noremacyug's sub (eclipse SW8200) - Page 4 - AVS Forum
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post #91 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 06:49 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah, that was my other concern. grrrrr, decisions, decisions. i'm wondering if two would give me what i want. or if i should just get a couple of dayton 15's and stick em in a couple sonotube enclosures or big mdf enclosure. i was also looking at the tc sounds lms 4000 15", the tc2000 15", or the tc3000 15".

i'm just not sure which way to go here.

you said you wouldnt recommend the behringer, what amps do you know of that would handle the 4ohm load in bridged or stereo mode? how is the crown powerbase pb3?

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post #92 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 06:54 PM
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I wouldn't recommend the behringer for 4ohm bridged connections, at +100db levels. It is great for 4ohm stereo use.

Never used a crown powerbase pb3.
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post #93 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 07:03 PM - Thread Starter
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well, in any event this crest is not up to the task at all. i'm sitting here listening to music and i have to turn the sub down to next to nothing do to the amp kicking out all the time. and i'm not even listening and super loud levels, just above average.

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post #94 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 07:44 PM
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i'm sitting here listening to music and i have to turn the sub down to next to nothing do to the amp kicking out all the time

Is this bridged or stereo?
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post #95 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 07:45 PM - Thread Starter
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the sub is sorta growing on me. still not the levels i want, but the bass is nice and clean. pondering hard on building a duplicate and ordering a ep2500. goodbye another $600.

it's in bridged mode. when i put it in stereo, the quality seems to suffer.

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post #96 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 07:46 PM
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post #97 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 07:48 PM - Thread Starter
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i won't last a week. especially if the amp won't hold. i wont be able to watch or listen to anything.

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post #98 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 07:51 PM
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Aye....I think you just need HQ amplification. That driver is quality, and like Exocer said earlier in this thread..."Believe me, the way that Vc is designed, it can really chew up power like its candy!"
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post #99 of 186 Old 08-23-2006, 08:12 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by Willd View Post

Aye....I think you just need HQ amplification. That driver is quality, and like Exocer said earlier in this thread..."Believe me, the way that Vc is designed, it can really chew up power like its candy!"

yeah, i deffinately believe that. i notice quite a difference when i switch to stereo and hook it to one channel. i'd like to find a good amp that would handle this driver (or others should i change) in bridged mode and then be plenty powerful enough to run a second twin to this one (or others) should i decide to go that route. soho advises against the ep2500 for a 4ohm bridged load. but i was wondering that since it has all that headroom if running that amp at 1/2 or 3/4 it would maintain itself without kicking out. then, in the event i build a second sub, do you think 650x2@4ohm would be enough to handle whatever.

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post #100 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 03:29 PM
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pro amps work best when the gains are wide open. I'm under the impression they aren't really gain circuits in the same sense as a volume control or gain on a plate amp, but more signal attenuators.

If my understanding is correct, you're kind of fighting yourself by limiting the "gain" setting on the Crown and then turning it to 11 on your receiver. For the sake of argument, trying recalibrating with the amp gains at max and then see what happens.

Then go build an 8 ft^3 box tuned to 15 hz and drop the Eclipse into that. WinISD says 111db @ 20hz with 900 watts vs. 104db for your sealed cabinet.
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post #101 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 04:00 PM
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Riverwolf, that's how we used to run them. I have never actually owned the gear myself so I can't say for sure. But I believe you are exactly right.
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post #102 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 04:29 PM
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Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't pro amps work best when the gains are wide open. I'm under the impression they aren't really gain circuits in the same sense as a volume control or gain on a plate amp, but more signal attenuators.

All amp "gains" work the same, they are attenuators. Say the amp wants a 1.23 volt 0db signal and it's getting a 1.5v 0 db signal, you have to engage the attenuator to lower the signal to 1.23v. If you don't the amp can be overdriven, and damaged by the hot signal. You only want to turn them wide open when the input signal is not high enough to drive the amp fully.
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post #103 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 04:54 PM
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Soho,

Running a power amp less than wide open increases the chances of clipping, which is how most damage to speakers is done in the pro audio world. With those sorts of sources, you're probably not going to fry a voice coil by sending it too much current, but you may kill a tweeter by sending it a clipped signal. So generally, people there run the amps wide open. I understand your point; I'm just saying that's what the thinking is there.
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post #104 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 05:02 PM
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Running a power amp less than wide open increases the chances of clipping

It doesn't work that way. Full gain is 0 attenuation. Anything other than full is limiting the amp which further reduces the chances of the amp causing a clipped signal.

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but you may kill a tweeter by sending it a clipped signal

You have to overdrive an amp to get it to clip.

