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post #31 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:18 AM - Thread Starter
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hey jon is this true?

http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-14.php3

from what it says the high end 6s that are $150 are in..
Duntech PCL25 ($1.350/pr)
Duntech Emerald ($4,715/pr)

the high end midranges are in..
Morel Renaissance Enigma ($1,800/pr)

the high end tweeters are in..
Duntech PCL25 ($1,350/pr)
Duntech Emerald ($4,715/pr)
Morel Renaissance Prelude ($1,695/pr)
Morel Renaissance Enigma ($1,800/pr)
Wilmslow Sonor ($5,174/pr)


so from the looks of it I picked out a pretty friggen awesomely good system, I just need to find someone else whos done it

If I bought the Duntech Emerald ($5000 a pair)...I would be buying what I might make...cooool
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post #32 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
SO - here are my options -

MOREL MW -167 6" Neodymium $150.00 (5)
MOREL MDM -55 Soft Dome, Neodymium $73.00 (5)
MOREL MDT -33 Soft Dome, Double Magnet (tweeter) $126.00 (5)
MOREL MW -114S 4" Neodymium $108.00 (4)

or

MOREL MW-164-8 6" WOOFER $102 (5)
MOREL MDM -55 Soft Dome, Neodymium $73.00 (5)
MOREL MDT-32 Soft Dome, 110mm Flange $62.00 (5)
MOREL MW -113 4" DPC Cone $72.00 (4)

(maybe for sub?) MOREL MW -1077 10" Neodymium $180.00

Speakers
Mains - 1 tweeter/1 midrange/1 midbass/1 woofers
Surrounds - 1 tweeter/1 midrange/1 midbass/1 woofer
Center - 1 tweeter/1 midranges/1 woofer

Now - comparing to Polk LSI (4-lsi 15s + a LSI center) - would cost me $2500 on the nose. This high end would cost $2200 w/out crossovers, wiring, cabinets..medium end would cost $1460 w/out crossovers, wiring, cabinets..I haven't heard polk no one sells it around here I'm going off of reviews and what people say..I wish someone who had some experience with morel and lsis would comment. I've heard awesome things about morel though.


OK, here we go...

On your driver selection, if you are using a ~2" dome midrange, you should have a larger "midbass" than 4". 5.5" + would be a better choice. Then you could use a large woofer (10"+), or a pair of smaller ones (7-8"), for more bass. If you want the speaker to have a really thin enclosure, you could just use a side firing woofer for <150Hz or so. Then you could easily go to a 12" woofer. Unfortunately, though, all this is really beside the point.

You could put together a bunch of drivers by a company you have "heard awesome things about" and end up with a very bad sounding speaker, no matter how much you spend.

The reason is because there are a lot of things that you need to do in order to design a good sounding crossover for a specfic combination of drivers. For instance, you need to hook each driver up to a signal generator and measure what kind of frequency response, distortion (many different kinds), and radiation pattern it has. You also need to put the high frequency drivers into a baffle that is the same shape as the one you want to use in the final enclosure and measure the effects of diffraction for those drivers at those positions on that exact baffle. There is software that can help with that last, but you still should verify with actual testing.

Once you have all this information (and a bunch of other stuff, in all likelyhood), you design a crossover network with the right crossover points and slopes as well as various compensation circuits for all the different issues you discovered in testing for each of the drivers.

Additionally, you decided on a 4-way system. Let me point out something. A good 2-way design will commonly have a crossover cost of ~$45 per speaker. A 3-way will commonly have a cost of more like $100 per speaker. A 4-way could double that again. So, a pair of 4-way mains could have a total of $350-$400 in crossover parts for the pair. That is a lot.

