub i'm building perfectly and i think it would be sufficient. i'm thinking a 3 way design using dayton 5.25" aluminum drivers for mid's (not sure yet as to how many in each tower) and a eminece apt-150 horn tweeter (i like klipsch speakers). now, i've never built full range speakers and this selection of drivers may quickly reveal that. i'm just guessing.

i want something pleasing to the eye and would consider your recommendations. it doesn't have to even utilize a 10" driver, i just saw the eclipse's on ebay. i like the looks of the towers that have drivers from head to toe, so intemidating looking.

i'm looking to give a go at a LCR setup right now, i have some temp surrounds i can use until i build some better ones.

so, if you don't mind, shoot me your ideas. budget wise, i'd say $500 for the components, don't bother considering the mdf, paint, screws, those sort of things. this would be something that i progressively built as time allowed.

thanks fellas

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post #10 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 09:18 PM
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$500 for the components...is that for a pair of speakers, or the center too?

I would not recommend building a speaker, especially a 3-way, without any speaker designing experience. Use a respected design.

There is no need to "match" your speaker woofers to your subwoofer.

Check out HTGuide (http://www.htguide.com/forum/forumdisplay.php4?f=39).

You could build the NataliePs in a fairly slim tower. The 3-way towers are in the $500 range for components/parts.
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post #11 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 09:20 PM
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Quote:


i guess they aren't very well known or whatever as i got no responses thus far, no worries.

Response on the way...


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Dual 3"-cone tweeters

Umm... comb-filtering anyone?

They're using a stage monitor for live performances as a home speaker? I would have to say, stay away from these. Note they call them the "ROCK MONITOR SERIES."

Moniters are designed to focus sound on individual performers so they can hear themselves in a large venue. They are in no way meant for accurate stereo sound reproduction. It also looks like they have the tweeters angled away from one another. These will not work as mains.

If you just want sound to fill a room, they will do fine. They would work great as the surrounds in a 5.1 setup. As stereo mains they fall flat on there face. They will have zero presence and imaging.

Your new sub deserves better.
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post #12 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 09:51 PM - Thread Starter
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nah, was hoping to go for LCR out of the $500, of coarse that's give or take some. heck my sub started out as a ~$300 idea and i'll end up ~$600 into it. as to the matching, i didnt mean tonally or anything like that, simply athstectically (how in the hates do you spell that word?)

soho, i saw the 3" tweeters and wondered bout that. recently read an article bout the crappiness of bose. in the article they told what size drivers are idea for highs/mids/lows. i didn't recall 3" being in that range for highs and if it was it was to the utter extreme. but, i figured jbl knew more than i, so i was willing to consider them.

i had no intention of just building a box and slapping some speakers in there. thats why i was looking to find out if you guys had any box designs/driver recommendations in mind. i've seen the natalie p's and they dont tickle my fancy much. any other ideas? i know there is a certain amount of science and forthought that goes into a design, but at the same time it can also be overcomplicated (in my opinion). i mean, i'm not rocketing a man to the moon, just building some speakers.

for instance, i just like the looks of the polk (can't think of model number) speakers that have four 6.5" drivers on the front and a tweeter squeezed in there somewhere. something similar to that would be great and i cant see how it would cost a fortune when looking at PE i see what appear to be decent quality drivers for pretty cheap. i.e. - http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=295-305 <------ 10 or 12 of those (~$200) three x-overs ($120), three tweeters(~60-$100, maybe more, just depends), cabinet, paint, wire, binding post and it seems like i should be pretty close to a functional speaker. perhaps i'm missing something. i can't imagine polk using drivers that are much, if any better than those daytons. just seems like i should be able to build three towers that would yield polk or klipsch, or whatever quality for somewhere in the neighborhood of $500. i realize that a box design can make or break the drivers, which is where you guys would come into play. i wouldn't be looking for anything fancy, just your typical square enclosure.

anyhow, thanks for the responses.

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post #13 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 09:54 PM
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http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/

What about those? Should run you about $450-500 for LCR. Or you could build 3 Modula MTs for LCR as well.
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post #14 of 55 Old 08-18-2006, 10:46 PM
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Yeah, those RS150s would be a good idea as well. I had almost forgotten about them.

Edit: What you have to understand, is that xover design is very important...and the good DIY designs don't skimp on the crossover. Why do you like the idea of "four 6.5" drivers and a tweeter"? Do you want good speakers or not?

Why don't you like the NataliePs? Have something against MTMs?

Things might seem "overcomplicated" sometimes, because building good speakers is complicated, if you have no experience designing a proper speaker. You have to ask yourself: "What do I want out of my speakers?"