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I'm just saying that's what the thinking is there

It is incorrect.
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post #105 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 05:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

It doesn't work that way. Full gain is 0 attenuation. Anything other than full is limiting the amp which further reduces the chances of the amp causing a clipped signal.

You have to overdrive an amp to get it to clip.

It is incorrect.

You forgot the human factor. If the amp is too low, everything before it gets pushed up. Thus clipping, earlier in the system. If the amp is wide open, you do risk sending too much current to the speakers, but this is the lesser of two evils.

I am always surprised when someone recommends an amp-limited system here, since in pro audio it's exactly the opposite. You tend to think that having a bit of extra power will preserve your system.
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post #106 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 05:23 PM - Thread Starter
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would that keep the amp from kicking out though? as it is kicking out at even less than half gain.

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post #107 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 05:25 PM
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You forgot the human factor.

That would be ignorance.

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If the amp is too low, everything before it gets pushed up. Thus clipping.

No, it's about balance.

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If the amp is wide open, you do risk sending too much current to the speakers, but this is the lesser of two evils.

This doesn't make sense.
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post #108 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 05:31 PM
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would that keep the amp from kicking out though? as it is kicking out at even less than half gain.

No. You have already tried this.
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yeah, i've tried maximum gain on the crest and low output on the lfe of the reciever, visa versa and then a medium. it was set on +10db on the reciever and then the 1/5 on the crest. i just bumped the crest up to 1/2 and recalibrated the reciever which changed to -5db.

The amp can't handle the strain the driver is putting on it.
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post #109 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 05:41 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

No. You have already tried this.
The amp can't handle the strain the driver is putting on it.

thought so. so, do you guys have some recommendations of quality amps that will handle a 4ohm or lower load while bridged?

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post #110 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:03 PM
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QSC RMX series or better
Crown XLS series or better.. umm K2

I have heard Carvin is good, ask SteveC.

The Behringer's will work, they are QSC RMX clones. Only with a smaller toroid. It will kill the amp you have now. It just works to hard with 2ohm loads for my tastes.
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post #111 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremacyug View Post

would that keep the amp from kicking out though? as it is kicking out at even less than half gain.

Most likely it's not the issue. I think you just need a more powerful amp.
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post #112 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:08 PM
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

That would be ignorance.

No, it's about balance.

This doesn't make sense.

I'm going to drop this, but you've clearly never run live sound.
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post #113 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:10 PM
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I'm going to drop this, but you've clearly never run live sound.

You are wrong on that account as well. +12 years.
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post #114 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:11 PM
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Then why on earth are we disagreeing? This is just "err on the side of caution" stuff.
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post #115 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

QSC RMX series or better
Crown XLS series or better.. umm K2

I have heard Carvin is good, as SteveC.

The Behringer's will work, they are QSC RMX clones. Only with a smaller toroid. It will kill the amp you have now. It just works to hard with 2ohm loads for my tastes.

But the amp wouldn't be seeing a 2ohm load, with this driver. Its DCR is 3ohms, correct?
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post #116 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 06:39 PM
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But the amp wouldn't be seeing a 2ohm load, with this driver. Its DCR is 3ohms, correct?

Bridged it would be seeing a 1.5ohm load on each channel. That is the problem.
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post #117 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 07:00 PM
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

Bridged it would be seeing a 1.5ohm load on each channel. That is the problem.

His driver has one voice coil. The amp would be seeing ~3ohms, bridged.
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post #118 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 07:14 PM
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In bridged mode both channels are used in parallel. Each channel gets half the load. So if a 3 ohm speaker is connected channel 1 sees 1.5ohm and channel two also sees a 1.5ohm load.

EDIT: Technically the impedance isn't split. The current draw is just the same as it would be with stereo 1.5ohm speakers. Channel 1 delivers all the pos., and channel 2 delivers all the neg.
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post #119 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 07:17 PM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd View Post

His driver has one voice coil. The amp would be seeing ~3ohms, bridged.

right, but soho mentioned eariler that when you bridge the amp, you are more or less runing each seperate channel in series. thus, the 3ohm load would be divided between each channel's amp giving you 1.5ohm on each channel. at least that's the way i understand it. i could very well be very wrong.

(edit)- i'm too slow. and i guess it's parallel rather than series. here's spec sheet on crowns cl1 amp. the chart on the bottom of the page supports this statement (at least it looks to, to me) as it shows the specs for a 2ohmx2 load as being the same as a 4ohmx1 load. http://www.crownaudio.com/pdf/legacy/131515.pdf

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post #120 of 186 Old 08-24-2006, 07:32 PM
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I'll be honest, I've never heard of this phenomenon.
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