Tried a sealed sub, not for me. LLT looks to be the way to go, so please chime in. - AVS Forum
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post #1 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 01:08 PM - Thread Starter
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title mostly says it. i originally tried the sealed enclosure route as i had never owned one. whilest it does ok, it's not going to accomplish what i want unless i have about 3-7 more of them in my living room. original sub contained a single 12" eclipse sw8200 which i ended up damaging the cone from pushing it too hard , my own stupidity there. sub still performs fine, just has some creases in the cone which i am going to see about replacing.

anyhow, since sealed doesnt seem to cut it in my situation a nice behemoth of an LLT seems to be a good choice. i'm looking for the concert level bass, but still want it to be able to hit the low, lows and remain clean. i'm looking at 15" and 12" drivers. i'd really like to try to keep it to one enclosure, two at most for right now. i'm thinking about going with a sonotube design (but not dead set on it) as i like the looks and would like to keep the woodworking to a minimum. also, when it comes time to move the sub(s) i'm sure i'll be thankful for the relative light weight.

the living room is 20ft x 20ft x 8ft and i already own a behringer ep2500 amp.

i'd like to keep the price of the drivers to ~$400. the price of the enclosure is irrelavent to me as i will purchase and build it as i have a few extra bucks and time.

i'd like to go with two to four 15" drivers, but that would involve multiple sonotube enclosures. what i was considering was getting some 32" diameter sonotube and placing three 12" drivers on the bottom cap as illistrated in the very rough paint shop pic below. 32" sonotube is about the biggest that i can fit through my door. this is merely an idea in attempt to have multiple drivers and keep them all contained in a single enclosure so feel free to offer other suggestions. if i have to i will find a place to put multiple enclosures if it will give me the best results.


i was looking at perhaps fixing my current eclipse and then getting two more (should i go with the 32" sonotube design). i was also looking into the dayton dvc series in both the 12" and 15" flavors and the same goes for the titanic series. your other suggestions are also very welcomed here.

so what do you think guys? shoot me your ideas as to what you think would work best to get that kick in the chest, make your heart skip a beat bass.

thanks
guy

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post #2 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 02:34 PM
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Here's what I got for two Eclipse SW8200s in a 500L enclosure tuned to 14hz with an 8.15" port 32.5" long (400w per driver):



For three of them it would be 750L (or a 32" sonotube 21" high) with a 10" port 32.5" long. That would give you about 120db at 15hz before room gain. How does this look? oops disregard the title of the driver, I forgot to change the name to SW8200.
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post #3 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 02:49 PM
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http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...ht=another+rlp

Same thing happened to me! Good luck.
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post #4 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 02:53 PM - Thread Starter
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i dunno. it looks good to me, but i'm still super green at this and don't interpret the graphs as well as you guys. basically, i should look at the SPLtot line graphed? all the other lines are what add up to make the SPLtot, right?

i thought the one eclipse would satisfy me and it didn't. so, i'm going to rely more on you guys this time around. would three 12's (of any brand) be enough to fill 3200cuft of space with very loud, clean bass? or should i rule them out and look at only 15's. what program are you using to make your graphs derek?

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post #5 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 02:56 PM
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I plotted those using Unibox
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post #6 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 03:16 PM
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Personally, I'd go with a single 15" (like the Rl-p 15", check out Nick53s thread) instead of multiple SW2800s.
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post #7 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 03:20 PM - Thread Starter
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id rather have two to four 15's than one, i don't think a single 15 would suffice either.

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post #8 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 03:47 PM
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OK, at 20hz you got 98db at your seat, with the AVR at 61 and amp 1/2. So..
1 12" 98db
2 12" 104db
3 12" 107db
4 12" 110db

At 3-4" you got 118db at 20, with the same settings. Unfortunately we do not know how much boundary enforcement you are getting. You have it in a corner so it is somewhere between 9-18db. This was also not at full power so it's all guess work. You did warp the cone though, so it is safe to say you pushed past the limits.
Between these numbers and my sims I would say you were getting 110db max from the driver.

Check out this site I just heard about. Fi Audio Look at the Q and SSD 18"s. 120db or 118db from a single driver. (If the specs are correct.)
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post #9 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 04:03 PM - Thread Starter
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look nice and at a very reasonable price. i would be willing to guinea pig them. i'd love to have a couple 18's pounding away.

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post #10 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 04:12 PM
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The thing is one 18"er in a tube would give you the levels you are after. If my numbers are even a little off we are still talking about 116-9db at your seat with one 18" in your room.

At the SSD's price I'm tempted to sell my 15"s!
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post #11 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 04:18 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah, but the ssd's are cheap enough, plus i'll have to buy 12' of sonotube anyhow so why not build two. one to start with and go on and build the second enclosure then slap another sub in there a little later. if ones good, then two is better.

(edit) - wow, the prices are shipping included. even better. i will deffinately give these a go unless someone knows something better.

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post #12 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 06:15 PM
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This is a good driver if you plan on EQ'ing the hell out of it and you can easily buy many of them for cheap. They are what I plan on doing my IB out of.

http://www.mach5audio.com/product_in...4cef24ecde3160
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post #13 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 06:51 PM - Thread Starter
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those deffinately are cheap. i could get 4 of them for the price of one fi. but, how would they compare?