You shouldn't be limiting yourself to any particular design unless you have a good reason to, IMO.
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post #15 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 11:10 AM
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noremacyug, just answering your other thread, here. Building great LCRs for around $500 total is going to be very hard. L and R sure, but a Center too is pushing it. At this price range I would be looking at the internet dealer speakers. At this price range they are very competitive with DIY. Unless you just want the challenge.
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post #16 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 01:40 PM
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At this price range they are very competitive with DIY. Unless you just want the challenge.

Not really.
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post #17 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 01:56 PM
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Not really.

Why do you say this? When including drivers, wood, quality crossover parts, and the other odds and ends. My estimate is around $300 per speaker (at least) for a quality MTM. Which puts this in the $900-1000 range. At the $500 range for three speakers we are talking about PE DIY type designs, the internet dealers will beat or at least equal DIY at this price range. (the $500 and lower range that is.)
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post #18 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

Why do you say this? When including drivers, wood, quality crossover parts, and the other odds and ends. My estimate is around $300 per speaker for a quality MTM. Which puts this in the $900-1000 range. At the $500 range for three speakers we are talking about PE DIY type designs, the internet dealers will beat or at least equal DIY at this price range.

What do you consider quality crossover components? In my Modula MTs I used metallized polypropylene capacitors and air core / steel laminate core inductors (not the same as iron core). And it cost about $250 total.
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post #19 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

Why do you say this? When including drivers, wood, quality crossover parts, and the other odds and ends. My estimate is around $300 per speaker (at least) for a quality MTM. Which puts this in the $900-1000 range. At the $500 range for three speakers we are talking about PE DIY type designs, the internet dealers will beat or at least equal DIY at this price range.

Well you are just using an incorrect budget. Derek built his Modula MTs for less than $250, total, including wood, crossover parts, and odds/ends.

Exocer built his Natalie Ps for ~$500/pair (it might have been a bit less, or a bit more) including everything.

Both of those designs are far better than whatever "PE DIY type designs" that you are talking about.

And no, they won't. K (Ryan) liked Chris' RS150 MTMs more than his Ascend 340s. The RS150s can be built for less than the 340s, IIRC.
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post #20 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derekbannatyne View Post

What do you consider quality crossover components? In my Modula MTs I used metallized polypropylene capacitors and air core / steel laminate core inductors (not the same as iron core). And it cost about $250 total.

I don't understand the "quality" crossover components bit. The modulas probably have close to 2x the crossover components that most <$500 2-way bookshelves have.
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post #21 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Well you are just using an incorrect budget. Derek built his Modula MTs for less than $250, total, including wood, crossover parts, and odds/ends.

Exocer built his Natalie Ps for ~$500/pair (it might have been a bit less, or a bit more) including everything.

Both of those designs are far better than whatever "PE DIY type designs" that you are talking about.

And no, they won't. K (Ryan) liked Chris' RS150 MTMs more than his Ascend 340s. The RS150s can be built for less than the 340s, IIRC.

Yep the Ascend 340s cost $594 shipped, while the RS150 MTMs are around $300 before wood and finish.
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post #22 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:26 PM
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What do you consider quality crossover components?

Polypropylene film and tin foil caps for the series caps in the tweeter circuit, metallized polypropylene caps for everything else. 14g air core inductors only. Same as everyone else.

Quote:


In my Modula MTs

I said MTM. The OP is building a killer sub, he needs the extra headroom an MTM or better can provide.

Quote:


Well you are just using an incorrect budget

No, not really.

Quote:


Exocer built his Natalie Ps for ~$500/pair (it might have been a bit less, or a bit more) including everything.

Pair yes, three no.

Quote:


Yep the Ascend 340s cost $594 shipped

Are they the only internet direct speakers?

What is the problem here?
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post #23 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:29 PM
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Ok, show me some ID MTMs that could match the CJD RS150 MTMs or Natalie Ps, for the money.

And sure, using quality crossover components is nice, but when these DIY designs already have a better crossover designs to begin with, that have more components, using "high quality" components is less of an issue (at least for the budget minded folk).

And yes, your budget is incorrect, because it assumes (for no reason) that a quality DIY MTM costs $300/each. Hell, Chasw98 built these for less than $700/pr, including everything.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8129604

I just looked it up, and Exocer spent only $460 total, for his pair of Natalie Ps. One could easily build 3 of those for under $700. I don't know of any ID MTM that would match those 3 for $700.
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post #24 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:42 PM
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noremacyug, I wish you well. Hope you find something to satisfy you.

As for everyone else I am done with this topic. I'm sorry you think you are the only ones to have ever built a pair of NatPs or ModMTs, or that you know everyone who has.