Because of all of this (driver selection knowledge, measurement equipment needed, design software needed, cost of 4-way system), you need to pick a predesigned driver/crossover combination off one of the many sites with DIY projects. Another source that has not yet been mentioned is www.selahaudio.com. Rick has "kit" versions of many of his speaker designs that are available with premade crossovers, along with all the drivers you need and enclosure plans.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
-Vernon Sanders Law
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post #33 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:32 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
hey jon is this true?

http://ldsg.snippets.org/sect-14.php3

...

so from the looks of it I picked out a pretty friggen awesomely good system, I just need to find someone else whos done it

If I bought the Duntech Emerald ($5000 a pair)...I would be buying what I might make...cooool

Yes, that is true, as of when it was posted. I see the last update was in 2004, so some things might have changed on any models still in production.

You would only be buying the "friggen awesomely good" drivers of the Duntech Emerald, however. See my response, above. What you have speced out is not a "system", any more than an engine, transmission, wheels, and tires are a car.

For many reasons, for you to reproduce the actual finished performance of the Everard speakers, you would need to spend a whole lot of money on test equipment, and even more money and time on design by "trial and error".

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
-Vernon Sanders Law
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post #34 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:33 AM - Thread Starter
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jonathanb3478
OK, here we go...

On your driver selection, if you are using a ~2" dome midrange, you should have a larger "midbass" than 4". 5.5" + would be a better choice. Then you could use a large woofer (10"+), or a pair of smaller ones (7-8"), for more bass. If you want the speaker to have a really thin enclosure, you could just use a side firing woofer for <150Hz or so. Then you could easily go to a 12" woofer. Unfortunately, though, all this is really beside the point.

You could put together a bunch of drivers by a company you have "heard awesome things about" and end up with a very bad sounding speaker, no matter how much you spend.

The reason is because there are a lot of things that you need to do in order to design a good sounding crossover for a specfic combination of drivers. For instance, you need to hook each driver up to a signal generator and measure what kind of frequency response, distortion (many different kinds), and radiation pattern it has. You also need to put the high frequency drivers into a baffle that is the same shape as the one you want to use in the final enclosure and measure the effects of diffraction for those drivers at those positions on that exact baffle. There is software that can help with that last, but you still should verify with actual testing.

Once you have all this information (and a bunch of other stuff, in all likelyhood), you design a crossover network with the right crossover points and slopes as well as various compensation circuits for all the different issues you discovered in testing for each of the drivers.

Additionally, you decided on a 4-way system. Let me point out something. A good 2-way design will commonly have a crossover cost of ~$45 per speaker. A 3-way will commonly have a cost of more like $100 per speaker. A 4-way could double that again. So, a pair of 4-way mains could have a $350-$400 crossover.

Because of all of this (driver selection knowledge, measurement equipment needed, design software needed, cost of 4-way system), you need to pick a predesigned driver/crossover combination off one of the many sites with DIY projects. Another source that has not yet been mentioned is www.selahaudio.com. Rick has "kit" versions of many of his speaker designs that are available with premade crossovers, along with all the drivers you need and enclosure plans.
Interesting...hrm...so for a 4-way system, I have to spend $400 for crossovers? That doesn't seem right..that means everyone would be spending $800 on top of what they already are spending in every single system that wants 2 speakers to be 4-way...let alone more then 2?
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post #35 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
Interesting...hrm...so for a 4-way system, I have to spend $400 for crossovers? That doesn't seem right..that means everyone would be spending $800 on top of what they already are spending in every single system that wants 2 speakers to be 4-way...let alone more then 2?
My estimate for a pair of crossovers for a 4-way pair of speakers is $350 - $400. Not each speaker. It pretty much doubles as you move from 2 to 3 to 4-way.

2-way: $45/speaker ($90/pair)
3-way: $100/speaker ($200/pair)
4-way: $175-200/speaker ($350-400/pair)

Certainly a designer could make a 4-way crossover with a small enough part count to shrink the cost, but the performance of the system would suffer.