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post #14 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 06:57 PM
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It would probably have comparable output with 4 of those mach5 woofers or 2 of the Fi audio woofers with 21mm Xmax. The prices are pretty much identical too once you factor in shipping.
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post #15 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 07:03 PM
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i could get 4 of them for the price of one fi.

Don't forget the shipping cost from Canada.

Four MJ-18's in a sealed 600l enclosure will be about the same as one Q 18" in a vented 600l enclosure after you EQ the MJ-18's flat. You have to waste 10db of output above 40hz, to EQ them flat.
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post #16 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noremacyug View Post

id rather have two to four 15's than one, i don't think a single 15 would suffice either.

I think you are underestimating what a good vented 15" sub is capable of.

Two would be great though, of course.

Also, maybe I have completely forgotten how to model drivers, but the SSD18 doesn't model well at all.

Why not just get two Rl-p 15s ($250 each if you get two) and build a pair using those? The design is established and the performance is well known.
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post #17 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 07:14 PM
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Also, maybe I have completely forgotten how to model drivers, but the SSD18 doesn't model well at all.

And the RL-p15 does? It isn't that bad.
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post #18 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

And the RL-p15 does? It isn't that bad.

Perhaps I am using incorrect parameters?

What enclosure size/tuning frequency do you believe is "optimal" for the SSD18?
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post #19 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 07:33 PM - Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by derekbannatyne View Post

It would probably have comparable output with 4 of those mach5 woofers or 2 of the Fi audio woofers with 21mm Xmax. The prices are pretty much identical too once you factor in shipping.

by "it" are you referring to the 3 eclipse? also, when i used the sonocalculator and plugged in what you mentioned, it showed me needing 62" long piece of 32" diameter sonotube. perhaps i did something wrong.


keep the recommendations coming guys. some excellent options are being presented.

willd, do you have a link for the rlp15?

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post #20 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 07:36 PM
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willd, do you have a link for the rlp15?

Here.
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post #21 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:02 PM
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RLp15 LLT is an established design. How loud you want to go will tell you how many you need. With one, it's pretty safe to say in room, from tuning till 80hz, you can get up to 113db peaks, with two 119db, with four, 125db. I wouldn't be surprised to see you get more than that, but I'm using fairly conservative estimates to get started with. Better to overshoot than undershoot.

If you aren't too concerned with low end extension or squeezing out as much sound quality as you can, I can design a more King Kong output orientated sub. If you want the extension and sq, I'd stick with the RLp15 LLT.
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post #22 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:10 PM - Thread Starter
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i want the loud output, but i think i'd be willing to sacrifice some of it for the deeper extension. that's why i went sealed originally, because i've always heard that sealed enclosure gives the most accurate bass reproduction. and whilest the sub does great, i'm just asking too much of it for it's size to fill my room with the bass levels i seek. 3 more of the eclipses would likely sound unbelievable, but also becomes somewhat expensive if i were to buy 3 more dayton enclosures and then a second amp to power them with.

(edit) - steve, you dont think the fi 18's would perform as good or better than the rpl? also, i like the idea of 125db, just depends on how much it cost to get there.

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post #23 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:16 PM
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RL-p15's run about $270-285. I gave you the prices in the other thread.
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post #24 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:22 PM - Thread Starter
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yeah, i knew that. i got it mixed up with another driver. simple brain fart.

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post #25 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:26 PM
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simple brain fart.

Yeah, that happens a lot. With so much going on it's hard to keep everything straight. You wanted the 8" bandpass sub, right?
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post #26 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:44 PM
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Where can I find the parameters and pricing of the Fi 18" drivers?
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post #27 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:51 PM - Thread Starter
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http://www.ficaraudio.com/

ssd and q series are the ones that were recommended

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post #28 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 08:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soho54 View Post

Four MJ-18's in a sealed 600l enclosure will be about the same as one Q 18" in a vented 600l enclosure after you EQ the MJ-18's flat. You have to waste 10db of output above 40hz, to EQ them flat.

Here is a projection for my upcoming project using four of the MJ-18's (4 ohm):



1700 liters, 16 Hz tune, 1200 watts. This system is in a family/rec room, which serves as a billiards music system and secondary home theater -- I'm not shooting for the depths of hell with regards to output but it looks pretty dang flat to about 15 Hz. Room gain and perhaps some eq will flatten out the 20-40 Hz area nicely.

Obviously 425 liters x 4 is not for everybody, but I have a unique opportunity to blend the enclosures into cabinetry alongside and behind my RPTV, so they will not stand out as massive speaker boxes in the room.

Not too shabby output for about $300 shipped in drivers! These provide about 10 liters of Vd.
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post #29 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 09:09 PM
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Those MJ 18's sure do look like a real bargain.
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post #30 of 200 Old 09-04-2006, 09:44 PM
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ssd and q series are the ones that were recommended

Hmm, parameters look pretty good, but it doesn't make mention of any special motor technology being used. With up to 28mm excursion, I'd think you'd want something other than just shorting rings - anybody know if they are using any low distortion motor technology?
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