Skimping on the quality parts Jon advises is like ordering a Mustang with a six cylinder. As far as I'm concerned. What's the point?

I'm out.
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post #25 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 02:48 PM
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What the hell...come on man. If you can't defend your claims, your opinion is invalid.

Exocer didn't skimp out on his Natalie P parts, and Chas didn't skimp out on his 3-ways either. Derek used some buyout caps and what not, but to compare using some cheaper crossover parts to a V8 Mustang vs a V6 Mustange is friggin' ludicrous, and you know it.

What a joke. At least throw me a bone here...give me some examples of ID products that are competitive for the price or less. Afterall, that is the claim you made earlier:

Quote:


Building great LCRs for around $500 total is going to be very hard. L and R sure, but a Center too is pushing it. At this price range I would be looking at the internet dealer speakers. At this price range they are very competitive with DIY. Unless you just want the challenge.

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post #26 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 03:09 PM
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Well In my case I could've easily pulled the natalie P's off with $400 a pair. I went with more expensive plywood, mills resistors (which are way more expensive than dayton resisters sometimes x3 the price), and solen capacitors. Wood came in at $60, the same amount of MDF would've been $24 at HD, and the crossovers would've been anywhere from $10-15 cheaper had I gone with the dayton components (not that they're poor quality, i just didn't want to regret getting the cheaper parts later ).

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

My Natalie P project
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post #27 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 03:10 PM
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Nice. I didn't know you used even higher quality components, and still came out at $460 total.
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post #28 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 03:23 PM
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for the sake of this post I re-did the BOM with the cheapest possible components for two speakers.

004-20 Yes DAYTON DNR-20 20 OHM 10W NON-INDUCTIVE .. $1.25 $2.50
004-6 Yes DAYTON DNR-6.0 6 OHM 10W NON-INDUCTIVE .. $1.25 $2.50
027-402 Yes DAYTON DMPC-0.22 .22uF-250V POLYPROPYLE .. $0.78 $1.56
027-410 Yes DAYTON DMPC-1.0 1.0uF-250V POLYPROPYLEN .. $1.15 $2.30
027-414 Yes DAYTON DMPC-2.0 2.0uF-250V POLYPROPYLEN .. $1.52 $3.04
027-418 Yes DAYTON DMPC-3.0 3.0uF-250V POLYPROPYLEN .. $1.67 $3.34
027-428 Yes DAYTON DMPC-10 10uF-250V POLYPROPYLENE .. $3.15 $6.30
027-430 Yes DAYTON DMPC-12 12uF-250V POLYPROPYLENE .. $3.55 $7.10
027-432 Yes DAYTON DMPC-15 15uF-250V POLYPROPYLENE .. $4.10 $16.40
027-438 Yes DAYTON DMPC-25 25uF-250V POLYPROPYLENE .. $5.90 $11.80
004-.51 Yes DAYTON DNR-0.51 .51 OHM 10W NON-INDUCTI .. $1.25 $2.50
255-034 Yes JANTZEN .45mH 20 GA AIR CORE INDUCTOR .. $3.35 $6.70
255-050 Yes JANTZEN 1.20mH 20 GA AIR CORE INDUCTOR .. $5.05 $10.10
255-400 Yes JANTZEN .20mH 15 GA AIR CORE INDUCTOR .. $6.10 $12.20
Subtotal: $88.34

My BOM when complete came in at 150.43

I have no intention to start an argument with this. $500 for a DIY LCR? Probably possible if going with the cheapest components. In fact most of the people i've seen did go with the cheapest BOM and are delighted by the sound of their Natalie P's I can't wait for the center to be designed..

Only time will tell what the future holds...so until then JAM LIKE THERES NO TOMORROW!
-Rob

My Natalie P project
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post #29 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 03:49 PM
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Here is the total bill for two NatPs built to the letter. Minus the enclosure, and wire.
It comes to $422.42. The PE box is $99.97, a custom enclosures cost will vary. This is without the recommended film and foil caps.

The OP wants to build LCRs, with a budget of $500 not including the enclosures. Even if he built 3 NatP's he won't make his budget. Also the NatP is not a center. To get a matching center he would need to build the Modula MTM Center. Have you priced that one out? It makes the NatPs look cheap.

I am not knocking DIY. Every speaker in my HT is DIY. At the bargain end though DIY isn't always the best way to go for everyone. Why are you trying to get the OP to go over his budget, or skimp on things to meet it?

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If you can't defend your claims, your opinion is invalid.

I am sorry but I have answered everything up post 22. I am done.
LL
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post #30 of 55 Old 08-19-2006, 04:01 PM
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He may not be able to build the Natalie P/Modula MTM LCRs, but he can still build CJD's RS150 MTMs with that budget.
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