Oh, and if you want the "audiophile" style "film and foil" capacitors and copper foil inductors, you could double to quadrupole the above cost for the finished crossovers.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
-Vernon Sanders Law
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post #36 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:37 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jonathanb3478
My estimate for a pair of crossovers for a 4-way pair of speakers is $350 - $400. Not each speaker. It pretty much doubles as you move from 2 to 3 to 4-way.

2-way: $45/speaker ($90/pair)
3-way: $100/speaker ($200/pair)
4-way: $175-200/speaker ($350-400/pair)
darn thats spenndyy..so DIY kits, they sell you everything except the cabinets?
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post #37 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
darn thats spenndyy..so DIY kits, they sell you everything except the cabinets?
And some hardware, perhaps. Things like port tubes and enclosure spikes might not be included. Sometimes though the cabinets are included. You would need to check specifics of the kit you are interested in.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
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post #38 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 05:47 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jonathanb3478
And some hardware, perhaps. Things like port tubes and enclosure spikes might not be included. Sometimes though, the cabinets are included. You would need to check specifics of the kit you are interested in.
I get it now..ok cool..you buy the kits, you don't just buy speakers..ok, any like "main" kits that people like around here? Is the dayton one your building a popular one?
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post #39 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 06:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
I get it now..ok cool..you buy the kits, you don't just buy speakers..ok, any like "main" kits that people like around here?
You know, to be honest I do not see much talk of kits on any forums I am on. I see a lot on the HTGuide.com "Missions Accomplished" designs, and a bit on ZaphAudio.com's designs. I have seen a good bit of talk on kits from Northcreek, but the last I heard about them is that they have stopped selling kits due to slow sales.

There is another kit brand I have heard mentioned a lot, www.gr-research.com/.

I personally really like www.selahaudio.com's kit offerings. They are a really good value. I costed the driver complement of a kit they sell for $950 at ~$720. You add the cost of a typical 3-way crossover to that, and there is not much of a difference. Seems like they are pretty much all like that, there. That is pretty cool.

EDIT:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
Is the dayton one you are building a popluar one?
Well, there are some guys on this forum that have built speakers from that thread. Like:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=646271

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&&#post8129604

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
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post #40 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 06:05 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jonathanb3478
You know, to be honest I do not see much talk of kits on any forums I am on. I see a lot on the HTGuide.com "Missions Accomplished" designs, and a bit on ZaphAudio.com's designs. I have seen a good bit of talk on kits from Northcreek, but the last I heard about them is that they have stopped selling kits due to slow sales.

There is another kit brand I have heard mentioned a lot, www.gr-research.com/.

I personally really like www.selahaudio.com's kit offerings. They are a really good value. I costed the driver complement of a kit they sell for $950 at ~$720. You add the cost of a typical 3-way crossover to that, and there is not much of a difference. Seems like they are pretty much all like that, there. That is pretty cool.
The kit your doing..have you heard it before?

The thing is I'm really not wanting to get serious about building speakers..can I just buy everything, print the schematics, and pay someone to do it? Is that possible? I know its not "diy" but I'm really just looking for a 5.1 system. How much would I pay someone to do this...like $10, $15, $20 an hour? how many hours does it take to complete?
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post #41 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Andyisc00l
The kit your doing..have you heard it before?

The thing is I'm really not wanting to get serious about building speakers..can I just buy everything, print the schematics, and pay someone to do it? Is that possible? I know its not "diy" but I'm really just looking for a 5.1 system.
I have not heard the design I am doing before. I am starting it based on others' reactions to their finished speakers. There are other designs I can switch to (or a kit) if I do not like this one. I could even sell my completed xovers and drivers to someone who wanted to try the kit themselves. I would not be out enough to bother me, if they do turn out not to be my cup of tea.

I know that people have had cabinet makers that are local to them make their enclosures. The thing is, that they can charge a lot, depending on finishing and the exact design you want them to make. Usually they are kitchen cabinet makers, but a garage cabinet maker could do it just as easily. You probably have 10+ companies you could get quotes from, once you have a plan they could follow. They also might want the drivers that go in the holes, so they can measure the flush mount depth themselves for the driver cutouts on the enclosures.

You could have them make unfinished, "raw MDF" cabinets. You could then paint them yourself, if you are up to it. It can be done, but I do not know what it would cost you, really. I would not expect to pay less than $500 for a pair of towers, but that is just a guess.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
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post #42 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 06:29 AM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by jonathanb3478
I have not heard the design I am doing before. I am starting it based on others' reactions to their finished speakers. There are other designs I can switch to (or a kit) if I do not like this one. I could even sell my completed xovers and drivers to someone who wanted to try the kit themselves. I would not be out enough to bother me, if they do turn out not to be my cup of tea.

I know that people have had cabinet makers that are local to them make their enclosures. The thing is, that they can charge a lot, depending on finishing and the exact design you want them to make. Usually they are kitchen cabinet makers, but a garage cabinet maker could do it just as easily. You probably have 10+ companies you could get quotes from, once you have a plan they could follow. They also might want the drivers that go in the holes, so they can measure the flush mount depth themselves for the driver cutouts on the enclosures.

You could have them make unfinished, "raw MDF" cabinets. You could then paint them yourself, if you are up to it. It can be done, but I do not know what it would cost you, really. I would not expect to pay less than $500 for a pair of towers, but that is just a guess.
Very interesting..so - I hear people who actually cut the wood will cut to your dimensions if you wanted them to...so basically the only thing I would be having these people do is cutting holes in the wood? right? I could pretty much do everything else myself?

also when do u think u'll be done with the daytons? you should let me know I'm very interested! Thank you for all your help I really appreciate it.
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post #43 of 44 Old 08-28-2006, 06:50 AM
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Very interesting..so - I hear people who actually cut the wood will cut to your dimensions if you wanted them to...so basically the only thing I would be having these people do is cutting holes in the wood? right? I could pretty much do everything else myself?

also when do u think u'll be done with the daytons? you should let me know I'm very interested! Thank you for all your help I really appreciate it.
Well, I have seen a guy who had a cabinet maker assemble his tower enclosures. The completed speakers included a nice real-wood veneer finish. He would not say what it cost when people on that forum asked, though. Said the builder would not let him. ?

That does not seem to be what you are after, however. Several years ago, I had my friend's dad's employer cut some 3/4" MDF panels to the dimensions I specified, then I assembled it myself. That is more what you are talking about, I guess. That was free for me, since I was only making one sub, and I had a hookup. That might be downright affordable. If you had a list of panel dimensions and quantities, you could call around and get some quotes.

To assemble the speakers, you should have some bar clamps handy, however. Otherwise you might not be able to get good joints. Screws do not agree well with MDF, and it would suck to have to go back and ask for a few more panels from your cutter every once in a while, if you split the MDF with screws. Clamps are the better way to go.

Not sure when I will finish with the first pair of RS TMWW towers. They will be operational before they have their veneer/paint finish on them. Finishing to my standards might take me a good amount of trial and error. I would say I should have a functioning pair before Thanksgiving. It could be faster. It depends on how quick my finances clear up.

Experience is a hard teacher because she gives the test first, the lesson afterwards.
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post #44 of 44 Old 08-30-2006, 01:41 AM - Thread Starter
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Whats like the most expensive DIY project that has specifications..I've found a few professional cabinet makers through craigs list and here... Like $600-900 for the front pairs drivers + crossovers...$600-900 for the back pairs drivers + crossovers..and like $300-400 for the center channels drivers + crossovers...I was thinking about maybe using the Eton kit..11-581 11"" woofer, 5-880 5"" mid/bass and 19SD-1 3/4"" textile dome tweeter..supposidly used in Avalon Eidolon $20k a pair speakers..but they didn't have any designs for a center channel...:-( I was hoping to be able to use something like eton or morel.. something like that...anyone know where I can find some designs for this type of high end?
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